Roger's Equations Blog

Roger's Equations

This blog is all about science and technology (with occasional math thrown in for fun). The goal of this blog is to try and pass on the sense of excitement and wonder I feel when I read about these topics. I hope you enjoy the posts.

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Zombie Elephants and Other Science

Posted January 18, 2011 2:08 PM by Bayes

Species go extinct. In the roughly 4 billion years that life has existed on Earth, over 99% of species have gone the way of the Dodo. Some go by fire, others by ice, but however they go, they don't come back... at least until the Japanese bring them back.

Japanese researchers will launch a project this year to resurrect the long-extinct mammoth by using cloning technology to bring the ancient pachyderm back to life in around five years time.

The researchers will try to revive the species by obtaining tissue this summer from the carcass of a mammoth preserved in a Russian research laboratory, the Yomiuri Shimbun reported.

"Preparations to realize this goal have been made," Akira Iritani, leader of the team and a professor emeritus of Kyoto University, told the mass-circulation daily.

Under the plan, the nuclei of mammoth cells will be inserted into an elephant's egg cell from which the nuclei have been removed, to create an embryo containing mammoth genes, the report said.

The embryo will then be inserted into an elephant's uterus in the hope that the animal will eventually give birth to a baby mammoth.

The Article Continues Here

It's worth noting that the Neaderthal's Genome has been roughly sequenced. This means it's only a matter of time before scientists are confronted with the morality of cloning and bringing to term a Neaderthal. As shocking as the idea of a walking, talking cloned Neanderthal may seem to us, it may be a bit anticlimatic. Recent research has found that the Neanderthals were not that different than modern humans. An interesting excerpt from the article reads:

Any human whose ancestral group developed outside Africa has a little Neanderthal in them – between 1 and 4 per cent of their genome, Pääbo's team estimates. In other words, humans and Neanderthals had sex and had hybrid offspring. A small amount of that genetic mingling survives in "non-Africans" today: Neanderthals didn't live in Africa, which is why sub-Saharan African populations have no trace of Neanderthal DNA.

It's impossible to know how often humans invited Neanderthals back to their cave (and vice versa), but the genome data offers some intriguing details.

"It must have been at least 45,000 years ago," says David Reich, a geneticist at Harvard Medical School who was involved in the project. That's because all non-Africans – be they from France, China or Papua New Guinea – share the same amount of Neanderthal DNA, suggesting that interbreeding occurred before those populations split. The timing makes the Middle East the likeliest place where humans leaving Africa and resident Neanderthals did the deed.

Article Continues Here

It may well be within our lifetimes that Neanderthal DNA is used to bring a Hominid species back from extinction. Should we be worried about mad scientists cloning dinosaurs, strapping lasers on their heads, and using their cloned dino-armies to conquer the world? First of all get a hold of yourself, that's ridiculous. Secondly no, Jurassic Park may exist in the far future, but for right now there is no method for obtaining dinosaur DNA.

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#1

Re: Zombie Elephants and Other Science

01/18/2011 10:18 PM

Were Mammoths pro or anti science? :D

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#3
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Re: Zombie Elephants and Other Science

01/18/2011 11:30 PM

I don't know about the Mammoths but if they bring back the Neanderthals wont they put countless managers and CEO's out of jobs due to unfair competition?

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#2

Re: Zombie Elephants and Other Science

01/18/2011 11:29 PM

"....the morality of cloning and bringing to term a Neaderthal."

Hey there Roger. We often hear how human intervention into such things is a moral issue. On what grounds exactly is this a moral issue?

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#4
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Re: Zombie Elephants and Other Science

01/19/2011 8:20 AM

I guess I would look at it like this. The natural habitat of Neanderthals no longer exists. We would be bringing the Neanderthal into a world where no other Neanderthals exist. Such a Neanderthal would no doubt be confined for scientific study, would have no human rights despite the fact that it would most likely be very much similar to ourselves in terms of emotions and reasoning, would have no hope for advancement, achievement, etc.

In a larger sense, there is no telling what introducing extinct species into the world will do to existing ecosystems (assuming we get to the point where we breed and release them).

So yeah, there might be some moral implications involved in this. Just because we can do something doesn't necessarily mean we should do something, right?

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#5
In reply to #4

Re: Zombie Elephants and Other Science

01/19/2011 8:52 AM

On the other hand, such a creature would probably be treated like royalty -- wouldn't have to work, well fed, free education, gratification on demand, etc.

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#6
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Re: Zombie Elephants and Other Science

01/19/2011 9:18 AM

If by "treated like royalty" you mean subjected to constant tests, constantly monitored and severe limitations of where it can go, then sure. By the way, the conditions you mentioned above (well fed, free education, gratification on demand) is a pretty accurate description of prison.

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#16
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Re: Zombie Elephants and Other Science

01/19/2011 8:24 PM

Aren't you assuming that some institution would have legal rights to hold another human prisoner? Sounds like the old libertarian argument with regard to ownership of slaves.

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#17
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Re: Zombie Elephants and Other Science

01/19/2011 8:52 PM

Since when did libertarians support the right of individuals to own slaves?

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#20
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Re: Zombie Elephants and Other Science

02/03/2011 1:21 PM

Look at the new Cook County Correctional facility in Illinois. Brand new, spacious and well equiped. If that's what the "new" prisons are heading towards, then by all accounts, Mr. Neandertalis will be quite happy.

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#21
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Re: Zombie Elephants and Other Science

02/03/2011 1:47 PM

"Yeah, people locked up in prison really have it good" Roger responded sarcastically.

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#11
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Re: Zombie Elephants and Other Science

01/19/2011 4:33 PM

I don't see why they would have a hard time fitting in. They where not dumb by any means and in the historical time frame of their existence our ancestors where no different than us as we stand now.

