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Anonymous Poster

Epoxy/Concrete cure time

06/05/2007 4:39 PM

What is the minimum cure time for for concrete when using epoxy fasteners? Specifically, we have a 12 " block wall that has been filled with a mortor mix(not concrete) to a depth of 20". We are using a 2 part epoxy and a 3/4" bolt imbedded 14". It has rained 2 days since the walls were poured. Hilti and Powers say we need a minimum if 28 days before the epoxy can be used. But the GC has decided to put the anchors in just 5 1/2 days after the walls were poured(remember the 2 days of rain also). This is a 30' tall building engineered for over 100 mile per hour winds. My concerns are that the concrete is still green and the anchors will not give the required strength and that concrete should have been used to fill the blocks instead of portland cement and sand. Also, they had to cut out rebar on many holes and used a diamond drill approx 1 3/8" in diameter(more than the recommended 1.5 times the diameter of the anchor bolt). What should my concerns be?

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Associate

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Scotland
Posts: 36
#1

Re: Epoxy/Concrete cure time

06/06/2007 3:28 AM

A number of issues here that you need to consider: 1. if the building was 'engineered' for 100 mph winds as you say then the specifications for materials and workmanship should be clear. Thus if the hollow block fill should be concrete and they have filled it with mortar then you are in deep trouble. 2. where is the rebar you refer to? - persumably in the hollow block and if you have rebar then it will not be very effective of it is subsequently surrounded by mortar instead of concrete - again the design spec will make this clear for you. 3. The rain is immaterial to the issues you have - indeed it will only help to create a good curing environment for your useless mortar mix hollow wall pour! 4. If the bolt manufacturers state clearly that you need to have a 28 day cure - as opposed to a specific strength achieved before you fix and grout the bolts then you had better listen to them - if they pull out they will deny any liability if you have not followed their instructions. However, siuggest you check the instructions and see if they allow the bolts to be fitted once you achieve a given cure strength. I would suggest that the concern in fitting such bolts earlier than 28 days will be associated with shrinkage around the cured epoxy grout post fixing - if that happens your bolt will pull out with ease. 5. same applies to your oversize bolt holes - if this is larger than recommended by the bolt manufacturer you have a potential problem. Sounds like you need to get a grip of your GC - stop the project immediately and ask him how he proposes to rectify the deviations for the design specification before proceeding further. The longer you continue like this the bigger the problem will get.

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Commentator
Technical Fields - Architecture - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Orlando, Florida
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Good Answers: 4
#2

Re: Epoxy/Concrete cure time

06/06/2007 7:12 AM

... and where is your architect in all of this? have you been in consultation with him and the structural engineer? or did you try to "economize" and opt to not use their construction administation services? the questions you are posing are not ones that would get "legal" answers in this forum. These are questions you should be posing to the professionals you hired to develop the documents that the general contractor should be adhering to. In any event, it is up to you as the "owner" to stop the work, neither the architect nor engineer have that authority. where is your building inspector? the authority having jurisdiction should be performing periodic inspections, and while they may not give you an opinion on the withdrawal or shear of your anchors, they will be interested in a wall not built to the engineers' specs.

good luck to you, sounds like you have some consulting to do.

keep us posted

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Anonymous Poster
#3

Re: Epoxy/Concrete cure time

06/06/2007 8:19 AM

Firstly what is your position/job role and what type of building is it? The first reply was right you need to get a grip on your GC, more importantly you need to have a set of preparatory and follow up measures in place for ensuring activities are performed correctly and everyone is on the same page. GC's don't like this, because you can end up highlighting problems that they have, but as a GC I know how much I can benefit from being prepared with my clients and subcontractors alike. Both the CM and the GC must know their spec; egos must not be brought to the table. This does not mean the Architect and Engineering (A&E) consultants are always right. I recently worked on a project, where the A&E made so many mistakes it was unbelievable, mistakes from not performing overlays with utilities and even incorrect flows on AC vents, they had more air coming out of the system than was going in. The CM would not budge from the spec and without any PE's on their team they would not budge. Because they had already accepted and approved the design any changes they had to pay an arm and a leg for. Therefore always check all drawings and spec's thoroughly before accepting and never put yourself or the GC into a corner where you cannot back down. Given the chance some people always chose the rope to hang with.

