Relativity and Cosmology Blog

Relativity and Cosmology

This is a Blog on relativity and cosmology for engineers and the like. My website "Relativity-4-Engineers" has more in-depth stuff.

You can comment directly on this Blog if the comment/question is relevant. to the topic Comments/questions of a general nature should preferably be posted to the FAQ section of this Blog (http://cr4.globalspec.com/blogentry/316/Relativity-Cosmology-FAQ).

A complete index to the Relativity and Cosmology Blog can be viewed here: http://cr4.globalspec.com/blog/browse/22/Relativity-and-Cosmology"

Regards, Jorrie

Previous in Blog: Black Holes Part 4 - Three Takes on Time   Next in Blog: Average Speed Challenge Solution
Close
Close
Close
17 comments
Rate Comments: Nested

Rocket Challenge Solution

Posted February 14, 2007 11:00 PM by Jorrie

First, the challenge again:

The setup: somewhere in gravity-free space, fit the following sensors into the nose cone of a long rocket: atomic clock as master time base, RF Doppler speedometer and an accelerometer, all interfaced to a computer with a telemetry channel back to base station. Do the same in the tail, obviously out of harms way from the exhaust. Synchronize the atomic clock in the tail to the master clock (i.e., set it to the same reading) and then let it run on it's own.

Assumptions: it's a "long playing" rocket that is programmed to profile the thrust for a low, constant acceleration of (say) 1g for a long time, despite becoming less massive as fuel burns off. The rocket is not appreciably compressed in the longitudinal direction by the acceleration and the lengthwise transient oscillation and vibrations are negligible, i.e., it's a "near rigid body" problem.

The experiment: the rocket is ignited and both computers (nose and tail) start to record the time, speed and acceleration in their respective locations. After many moons, the rocket stops accelerating and at some short (identical) time after detecting the end of acceleration, each computer radios its recorded data back to base station for analysis.

The challenge: Qualitatively predict:

a) how the recorded speed profiles (against recorded time) will differ, if at all;

b) how the recorded acceleration profiles will differ, if at all;

c) how the atomic clocks will differ in time recording for the events of "acceleration starts" and "acceleration stops", if at all.

The short solution:

a) The recorded speed profiles of the nose and tail will be the same, barring a short delay (tens of milliseconds) while the thrust applied to or removed from the tail propagated to the nose at the speed of sound in the rocket body.

b) The acceleration will in principle be different, but with about one part in 10^14 and utterly immeasurable with accelerometers.

c) If the acceleration continued for 3 years, the nose clock will record the duration of the acceleration as one microsecond longer than the tail clock. This is so because the nose clock will gain time on the tail clock by about one part in 10^14.

The long solution:

Figure 1 below shows the (highly exaggerated) situation graphically, taken from a presentation by John Mallinckrodt, Professor of Physics, California State Polytechnic University, Pomona.

Figure 1:

The "flashing rod" (bold red lines) in this diagram represents our rocket. The thin red lines are lines of simultaneity between the front and the rear at successive time intervals.

While the acceleration lasts, the world lines of the front and the rear of the rocket are hyperbolas that share the same vertex (or focus), with the equation:

t^2 = x^2 - σ^2,

where σ is the distance from the vertex at time zero (i.e. rocket launch) and units are chosen so that c=1, e.g., time in seconds and distance in light seconds. When the acceleration stops, the world lines obviously become straight lines.

The salient points of this diagram are:

· Each red line of simultaneity cuts the world lines of the two ends at the same angle - meaning that the two ends measure the same speed at moments that they perceive as simultaneous. The base station will not agree that they measured those speeds simultaneously.

· The proper (felt) acceleration is proportional to 1/σ, so it is always smaller for the front end than for the rear end. So the two accelerometers measure different accelerations.

· The time of the front end gets ahead of the rear end; in other words, the originally synchronized clocks do not remain synchronized and the front clock measures a longer acceleration time than the rear clock. This is consistent with the fact that the front of the rocket measures a lower acceleration over a longer time.

Conclusion

All of the above are solid mainstream relativity, although it may be relatively difficult to accept at face value. To make it more palatable, remember that the equivalence between acceleration and gravity also dictates this behavior. Over short distances, a normal, non-uniform gravitational field causes the same result for accelerometers and clocks as what happens in lengthwise linear acceleration. This is perhaps the most important insight to be taken from this rather 'esoteric through experiment'.

Linear acceleration is discussed more fully on the website Relativity 4 Engineers.

The Blog is open for questions (or overripe tomatoes…)

Reply

Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.
Anonymous Poster
#1

Re: Rocket Challenge Solution

02/15/2007 7:29 AM

Hi Jorrie, SL here.

