Door Closer Arm

The arm setup looks to be DORMA brand... these guys have had many closers appear and disappear over the past decades. I'll have a look in some old catalogs to see.

What are the dim's of the four mounting screws (horizontal and vertical dims of the rectangle)? There may be something currently available that will fit without drill/tap; I sort of doubt it, but I'll be happy to check for ya.

[edit] Can you remove the base arm from the closer body and assemble the arm to more or less the appropriate length and snap a pic? Dimension loosely, and include an image of the hole where the arm connects to the closer pinion. I might be able to match something to it.

Spacing is:

Horizontal: 7 3/4"

Vertical:

Left/adjuster side: 3/4"

Right side: 1 3/8"

Thanks.

I'm bettin' buying a new one will prove less work for all.

<edit> That'll have to wait till tomorrow. I have a meeting with my masters to go to at City Hall. 7th floor and all: very important.

So, the screws don't for a regular rectangle? Sounds like a Dorma. Many of their older closers were manufactured in Europe for that market and imported to USA.

There may be some replacement arms available. My advice for this sort of problem generally is "Spend thirty bucks or so today, and in two weeks it'll spring a leak. The closer is prolly 20 years old." Might have to get out the drill motor old buddy.

I'm probably just going to buy a new one. (The good news; here at work, drills don't fit my hand. I have "people" for that)

Yes, the building was constructed in the 70's and this part was added in 1988. Probably the original opener.

Gotta go.

Cheers.

Yeah, you can purchase a pretty good closer for around a hundred bucks. Probably is the better way to go.

You're right!

Never mind the search for spare parts.

Considering the age of the closer and the fact that we pay no rent, I'm just going to order a new one.

Also, over the years, I have learned to include the cost of my princely salary in the equation when doing things like this. From a cost standpoint, buying a new closer will be much less expensive than me looking for a spare part.

Thanks for the advice, I'll order one today.

Nothing's ever easy. My horizontal spacing is 7 3/4". Nobody makes a unit that compact any more. The 7/8" vertical spacing is no problem. I can get closers with 8 1/4", 9 1/4" horizontal spacing and so on.

I've been to Home Depot, Lowes and a door and window shop. No luck.

It's hard to get actual hole spacing data on most of the web sites I've checked.

Do you know of a source for one with 7 3/4" horizontal spacing, or do I drill and tap yet another set of holes in the door?

Thanks! BTW, you were right. It's a Dorma. Interesting that in order to see the name the unit must be removed from the door-man.

"Interesting that in order to see the name the unit must be removed from the door-man."

An American manufacturer, LCN, has a closer with 7-1/2" horizontal and 1" vert layout. I can't find anybody on my sheets with a 7-3/4" horizontal. If you can make this work, it is the model 1461 Rw/PA. Template information can be had at the "Downloads" tab in the linked page. A caveat; just because the mounting holes match doesn't mean the geometry of the pinions and arms will be the same... in fact, they seldom are.

I figgered it was a Dorma, looks like one of their various discontinued TS series.

I will send you the name of a better place to look for this thru CR4 IM. These guys deal with this sort of thing all the time, they are sure to give you good advice.

If you can't get any cooperation from them, I'll be glad to cooperate. We ship stuff all over the country.

For now, one of my guys wants to drill the ball out and replace it with a bolt. (I give that a 50/50 chance of successs)

I'll let him play around with it for a few days. It's on the back door and that door is only used by employees, with keys.

Thanks again for your help, I'll keep you posted.

I'll keep in mind what you said about geometry of the new closer.

It's nice to know somebody who knows.

Cheers.

Does not look like a yale security product. I sold them steel for many years. http://www.yalecommercial.com/library/how_to_identify/pdf/42653.pdf Milo

http://tinyurl.com/9bbls2n

http://tinyurl.com/8znyop6

images of antique and vintage closers

I agree with DOORMAN it is a Dorma and as far as I know they are discontinued. Most cases I only use Yale,Norton or LCN. We don't use any of the cheap manufacturers for the reason I don't like to go back for free and replace a closer that was just not designed for the application. Is this door considered to be handicap accessible you need to make sure you are up on the code enforcement for this entry. It isn't worth the headache of putting on a new one and finding out you needed an approved handicap closer and they must be marked with the wheelchair sticker viewable. Duke

LYN l do believe that lcn makes a closer that install's just like yours only one bracket bolts to the door and then the body slides into the bracket and you install the other body bolts in your old holes but I would use sex bolts thru the door to help stablise it on the door. give me a few minute's and I will get the number off the one I just installed two days ago. Duke

Lyn the part number that I installed the other day is LCN 1461. It will hand left or right and it is not that much of a problem to install it went on in about 20 min. It also includes a top plate for the top jam mount. I went back to your original pic's and I believe that the closer body and the arm are not in the right location that is why it tore out the back of the arm it was trying to use it for a stop. That is not good on the arm or closer. The new closers come with the templates with the correct hole pattern and locations to eliminate this problem.

