How to Grow Engineers

I tend to agree, but I'm now an old fogey... Is it still possible to buy Tinker toys?

I got started with a radio that had a bad solder joint, that I was able to find and repair at age 11, but I'd already been doing Tinker Toys and such for at least 6 years.

Unfortunately, most electronic devices today are so complex that the chances of an 11-year-old repairing one are pretty slim...

I do find the accomplishments of engineering very satisfying, and would recommend the field to anyone who is interested.

I would hope that tinker toys are still around, I'm not sure.

I got started by building a metal detector from a kit when I was about 12-13, but didn't end up going into engineering. I am a die hard tinkerer though.

Around 1968, my Dad's company had, "Bring your kid to work day". I still remember it. There was a sea of identical desks and florescent lights as far as the eye could see. Combine that with well over a hundred engineers, all with identical suits, haircuts and pocket protectors............ Let's just say, I decided that day that I wouldn't be following in his footsteps. I'm sure there are members here that remember that scenario well.

Unfortunately, most electronic devices today are so complex that the chances of an 11-year-old repairing one are pretty slim...

It is a shame. I don't think anyone here could repair these things. They're pretty much factory sealed and designed to be thrown away if they fail. It's not just toys either, it's not even worth the trouble to try to repair a television anymore.

I am relatively new to CR4, but I imagine this topic is broached often. In fact, the reason I joined the forum was due to a similar post on here that I included in my blog a few weeks back:

http://blog.pcsridgway.com/post/Engineering-future.aspx

I don't agree that kids do less "hands on tinkering", but perhaps that is because I reside in a rural area where most kids still do a lot of "tinkering'. Ironically, I spent half an hour the other day asking a high school kid about re-gearing the rear end of my Jeep and shortening a driveshaft.

As the earlier reply mentioned, some people are born with a "knack" for taking things apart and reassembling them. The problem is that it really doesn't make sense to become an Engineer anymore, because I think the job description has changed. As the general consumer started to become more price sensitive with the introduction of a global supply chain, the emphasis shifted from making ground breaking technological improvements to taking a dime out of the raw material cost (blame it on Drucker and Welch). A good metaphor would be that we now are rebuilding a Ford Pinto rather than a Boss 302 Mustang. It just doesn't sound fun, and it doesn't help that in comparison to many other careers, Engineers are underpaid and overworked.

Don't get me wrong, I know there are Engineering jobs that are fun and exciting and well paid for that matter, but I would argue that the majority are focusing on efficiency improvements, cost outs and mundane paperwork. In addition to an arduous and expensive college education, it just doesn't add up for kids to take the Engineering career path anymore. I did it, and I regret it whole heartedly. I would have much rather became a Pharmacist and did the Engineering at home rebuilding cars, updating my boiler systems and tinkering with lawnmowers.

That is just my opinion and in the spirit of full disclosure I am probably part of that "video game" generation.

Great article.

Your post definitely rings true.

My Dad was an electrical engineer and loved the hands on work and general tinkering.

He worked for a large US corporation for most of his adult life. He eventually found himself in management, where he made good money, but hated. He ended up spending most of his career mired in corporate bureaucracy. One of the most frustrating things for him to deal with, were his non-engineer bosses telling him to take cost cutting measures that he knew made no sense, but couldn't get them to understand, so he spent a lot of time swimming upstream within the corporate culture.

In the end, he was laid off less than two years from retiring with his full pension and benefits. That pretty much cemented his disenchantment with engineering as a career choice.

That said, I would still encourage young people to get into engineering. For the true tinkerers, pursue a field where you can get your hands dirty on a regular basis, as opposed to being stuffed in some cubicle somewhere. The pay may or may not be as good, but you'll have a much more satisfied feeling at the end of the day.

So true, similar thing happened to my Dad.
I escaped the same fate by moving to a smaller company as the only technical guy, I've reduced my working week and am slowly 'stealth retiring'.
The sad thing is my Dad stopped tinkering and has just sat on his arse for 20 years.
Del

The reason our young people not as interested in becoming engineers is the hand skills aspect, the big picture from rural and city kids is the opportunity to start isnt there. Let me explain; our society has created roadblocks to learning the basics by making even basic mechanical things so complex that to fix them is impossible. The sparkplugs on my toyota arent like normal spark plugs of yester year, the bike is computerized and the lawnmower...

I hear ya about the new performance for clean air requires the complexity, but here in california if you do change anything on the car and it doesnt pass smog your screwed.

There are other factors, disposable society, things made not to be fixed, things made so they cant be fixed, parts so expensive you're better off buying new than fixing it.