I like that diagram of Mallinckrodt, but one thing that I don't understand is: if those lines of simultaneity means that the nose and tail clocks read the same time and they also measure the same speed, then their proper accelerations must also be the same - isn't proper acceleration as measured on the spot, by the accelerating observer?

SL

Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Aerospace Engineering - Retired South Africa - Member - The Rainbow-nation Engineering Fields - Engineering Physics - Relativity & Cosmology Popular Science - Cosmology - The Big Picture!

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Pretoria, South Africa
Posts: 3804
Good Answers: 69
#2
In reply to #1

Re: Rocket Challenge Solution

02/15/2007 1:34 PM

Hi SL, it's an understandable concern.

Simultaneity under acceleration is quite complex; the red lines do not represent identical clock readings on the nose and the tail clocks. The nose clock will steadily record more time between events on those red lines than the tail clock. By the end of acceleration, the tail clock will have to be advanced to read the same time as the nose clock, following the Einstein clock synchronization method for inertial frames.

The lines of simultaneity represents what two inertial observers that are momentarily co-moving with the nose and the tail of the rocket would regard as simultaneous. Since they are inertial movers, they can use the Einstein synchronization to determine simultaneity - the accelerating observers cannot do that!

Hope it clears it somewhat!

Regards, Jorrie

__________________
"Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge." -- Kahlil Gibran
Reply
Anonymous Poster
#3
In reply to #2

Re: Rocket Challenge Solution

02/16/2007 10:24 AM

Hmmm... sounds very confusing to me! You said "The lines of simultaneity represents what two inertial observers that are momentarily co-moving with the nose and the tail of the rocket would regard as simultaneous."

What exactly does "momentarily co-moving" observers mean? And how would they know what's simultaneous and what not?

I think I need the headache pills now!!

SL

Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Aerospace Engineering - Retired South Africa - Member - The Rainbow-nation Engineering Fields - Engineering Physics - Relativity & Cosmology Popular Science - Cosmology - The Big Picture!

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Pretoria, South Africa
Posts: 3804
Good Answers: 69
#4
In reply to #3

Re: Rocket Challenge Solution

02/16/2007 1:28 PM

Hi SL, I'm sorry to hear about the headache!

You asked: "What exactly does "momentarily co-moving" observers mean? And how would they know what's simultaneous and what not?"

A "momentarily co-moving observer" normally refers to an inertial observer that, at a specific instant moves at the same velocity as an accelerating observer.

It's like a train running at a constant speed next to a highway, moving faster than your car. Before the train passes you completely, you accelerate until you move faster than the train. At some point, your speed must, for an instant, exactly match that of the train. For that instant, an observer on the train was your co-moving observer.

Since the train runs at a constant speed, observers at the front and at the back of the train can easily synchronize their clocks. They simply measure the distance between them and send a light signal at a specific time. Using Einstein's method of synchronization, they set their clocks to read the same time simultaneously…

Is the headache any better?

Regards, Jorrie

__________________
"Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge." -- Kahlil Gibran
Reply
Anonymous Poster
#10
In reply to #4

Re: Rocket Challenge Solution

02/18/2007 1:08 PM

Hi Jorrie, yea, it makes some sense.

However, its still difficult to accept that on the same, basically incompressible rocket, the nose and the tail measure different accelerations (using accelerometers).

I'll have to think/study this a bit more.

SL

Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Aerospace Engineering - Retired South Africa - Member - The Rainbow-nation Engineering Fields - Engineering Physics - Relativity & Cosmology Popular Science - Cosmology - The Big Picture!

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Pretoria, South Africa
Posts: 3804
Good Answers: 69
#11
In reply to #10

Re: Rocket Challenge Solution

02/19/2007 12:04 PM

Hi SL, your trouble is not unique - this is one of the most tricky questions in special relativity!

In your study of the effects, you may want to look at my website's download on Linear Acceleration (free pdf chapter from the eBook), especially section 3.5, page 58. Don't worry, it's not a 60 page document; the pages and sections come from the eBook - the download is only 7 pages long!

Regards, Jorrie

__________________
"Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge." -- Kahlil Gibran
Reply
Anonymous Poster
#12
In reply to #11

Re: Rocket Challenge Solution

02/21/2007 1:44 PM

Quite frankly, I think that what is said about the accelerations of the nose and the tail of a 'rigid rocket' (whatever that may mean) being not identical, is BS!!

How on Earth or space can a rigid thing not have the same accelerations at its nose and its tail??? (Barring of course possible transient effects at the start and end of acceleration)

RB

Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Aerospace Engineering - Retired South Africa - Member - The Rainbow-nation Engineering Fields - Engineering Physics - Relativity & Cosmology Popular Science - Cosmology - The Big Picture!

