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Transformer Help

11/21/2012 8:32 PM

I want to install a stepup transformer for an elevator at my friends hotel. his old elevator was powered by 3 phase 208, his new elevator is powered by 3 phase 480 wye, the max load for the new setup is around 42 amps. . my question is this,,,,,, he bought a stepup transformer208 primary to 480 secondary. how do i phase it correctly?? do i have to change the tap positions? or are they set up already for the 480 volts at factory??? explain x1 x2 x3 and HO H1 H2 H3, HO SHOULD BE277 NEUTRAL AND I THINK THAT THE H DENOTES THE SECONDARY SIDE OF THE WINDING the load in this case 480 v ? IS THAT CORRECT??? i believe that the x1 x2 x3 would be my primary side feeding the transformer.., Is that correct in this case 208 v ........ i will be feeding a 100 amp 3 pole breaker for the elevator , how do i determine where to place wire #1 wire#2 and wire# 3 on the breaker. it does not appear to be marked in any manner. as to where the wires should go. and also at the main panel that will be feeding the transformer it is not marked as to where the different wires go>>>>> any help would be helpful. also on the inside of the transformer cabinet there is a ground lug attached to the cabinet of the transformer. do i have to pull a seperate ground wire to attach to the lug. or do i just leave it alone???????

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#1

Re: Transformer Help

11/21/2012 9:25 PM

Employ an electrician.

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#7
In reply to #1

Re: Transformer Help

11/22/2012 3:57 PM

thank you.....

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#2

Re: Transformer Help

11/21/2012 10:14 PM

This comes under the category of if you have to ask this fundamental question then you are not qualified to do this work. Hire a licensed local electrician. They will already know the local wiring code to select and place all of the needed circuit protection and disconnects. They will also know how to test the output phases for proper operation sequence.

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#8
In reply to #2

Re: Transformer Help

11/22/2012 3:57 PM

thank you....

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#9
In reply to #2

Re: Transformer Help

11/22/2012 4:00 PM

thank you.....

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#12
In reply to #9

Re: Transformer Help

11/22/2012 5:33 PM

Bravo Gary

I look forward to helping you understand and perform an electrical engineering task one day that won't possibly endanger you and others.

You are very welcome!

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#13
In reply to #12

Re: Transformer Help

11/22/2012 6:15 PM

i am a residential guy, I have been on several commercial jobs.. as of this date i have never installed a stepup transformer. I would never attempt to install any type of equipment without the proper knowledge necessary.. as it could possibly hurt or kill someone. and not to mention that it could do costly damage to a customers system... I have worked with several emaster electricians during the installation process. none have taken the tim to explain the task of properly phasing a 3 phase system...

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#18
In reply to #13

Re: Transformer Help

11/23/2012 7:32 AM

I not sure of your location but, it seems to me that most states and or governments, have some very strict rules when it comes to elevators. Especially when it comes to passenger carrying devices. Before I would place myself in legal jeopardy, I would surely investigate all legal ends 1st. Let alone, not knowing how to do a simple xformer wiring.

Investigate, before you get to far in over your head.

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#3

Re: Transformer Help

11/21/2012 10:15 PM

''...Hi, I want to be thought of as TheElectricMan, so that's what you should call me!

My plan is to install electrical equipment (critical to the safe transportation, of actual live people, in a real world commercial building) and otherwise perform duties approriately assigned to actual electricians......

......but without the drag of all the requisite knowledge and certification.

Please do your part to help me realize my dream of endangering my own life and the safety of others. Help keep the spark alive!....''

.

....or did I misread the post?

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#11
In reply to #3

Re: Transformer Help

11/22/2012 4:02 PM

thank you

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#20
In reply to #11

Re: Transformer Help

11/26/2012 6:03 AM

Your gracious acceptance of (and adaptation in response to) the criticism is commendable.

.

That is an impressive bias toward getting to the right answer at the expense of false ego insurance.

That is a quality few people have enough of..

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#4

Re: Transformer Help

11/22/2012 12:50 AM

Gary, you're working with ac voltage which can not only do some serious damage to you, but can kill you. If you still feel like you'd like to continue, read on.

Transformers work on a very simple principle based on the indirect transfer of energy via electric and magnetic fields. On a step up transformer, the primary will have fewer turns than the secondary. Since you know that you have a delta-wye step up transformer, then the primary is x and secondary is H. We know this, because the delta has three terminals and no ground (see below). We also know this, because your wye has a neutral (not all wye's do) which is denoted by the H0 terminal.