Being the new Neanderthals would be growing up in our modern world from babies they would be learning everything that we learn right from the beginning so from the beginning they would not know a world any different that we do from the day we are born.

If 1 - 4% of most peoples DNA is Neanderthal already that would in my perspective place them as a race of humans not necessarily a whole independent species being they are obviously genetically compatible. To me that means they would have the same rights as the rest of us have being they too are humans as well.

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#12
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Re: Zombie Elephants and Other Science

01/19/2011 5:44 PM

they do

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#7

Re: Zombie Elephants and Other Science

01/19/2011 11:01 AM

So easy a caveman can do it? I see a new Geico commercial coming.

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#8

Re: Zombie Elephants and Other Science

01/19/2011 4:19 PM

Or yet another Jurassic Park sequel.

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#9

Re: Zombie Elephants and Other Science

01/19/2011 4:20 PM

Dont do it! There I voted. I think its a mistake to produce a cloned neandertal. Once out and about, there is no way this person will not have rights. So then this person will be allowed to reproduce, introducing more ancient dna in to the current gene pool. Can we really say for sure this would not be detrimental to our species in say 10,000 years? Would they make good soldiers? Or miners? Are they aggressive? Gee, seems like the last thing we need is more giant aggressive people.

Mastodon steaks? now thats another story. (sorry, couldnt resist)

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#10
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Re: Zombie Elephants and Other Science

01/19/2011 4:28 PM

Hey! NORTHERN EXPOSURE fan!!!!

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#13
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Re: Zombie Elephants and Other Science

01/19/2011 6:15 PM

If they somehow ended up being more aggressive I can see first of them getting drafted into sports like crazy.

A short time after that someone in the sports franchises, such as football, will realize that they can have their own hyper aggressive knuckle dragging social misfits genetic though backs who can rip a linebackers arm off all the while still passing drug tests for a single $5 million one time investment.

They will basically get what they have now but at least these boys will only cost $5 million a life time and will be understood as to why they don't have the best social skills or brains.

More realistically they could very well end up being at the other end being they will be getting raised in and around scientific atmosphere which could very well turn out to be more intellectually suited to them than we think being that environment was not available to them at the time of their last existence.

Odds are they will take to the middle ground and most people will not think of them as any different that we think of each other now. Medium hygiene, awkward social skills out side of whom they work with and not the most interesting to talk to. Good lord, they may become engineers!

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#14
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Re: Zombie Elephants and Other Science

01/19/2011 6:20 PM

Or they could enhance the gene pool :D

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#15
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Re: Zombie Elephants and Other Science

01/19/2011 7:17 PM

I spent a day at the local mall with my 9 year old niece the other day and I would say that in a number of cases monkeys would be able to contribute a positive influence to some members of our gene pool.

(Or else they already did and it was less than a generation or two ago.)

I have been to a number of museum exhibits where they had supposedly accurate life size mannequins of Neanderthals From that day forth that visual evidence had me speculating that their was some of their DNA present in a vast number of us today and its not so subtle either.

Just tell me you have not seen all of these people, http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&sugexp=ldymls&xhr=t&q=neanderthal&cp=3&wrapid=tljp129548238423306&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=DH43TZ_ALcy08QOp_-i_DA&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=2&sqi=2&ved=0CDcQsAQwAQ&biw=1259&bih=645 , in public at one time or another as well!

I know I went to school or have worked with a few of them and I know I dated the one gal, or at least her sister, as well.

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#18
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Re: Zombie Elephants and Other Science

01/19/2011 8:59 PM

No matter how bad you feel about yourself there is always someone on that site that makes you feel so much better!

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#19

Re: Zombie Elephants and Other Science

01/20/2011 9:36 PM

I don't personally like to see animals in zoos, I have seen unhappy animals in zoos. But most people don't feel that way, some are enthusiastic about caring for animals in captivity and really make an effort to make it a pleasant and healthy environment for the animal. So I find it hard to muster convincing crittercisms about cloning a wooly mammoth.

Cloning a neanderthal is problematic for all the reasons that Roger pointed out. Essentially human or equivalent, the person would be deprived of a normal life and would certainly be subject to constant testing, exploitation for research without the right to refuse, and other treatments which violate the concept of human rights.

The strongest argument against cloning, afaik, is that clones live short lives and succomb to disease and misery before dying. That argument would apply to any animal or human clone.

The zombie clone idea is also not so appealing. If they succeed in resurrecting prehistoric creatures, they will also want to clone famous celebrities from the grave. Then the preachers will get in on it, and join forces with the cloners to stage the Resurrection and make a clone of every corpse buried on consecrated soil, etc. etc. We could be living in zombieland before you know it....

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#22

Re: Zombie Elephants and Other Science

03/03/2011 7:07 PM

I see no moral implications to cloning extinct animals. Mammoths? Why not. Dodo's... go for it.

As for Neanderthals... if you take any photo of what a Neanderthal is supposed to look like, give them clean straight teeth, comb or cut their hair, wipe the grime off, and throw a polo shirt on... you will have someone who looks very similar to many people I've seen around the world. Some populations, even more so.

It's my opinion that they could incorporate them selves into life with not too many obstacles, if they grow up here. Regarding all the scientific intrusions into their life... well, as far as I know, we handled the first test tube baby growing up pretty well. I'm sure she spent alot of time be questioned and studied, then went through a period of celebrity, but in the end she is now living her life happily in relative obscurity. As far as I know. I think that part would be handled properly and with sensitivity, for the first Neanderthal cloned.

But the bigger problem is if they were to become a population (given that they were fertile). Since we see racial discrimination now and forever, between human beings... what kind of social anguish would a whole different species go through with speciel (sp?) discrimination. Quality of life, socially, for their entire population would suck... for many many generations.

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