All of this adds up to most young people not having any hand skills, and it not only impacts engineers but Orthopedic surgeons and prosthetists, these 2 profession require massive hand skills and you dont want to go to one that doesnt have them.

Another reason is parents are too soft on their kids and give them everything that they want instead of having them learn to make their toys. I have seen way too many welfare kids with a room full of toys they never play with and an xbox hooked up to a TV in their room.

Thankfully we have a huge population of 3rd world youth with hand skills, the comparasons are obvious, see the above.

Engineering is the art & science for the betterment of all. Main element of engineering is creativity assisted by hands on experience. There is a gap between young students from rural areas and cities due to socio economical environment. this gap needs to be reduced. In developing countries like India number of institutions offering engineering courses are growing exponentially without any quality check. Engineering education has been commercialized. Engineering are manufactured without really understanding the real meaning of engineering. Role of teachers particularly primary school teachers is very crucial to encourage the young minds to train with hands on activity to improve the creativity minds of younger generation towards engineering as profession.

Some ancient Greek literature i was reading up on, but it rings true if you substitute architect with engineer. 1. The architect should be equipped with knowledge of many branches of study and varied kinds of learning, for it is by his judgement that all work done by the other arts is put to test. This knowledge is the child of practice and theory. Practice is the continuous and regular exercise of employment where manual work is done with any necessary material according to the design of a drawing. Theory, on the other hand, is the ability to demonstrate and explain the productions of dexterity on the principles of proportion. 2. It follows, therefore, that architects who have aimed at acquiring manual skill without scholarship have never been able to reach a position of authority to correspond to their pains, while those who relied only upon theories and scholarship were obviously hunting the shadow, not the substance. But those who have a thorough knowledge of both, like men armed at all points, have the sooner attained their object and carried authority with them.

I have to concur with an earlier poster, long hours, arduous un-necessary paperwork, political roadblocks, un-knowing and un-caring management among other complaints has driven me to regret ever choosing engineering. I have had the unfortunate experience of moving from company to company in my carreer have watched the trend of longer hours for less pay steadily increase. I have no long term expectation of a stable carreer as the turmoil in the automotive industry is here to stay. It may quiet down and receed below the surface, just not go away. I plan to get a new degree and move to a different field as soon as I can. Would I recommend Engineering as a career? No, not really.

You can't be an engineer if you can't pass calculus.

When I was a freshman in 1968, my college, Florida Tech, had about 18 Calculus I sections and two remedial "Intro to college math" sections. When I graduated in 1972, the ratio was reversed: the majority of entering freshmen had to take the baby math classes and only a few went directly into calculus. I would guess that forty years later, the situation is even worse.

I am from the same batch and of same thinking as well.

I think it is high time to think of reengineering the so learned engineering itself.

Clearly there are two parts: concepts and details. They are to be separated and be encouraged even at the university levels.

Engineering concepts (and crafts required to exercise them) can be compared with arts like painting, music and like. Young brains should manifest engineering concepts as they like and should enjoy them as fun. Details like calculus, trigonometry and like should not scare such free minds. Then perhaps the true Engineering would have a fresh re-life.

Four years back, an youngster, a relative of mine, came out with engineering degree very meritoriously, approached me to take some tips for interviews. He could vomit carnot equations, rankin's efficiency etc, but did not know the actual difference between two stroke and four stroke engines. He joined in IT firm after having a short course on Oracle. He is now a group leader and gets good compensation. His engineering degree helped him to come to this position but where is his engineering knowledge?

I believe that all engineers (including myself), are resposible for sharing the love for engineering. Any chance I get to influence someone to get them into engineering I try to tell them what I see as engineering. I explain what I live, lived, experienced, done, etc. etc to force them to ask questions. If I have any objects that I have made I show them and I also explain the principles as simply as possible. To sum it up I end with these words:

Passion drives us to do things. My passion is to think of something, build it and then feel the sense of accomplishment of having built something that works that has my stamp on it.

All very good discussion.

The original query was:

"Do you agree that most children aren't exposed to influences that would naturally channel them into engineering? And, if so, what can be done to change that situation?"

I think the consensus is that Engineering has changed, not necessarily for better or worse, but has changed. Are children exposed to this "new" style of Engineering, absolutely. My college training was relatively recent and I can confirm that there is less emphasis on Calculus and more emphasis on communication and team building. Are kids exposed to that on a daily basis, absolutely. Should the question instead be, is this a good thing that Engineering is headed in that direction? Has the pendulum swung too far in getting away from "the hundreds of engineers with pocket protectors" to a bunch of middle managers who can talk a good game but can't rewire a radio? I can't say I know that answer myself, but we will soon find out I am afraid.