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Pretoria, South Africa
Posts: 3804
Good Answers: 69
#13
In reply to #12

Re: Rocket Challenge Solution

02/22/2007 3:38 AM

Hi RB, you wrote: "How on Earth or space can a rigid thing not have the same accelerations at its nose and its tail???"

Well, what the mainstream physics tells us is that they will differ. There is some dispute over this, but the majority of peer reviewed publications that mention this, hold this view.

There is, as far as I could establish, a small dissident group of scientists that vigorously disagree, but it looks like the two sides has just agreed to differ... Search Wikipedia for Bell's paradox, which is only a slight variation of this 'rocket challenge'.

Regards, Jorrie

__________________
"Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge." -- Kahlil Gibran
Reply
Anonymous Poster
#14
In reply to #13

Re: Rocket Challenge Solution

02/25/2007 5:42 AM

Jorrie, I think the issue here is that the mainstream relativists equate linear acceleration with a gravitational field, or then at least with a 'uniform gravitational field', whatever thats supposed to mean.

I think it is very easy the show that a constantly accelerating frame of reference is not equivalent to a gravitational field, not even a uniform one. If I'm not mistaken, you yourself has said something to this effect in one of your posts on the twin paradox.

RB

Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Aerospace Engineering - Retired South Africa - Member - The Rainbow-nation Engineering Fields - Engineering Physics - Relativity & Cosmology Popular Science - Cosmology - The Big Picture!

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Pretoria, South Africa
Posts: 3804
Good Answers: 69
#15
In reply to #14

Re: Rocket Challenge Solution

02/26/2007 1:53 AM

Hi RB, you wrote: "I think it is very easy the show that a constantly accelerating frame of reference is not equivalent to a gravitational field, not even a uniform one. If I'm not mistaken, you yourself has said something to this effect in one of your posts on the twin paradox"

Yep, I did, but that was in the context of the twin paradox, where it is invalid to say that the away twin at the turnaround suddenly finds herself in a 'uniform gravitational field' and so all clocks that is at a higher gravitational potential must run faster than her clock.

However, a rocket being accelerated at 1g in free space feels and measures the same stresses, accelerations differences and clock rate differences between nose and tail as the same rocket sitting on the launch pad.

This may perhaps only be valid as a first order approximation, but it is sufficient to prove that the differences in accelerometer readings and clock rates in the nose and tail of the accelerating rocket are real.

I agree with you that it is difficult to define a 'uniform gravitational field'. As a matter of fact, there seems to be no single generally accepted definition among the mainstream relativists. I prefer to leave it to them...

Regards, Jorrie

__________________
"Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge." -- Kahlil Gibran
Reply
Associate
Engineering Fields - Chemical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: The high plains of Colorado
Posts: 53
Good Answers: 1
#16
In reply to #15

Re: Rocket Challenge Solution

07/26/2009 7:11 PM

Ok, let me know if I am way off on this, but I thought in Special Relativity there is no difference between an object in space that is accelerating at 1g and one that is at rest on the earth's surface. Both objects feel/have the same experience. So, I live up here in Colorado(mountains) and I have a friend who lives in New York(sea level). Say I talk to him on the phone(call that our "launch" or event). When I talk to him again, after many years, will my clock be ahead of my friends because I am like the nose of the rocket and he is at the tail??? Or will this phenomona never be noticed because all possible observers are either in my inertial frame or his? Or am I just going on some crock-pot talk?

It is greatly appreciated that you spend time to explain this fascinating knowledge with the rest of us. I just got your book and can't wait to dive into it!

Dan

Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Aerospace Engineering - Retired South Africa - Member - The Rainbow-nation Engineering Fields - Engineering Physics - Relativity & Cosmology Popular Science - Cosmology - The Big Picture!

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Pretoria, South Africa
Posts: 3804
Good Answers: 69
#17
In reply to #16

Re: Rocket Challenge Solution

07/26/2009 10:57 PM

Hi Dan, you wrote: "... but I thought in Special Relativity there is no difference between an object in space that is accelerating at 1g and one that is at rest on the earth's surface."

This is only true over very short distances (Einstein talked about "infinitesimal regions of spacetime"). The reason is that normal gravity produces tidal forces, differences between the gravitational vectors at different places. When you stand on Earth's surface, the gravity at your feet is stronger than at you head. In such a case, an 'ankle watch' will tick slower than an technically identical wrist watch. This has been indirectly proven by many experiments.

As I said before, if this was not true, the whole of Einstein's relativity theory must be false - and we are sure that it is not. There may be ultra-strong field corrections that are still to be made, but it succeeded in every presently testable prediction.

So, yes your watch on the highlands is running faster than your friend's at sea level, but it does not matter for two reasons: (i) it's negligible and (ii) we are all setting our watches to UT + constant anyway.