The bolt might work, as there is always some sloppy movement at that elbow. There is another possibility for repair. The 2 component epoxy putty found usually in plumbings at Home Depot.

Rough up the outside, clean, apply the putty. When it is solid, but not hard yet, clean up the inside, and pop in a greased ring. it will create its own groove. Next day the arm is like new. No new templates, no new holes drilled.

It only takes a bit of artistry. Will last another 20 years.

Won't work it wore out the metal,what makes you think epoxy will hold up any longer if at all. there is way too much pressure at this point to even think about using epoxy in this application.

LOCKDUKE is pretty much on the right track here.

Things like epoxy, J-B Weld... these are patches that are a waste of time. The compression springs inside of these small devices are quite powerful... consider these door closers are capable of pulling closed a four foot (1.2 meter) wide door weighing about 125 pounds (57 Kg) with a tremendous mechanical disadvantage; the pinion is only about 14" (355mm) from the pivot point. I would be surprised if such a repair lasted more than a few days of light use.

Bolt throught the elbow joint will probably last a little longer, but will also fail.

Considering the amount of money at play, and the effort involved to install a differently templated closer, a new closer is clearly indicated. It's not a big deal. LOCKDUKE and I do it several times every week.

Just this morning I ran into this arm on a TACO closer and a GLOBAL both using this type of compression ring holding on the arm I just hadn't thought there were this many closer manufacturers using this arm. Oh well I guess we never realize every thing we work on, when most of the time we are taking it off because it failed.Duke

I agree, not epoxy fix.

But, remember, one of the guys wants to "fix" the existing closer arm.

I know I can buy a new arm, or a new closer unit, when he gives up.

I'm going to humor him, for awhile.

Thanks for all the helpful suggestions.

I may be back for a primer on "selecting the proper door closer" when we give up on the bolt fix. _{(I just have to give the guy a chance to repair the old one first)}

School of hard knocks usually works the best so they learn for the future on futile projects not to reinvent the wheel. I seen to remember learning that way so I try to pass it on to the next gen for the future it worked best for me. Lyn when you are ready to replace let Doorman or myself know and I am sure one of us can supply you with the spec and function you will need for that door so that you wont have to replace near as often. Duke

Oh, I agree, let him have his fun. If he can get it accomplished, it should last for a while. It's already broken, what's the worst that can happen?

With Lyn's luck it will come apart just as he walks thru the door and gets a lump on the top of his head, that would be my luck,

The worst that can happen already did. When it broke, the arm went through the hallway wall.

The problem will be getting a good fit between the bolt and the arm holes.

You'll need a flat washer between the two arm ends where they pivot against each other, and another one on each side of the arms.

A bushing and a shoulder bolt would be ideal, but I want to let him have a go.

Remember there are only 4 employees who use this door.

"The worst that can happen already did. When it broke, the arm went through the hallway wall."

Is there some way to make that the door guy's fault?

The style of hinge looks like a LCN brand closer. You can check the specs of their arms @ lcnclosers.com.

Looks like an all thread rod and Heim Joint will work just fine as a replacement.Use a rod coupling on one end, and duplicate original length with coupling at half thread.This will allow for adjustment after installation.

Simple.Cheap.Effective.

Link Below:http://www.buycheapr.com/us/result.jsp?ga=us6&q=heim+joint+rod+ends

Well, It's fixed for now. I'll give it about 30 days to fail.

Cheers.

From the looks of the bolt diameter I'd give it +-5 days.

Hey, the guy said he could fix it. He didn't say how long it would last.

Not too bad of a fix. My compliments to your guy!

Here's a pic of one of my favorites: An improvised door hold open:

This has got 'Bad Idea' written all over it!

When the bolt wears out, try one of these with a piece of all thread rod of proper diameter and length.Looks like 1/2 inch diameter rod would be about right.(Or whatever the size is of the existing rod that screws into the broken arm.Use a jam nut to lock the rod to the joint.Good for 100 years if you get the chrome-moly with Teflon inserts.

http://www.qa1.net/qa1_motorsports/industrial/rod-ends.html

Well, how's the improvised field repair holding up?