Speaking of Precision Blog

Speaking of Precision

Speaking of Precision is a knowledge preservation and thought leadership blog covering the precision machining industry, its materials and services. With over 36 years of hands on experience in steelmaking, manufacturing, quality, and management, Miles Free (Milo) Director of Industry Research and Technology at PMPA helps answer "How?" "With what?" and occasionally "Really?"

Previous in Blog: How Does Your State Rank for Manufacturing?   Next in Blog: Gloves and Grinders – UNSAFE OSHA
Close
Close
Close
7 comments
Rate Comments: Nested

Carbon Steel Without Manganese?

Posted August 05, 2014 11:00 AM by Milo
Pathfinder Tags: manganese manufacturing roll steel

Manganese ties up Sulfur before it can chemically combine with Iron to form Iron Pyrite. Iron Pyrite occurs at grain boundaries and leads to hot shortness (brittle behavior) at rolling temperatures.

More than fools gold, Iron Pyrite can prevent steel from being hot worked by inducing "hot shortness."

We saw that several people found our blog with the search term "Carbon Steel Without Manganese."

So we'll take this opportunity to answer that.

We have already written about 5 Facts about Manganese in Steel which explains the contributions of Manganese to a steel's properties.

But lets answer the question - is there a Carbon Steel without Manganese?

The answer to that is No.

Here is the primary reason why. Iron Pyrite.

There are always small amounts of sulfur in steel, and Sulfur combines with the iron in the steel to form Iron Pyrite. Iron Pyrite is also known as iron sulfide, though a more descriptive name might be Iron persulfide.

Regardless, this material is formed as sulfur in the melt reacts with iron , and this material segregates at grain boundaries., causing intergranular brittleness. This causes it to break, rather than behave in a ductile fashion and reduce under the pressure of the rolls.

By adding Manganese to the melt, Manganese preferentially ties up the available sulfur, forming manganese sulfides. this prevents the formation of iron pyrites in the grain boundaries, preserving the ductility of the steel at rolling temperatures.

That is why every steel that we have encountered contains enough Manganese to react with the sulfur in the melt.

Steel without Manganese? Nope, I've never encountered it. And that is a good thing!

Photo credit


Editor's Note: CR4 would like to thank Milo for sharing this blog entry, which you can finish reading here.

Register to Reply

Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.
Guru
Hobbies - DIY Welding - Don't Know What Made The Old Title Attractive... Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member United States - US - Statue of Liberty - 60 Year Member

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Yellowstone Valley, in Big Sky Country
Posts: 7425
Good Answers: 295
#1

Re: Carbon Steel Without Manganese?

08/05/2014 12:21 PM

We saw that several people found our blog with the search term "Carbon Steel Without Manganese."

According to Wiki, steelmaking consumes 85%-90% of the global Mn demand. Is there a current or foreseen shortage of Mn that might be driving this interest in Carbon Steel Without Manganese?

__________________
Semper Ubi Sub Ubi
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: "Dancing over the abyss."
Posts: 4884
Good Answers: 243
#2
In reply to #1

Re: Carbon Steel Without Manganese?

08/05/2014 12:45 PM

I thought that the search originated in India where someone trying to break into the steel business just paid the ir ferromanganese bill and wanted to know if there was a different recipe they could use to avoid paying for the Manganese.

But 80% of the manganese in the market comes from south Africa. Us sources of manganese are largely from Gabon, but ferromanganese from South Africa as the major supplier. also found in Ukraine (HMMM???) China, Australia and Brazil. so to your point it could have been a response to geopolitical forces.

Thanks for challenging the assumptions!

Milo

__________________
People say between two opposed opinions the truth lies in the middle. Not at all! Between them lies the problem, what is unseeable,eternally active life, contemplated in repose. Goethe
Register to Reply
Guru
New Zealand - Member - Kiwi Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 8777
Good Answers: 376
#3
In reply to #2

Re: Carbon Steel Without Manganese?

08/05/2014 5:58 PM

I thought that the search originated in India where someone trying to break into the steel business just paid the ir ferromanganese bill and wanted to know if there was a different recipe they could use to avoid paying for the Manganese.

If that were the case we would have seen the question asked on CR4.

;)

__________________
jack of all trades
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: "Dancing over the abyss."
Posts: 4884
Good Answers: 243
#4
In reply to #3

Re: Carbon Steel Without Manganese?

08/05/2014 6:02 PM
__________________
People say between two opposed opinions the truth lies in the middle. Not at all! Between them lies the problem, what is unseeable,eternally active life, contemplated in repose. Goethe
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 176
Good Answers: 4
#5
In reply to #3

Re: Carbon Steel Without Manganese?

08/06/2014 11:08 AM

HA!

Register to Reply
Participant

Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 1
#6

Re: Carbon Steel Without Manganese?

08/08/2014 7:20 AM

How about stainless steel and various other types of steel? Do even they have to have maganese?

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: "Dancing over the abyss."
Posts: 4884
Good Answers: 243
#7
In reply to #6

Re: Carbon Steel Without Manganese?

08/08/2014 10:59 AM

great question Typically Manganese content in stainless steels is over 1% by weight. 20Mo-4 stainless, 410,431,440C, and 17-4ph are 1%; 303, 304, 316 2%;18Cr-2Ni-12Mn runs 11-14%.

I have seen some solenoid grades (Carpenter 430F solenoid quality) at 0.80% Manganese.

Manganese is needed to tie up the sulfur as we discussed; it also contributes to carbon equivalent for hardenability and by combining with sulfur assists in chip breaking during machining.

Milo

__________________
People say between two opposed opinions the truth lies in the middle. Not at all! Between them lies the problem, what is unseeable,eternally active life, contemplated in repose. Goethe
Register to Reply
Register to Reply 7 comments
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

Doorman (1); GameJudge (1); jack of all trades (1); Milo (3); Seena (1)

Previous in Blog: How Does Your State Rank for Manufacturing?   Next in Blog: Gloves and Grinders – UNSAFE OSHA

Advertisement