I don't think you can "grow" Engineers. As others have mentioned, you become mentors for young kids considering the field, you let your kid turn the wrench on the car rather than hold it, and you encourage creativity in children (whether it is technology, art, or music). The engineering spirit needs to exist and we can only provide fertile ground for that seed to grow.

One potential area for improvement I see is in Secondary/High School education. The reality is that the most intelligent never consider teaching. Until the quality of the education goes up, you will see more and more students in remedial classes. Until we provide incentive to teach, the quality will remain low. Unfortunately, as they say, "Those who can't do, teach."

Alternatively, if you make Engineering a $200k annual salary type job, you will "grow" Engineers in flocks!

Growing engineers... you obviously have to start at the root, provide fertile soil - opportunities to fix simple things (we dont make simple things to take apart and fix anymore). Have a seed - the need to use the hands to fix, build, create (most things are disposable, no need or impossible to fix), building toys can still be found, but they are hard to find and really expensive. My suggestion would be to 1) get build/maker style toys in the hands of the youth ages 4-10 y/o. 2) Put shop classes back in schools.

I assume the question was asked about USA citizens. When you look at the world ranking of the US compared to the rest of the world it's pretty sad. I think that's a good place to start looking for answers/improvement.

USA Ranking (I believe this is 2009 data)

Reading 33rd.

Math 27th.

Science 22nd.

Growing food is more important than "growing" engineers. That's a skill that should be part of a "good" education. Backyard gardens are a source of vine-ripened food, which no supermarket produce can compare with. And more nutritious I suspect. Certainly tastier!

Engineers should get just as much respect as "scientists." They take the scientific principles and use them to improve the daily lives of people. But there is a big problem with engineering. There is way too much development of products that, in the end, become landfill fodder. (In the same way that software engineers drive us crazy with constant "improvements" and "upgrades," when is enough enough with technological gadgetry?) I am not a Luddite. I just think that, first and foremost, engineering should serve practical needs and necessities rather than whims.

What we should be concerned with is turning out ideal human beings. Of course, using what ideal? That is something that every generation should ponder. Usually, it is reflected upon only as one generation gets near its end. Younger people are too busy going full steam ahead based on the path that has been laid down by the previous generation -- or not, as the '60s generation thought they were not doing. So the older generation looks back and wonders if they made good choices. Did they have sins of omission as well as commission? Should their "world-view" have been different? Is the world better off or worse off from their custody?

As my career and life wind down I see human values as much more important than scientific understanding or implementation -- which is what engineers do. The popular concern that we don't have enough scientists and engineers is just (paradoxically) plain myopic. Is life a race to see who can produce the most technological devices? To what end? End disease? End all suffering? Provide permanent peace and happiness? Can technology do all of this?

There are feelings associated with "discovering" truths. Science does provide that on a level. But the deepest questions about life can't be answered by "hard" science... or engineering. Most people are too busy to think about these questions. They do have them come up as they are growing up because children are perceptive and do wonder... "What is life? Was there a beginning to all of this? Is there life beyond this world of senses?" And they usually get one of three answers: "There are no answers in this life." (agnostics) or "God did it all and you'll find out all the answers when you die." (most religionists) or "Here are our current theories." (scientists) Then they grow up, get busy with making a living and having a family, and only (maybe) revisit these questions in a serious manner as they get near death. The reality of the finiteness of our life here finally is forced upon us. Most are content to end their life with one of these three answers. A relative few choose to devote some time to investigating further.

My "ideal" human would be one who cares about knowledge in general -- not just "technical" knowledge. One who never loses sight of these deeper questions. One who realizes that humans are not just machines. There's something else to us. Life passes much more quickly than one imagines when young. It will seem like one day you wake up and so much of life was a blur. And that, to a large degree, is due to the pace of life we've created with all of our technology. We should worry more about human progress on the intangible level -- are we becoming more peaceful and agreeable with one another? Can we "prove" if there is anything beyond this life? If not, then it we have to ask, has all the technology and scientific knowledge really satisfied all of our human cravings?

While I certainly don't think ONLY playing video games would foster an engineer, I find that playing video games did help me to some extent. As you play a game you get use to the rules and barriers designed by the programmer. Much like the rules that govern our world. Then you try to get around them, much like the rules that govern our world.

There are plenty of youtube video's and what not showing people taking advantage of these glitches. Who hasn't gotten stuck behind a wall or something like that?