Now to the three phases. A three phase ac source is very simple, consider it as three separate ac sources, each 120 degrees out of phase. A delta configuration is different from a wye - think of a delta as an equilateral triangle with each phase = the leg of the triangle. Since there are three legs in a triangle and no common center point, there is no neutral. Think of a wye as a capital letter Y with each phase connected to the center. A wye doesn't have to have a neutral (no connection to the center of the Y), but yours does. The voltage phase to phase is 480, but the voltage from neutral to each phase is 277.

Be careful of phase shift. A delta to wye transformer creates a natural 30 degree phase shift. This should not have an effect on your elevator, unless there is another transformer down the line. If you hook up a transformer past your wye connection, you will have unwanted currents - be careful. Also, make sure you don't mix us phase two with three on either the input or output. The reason is that your motor will be out of phase. The least of your worries will be an elevator that runs backward. Many other effects can occur, which have the potential for disaster.

So you now have a "crash" course in three phase circuits. This isn't enough information for you to feel confident you can do this properly. For that particular reason, I agree with the guys here when they tell you to hire a qualified electrician. The small amount of money you save isn't worth the potential damage you can cause.

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#6
In reply to #4

Re: Transformer Help

11/22/2012 3:56 PM

thank you for your help!!!! i will be employing a master electrician to make necessary connections!!!!

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#5

Re: Transformer Help

11/22/2012 11:06 AM

garytheelectricman should become garytheelectricstudent before he becomes garythecrispycritter.

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#10
In reply to #5

Re: Transformer Help

11/22/2012 4:01 PM

thank you

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#14
In reply to #5

Re: Transformer Help

11/22/2012 6:22 PM

thanks lyn I appreciate the advice..... in our area it is difficult to get into the union unless you are friend or family. thus getting commercial and or industrial experience is difficult at best....

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#15

Re: Transformer Help

11/23/2012 12:27 AM

As advised by most of those who responded to you, it is better for your frined to employ the services of a licensed electrician instead of taking chances and putting his equipment and the life of whoever will dare to take the risk of installing the transformer. Now for the sake of education, H1, H2, H3 and H0 is the standard marking on the terminals of High Voltage side of the transformer (in your case the 480V). 1, 2, 3 refers to line 1, 2 and 3 respectively while 0 (H0) is the neutral point of a wye connected winding. x1, x2 and x3 is the low voltage terminal of your transformer (208V) and since there are only 3 terminals I believe the low voltage winding is connected delta. The electrician should connect the power cable (208V) phase A to x1, phase B to x2 and phase c to x3 of the transformer. he will then have to connect the H1 to phase A, H2 to phase B and H3 to phase C of the input power of his new elevator. If the new elevator has a neutral terminal, the electrician should wire H0 to the neutral terminal otherwise, he should connect the H0 to ground. The ground terminal of hte transformer should be wired to the system ground for personal protection. Regarding the taps, normall, it is factory set at the norminal voltage which is the 480V so I would suggest that the electrician should not change it immediately. He should change it only when the output voltage (in this case the 480V is below the required value) but make sure that the transformer is fully deeenrgize before he makes any change in the connection. Hope this will help you in assessing if your friend's electrician is doing the right job.

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#16

Re: Transformer Help

11/23/2012 2:01 AM

KISS, simple answer, do the right thing, hire an elevator company to fix the problem.

Elevators transport human bodies. You never ever take any chances on transporting humans. They could be your family going up or down in them. they must be safe.

Do not screw with elevators that carry humans.

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#17

Re: Transformer Help

11/23/2012 5:48 AM

Jim makes a good point....check that the new elevator has all the required certification to carry humans.

I can relate a little story where one stopped between floors but the passengers managed to open the doors and crawl through a gap about 1 foot wide...can you imagine what could happen if it started at that time. Chopped up hotel guests!

Better stay away from this, elevator companies are specialised in all the safety aspects not only electrical. Advise your friend that although you would like to help you could not risk being involved in any consequences of what seems to most of us as reckless behaviour and he should review his hotel guest insurance cover as well as the people who supplied and fitted his new elevator

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#19

Re: Transformer Help

11/24/2012 9:49 AM

i didn't read futher this "I want to install a stepup transformer for an elevator at my friends hotel."

in this instance you are the service provider and your friend is a customer of full value - you should keep it like this (in your mind) until your job sucessfully completed

there's too many stories about friends services /!\/!\/!\

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#21

Re: Transformer Help

11/26/2012 10:56 AM
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Users who posted comments:

Anonymous Poster (1); Autobroker (1); ci139 (1); engineertony (1); Envelope Guy (1); fixitorelse (1); garytheelectricman (8); Jimh77 (1); lyn (1); redfred (2); TonyS (1); truth is not a compromise (2)

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