Using Portland cement is acceptable by ASTM C476 for grouting CMU walls, and the sand is acceptable as a fine aggregate for fine grout mix of 1 part PC to 2-1/4 to 3 parts fine aggregate (1/10 part can be added of hydrated lime), the slump of the mix should be 8 to 11 inches. Regarding your cure time the normal spec requires a compressive strength of 2500psi after 28 days, your final strength will depend upon your water to cement ratio. The 2500 psi can be achieved in a shorter time with correct curing and lower water cement ratio. On applications where the wall is to be used for structural anchoring, it is often necessary to conduct tests on samples to confirm the grout strength, but I do not think the tests are accurate as the grout in the CMU wall loses its moisture a lot quicker through the CMU block than compared to a correctly cured sample.

The normal case in these situations is for the approving architect to sign off on any deviation from the spec. In most cases what the manufacture states is what you must go with. With hole size you should follow the anchor epoxy manufactures guide lines there are enough small errors created when following the correct guide without adding extra by increasing the hole sizes. A 3/4" threaded rod will need a 7/8" diameter hole.

The rebar issue, needs to be planned better, but is it up to the A&E to sign off. For most the site QC is enough.

Although this does not alter the fact there is a standard and a level of quality to maintain. 100mph is not really a difficult or high wind load to design for it is a basic pressure load of 26.5psf. The biggest problem even with timber buildings is windows and roofing shingles. My big concern is someone's trailer flying into my house not the wind pressure. Sorry just tired of CNN showing Hurricane destruction and talking about new higher design criteria which are really still very lax. A Florida university with a big fan or a tie-down company with a C-130 prop, is not a true test of a building withstanding a hurricane, 100mph is still short of the top end of a Cat 2 hurricane.

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Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Washington USA
Posts: 566
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#4

Re: Epoxy/Concrete cure time

06/06/2007 12:36 PM

To specifically address your question "What should my concerns be?"

1. Fastener failure.

2. Structural failure.

3. Injury and or death(s)

4. Liabality. (Financial)

5. Criminal negligence prosecution. (Prison)

It was wise of you to post this as a guest however the hard drive of the computer you used to post may have a record of your activity.

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Anonymous Poster
#5

Re: Epoxy/Concrete cure time

06/06/2007 1:35 PM

28-days represents the typical time frame for PCC to develop design strength. 28-days has nothing to do with rain, PCC will cure under water. However, you will want a cleaned dry surface to bond to. The epoxy will bond to the PCC, but the PCC may not have developed sufficient strength in 5-days to bear the design load, unless a high-early strength mix was used. Sand-Cement Mortar will not develop the strength of Concrete, what was specified by the design engineer. Regarding the reinforcement, you should determine how many bars were comprimised and discuss this with the structural engineer who designed the facility. Keep in mind there is always a FS in the design, and the design loads can be much higher than normally encountered during construction. However, if any the construction or materials are not in conformance with the plans and specification in accordance with the contract you have with the Contractor, you could potentially ask him to tear it all down and construct it correctly or seek damages.

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Anonymous Poster
#6
In reply to #5

Re: Epoxy/Concrete cure time

06/06/2007 5:23 PM

You need to refer to the project spec before stating what the engineer specified, for most grout filled hollow concrete block walls ASTM C476, is the required spec. Although the grout in the block cavities adds strength to the wall on its own, its main function is to tie the rebar into matrix of the wall to increase the walls tensile strength, it doesn't need to be as tough as concrete, but as grout is a similar mix to concrete, it can obtain the same compressive strength as concrete; some bearing grouts achieve 10,000 to 25,000psi when polymers are added to the mix. As with concrete strength is dependant on Cement to other media ratio, Cement to water ratio and the strength of the media used.

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Power-User

Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 157
Good Answers: 1
#7

Re: Epoxy/Concrete cure time

06/07/2007 12:21 AM

Don't sign your name on any thing to do with the servisability of that wall. My second suggestion would be to run like hell as far from that project as you can. Your GC is trying to get someone killed, to save a buck by cutting to many corners.

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