-J

PS: enjoy the reading and you are welcome to post questions here (preferably in the FAQ section, as indicated in the Blog header).

__________________
"Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge." -- Kahlil Gibran
Reply
Anonymous Poster
#5
In reply to #2

Re: Rocket Challenge Solution

02/16/2007 11:11 PM

Hi Jorrie, the first question is what makes the tail different from the nose? For example, suppose that two identical rockets are located in such a way that the nose of the first touches the tail of the other. Both are accelerated in identical manner, referring to Fig. 1, where should I locate the world line of the second rocket. Are the trajectories as seen from a stationary observer different for each rocket? If so, why there is a difference? Now suppose that you have many mini-rockets each one powered in the same manner, is this situation different from just one long rocket having a evenly distributed engine all along its length? If so, why?
Thanks.

LB

Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Aerospace Engineering - Retired South Africa - Member - The Rainbow-nation Engineering Fields - Engineering Physics - Relativity & Cosmology Popular Science - Cosmology - The Big Picture!

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Pretoria, South Africa
Posts: 3804
Good Answers: 69
#6
In reply to #5

Re: Rocket Challenge Solution

02/17/2007 1:27 AM

Hi LB

Wow, you asked the most difficult questions that are available in special relativity!

Prof. John Mallinckrodt deals with this in his talk on acceleration, but unfortunately, not all his slides came out readable on the referenced web page.

In short, you noticed that the curvature of the nose of the rocket is less than that of the tail. A second identical rocket, starting tail to nose with the first one and maintaining the exact same acceleration profile, will have the same two curves, just offset by on rocket length. Hence, its tail will pull away from the first rocket's nose due to the higher curvature the tail.

This is essentially Bell's paradox - i.e., a string between on the two rockets will break, as discussed on a previous Blog post on Bell's Spaceship Paradox.

You question on the "many mini-rockets each one powered in the same manner", is dealt with superficially by Mallinckrodt's talk, but it boils down to the concept of Born rigid motion, where a solid body is so accelerated that there are no stresses created inside it. This is the closest that one can get to a hypothetical "perfectly rigid body".

In Born rigid acceleration, every "mini-rocket" must have a different acceleration profile, getting smaller towards the front. See this Wikipedia article on Born rigidity.

Regards, Jorrie

__________________
"Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge." -- Kahlil Gibran
Reply
Guru
Australia - Member - New Member Fans of Old Computers - H316 - New Member Hobbies - Model Rocketry - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Port Noarlunga, South Australia, AUSTRALIA (South of Adelaide)
Posts: 3048
Good Answers: 75
#7

Re: Rocket Challenge Solution

02/18/2007 5:22 AM

Hi Jorrie,

Did you see the article about professor Subahssh Kak who claims to have resolved the twins paradox?

Evidently he is modifying the way that the motion is defined so that it includes other objects not just the twins in relation to each other.

__________________
An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.
Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Aerospace Engineering - Retired South Africa - Member - The Rainbow-nation Engineering Fields - Engineering Physics - Relativity & Cosmology Popular Science - Cosmology - The Big Picture!

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Pretoria, South Africa
Posts: 3804
Good Answers: 69
#8
In reply to #7

Re: Rocket Challenge Solution

02/18/2007 9:38 AM

Hi Masu,

I have not read the article, just some physics forum comments on it, but it looks like a 'crackpot' idea - the twins paradox was solved some 100 years ago!

It appears to be an attempt to bring in some absolute frame of reference, something that relativity can't stand...

Regards, Jorrie

__________________
"Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge." -- Kahlil Gibran
Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Aerospace Engineering - Retired South Africa - Member - The Rainbow-nation Engineering Fields - Engineering Physics - Relativity & Cosmology Popular Science - Cosmology - The Big Picture!

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Pretoria, South Africa
Posts: 3804
Good Answers: 69
#9
In reply to #8

Re: Rocket Challenge Solution

02/18/2007 10:21 AM

Hi Masu,

I found the full article and read it. I found that the author has not assumed an absolute frame of reference (as I suspected above), but rather that he has not shown anything at all!

He simply shows that one can distinguish between an inertial and a non-inertial frame by measuring a probability density function of Doppler velocities relative to the distant stars. So what? One can use the seat of your pants (or accelerometers) to do just that!

Regards, Jorrie

__________________
"Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge." -- Kahlil Gibran
Reply
Reply to Blog Entry 17 comments
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

Anonymous Poster (6); danman285 (1); Jorrie (9); masu (1)

Previous in Blog: Black Holes Part 4 - Three Takes on Time   Next in Blog: Average Speed Challenge Solution

Advertisement