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36 comments

U.S. EPA Moves to Phase-out Familiar HFC'S

Posted August 20, 2014 8:00 AM by larhere

The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency has now formally proposed to limit certain potent greenhouse gases from use in air conditioners, refrigerators, aerosols and foams in favor of safer, more climate-friendly alternatives. The movement from high to low GWP refrigerants we outlined in a recent post (Refrigerants Update: Clarity or Confusion?) took a giant step forward with the new proposal which introduces limits on refrigerants and blends containing R-134a, 143a, 125, HCFCs and others. Among the proposed changes:

  • Bans the use of R-134a in motor vehicle air-conditioning systems starting with model year 2021. R-134a had been listed as approved on the SNAP list of acceptable alternatives. The recent approval of HFO-1234yf for mvac use provided a more environmentally acceptable alternative.
  • For new, stand-alone retail food refrigeration and new vending machines, as of January 1, 2016 the use of HFC-134a and certain other HFC refrigerant blends is banned.
  • HFC blends R-507A and R-404A banned for new and retrofit retail food refrigeration (including stand-alone equipment, condensing units, direct supermarket systems, and indirect supermarket systems) and for new and retrofit vending machines, as of January 1, 2016.

This proposed rule is part of the Significant New Alternatives Policy (SNAP) program, under which the EPA continuously reviews alternatives to ODS to find substitutes that pose less overall risk to human health and the environment. As safer alternatives become available for particular applications, the list of acceptable substitutes is evaluated and revised.

The question being asked now is just how low a GWP does a refrigerant need to be?

Download this fact sheet for specific refrigerants, applications and dates.

Editor's Note: CR4 would like to thank Larry Butz, GEA Consulting President, for contributing this blog entry.

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#1

Re: U.S. EPA Moves to Phase-out Familiar HFC'S

08/20/2014 6:51 PM
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#2

Re: U.S. EPA Moves to Phase-out Familiar HFC'S

08/20/2014 10:49 PM

I take it their head doesn't know what their ass is talking about and vice versa being canned air is R 134a refrigerant and how much of that gets vented into the atmosphere every day compared to refrigeration system leaks?

For example where I work a pair of 30 pound tanks of R 134a will last our mechanics all summer despite our company having a hundred plus pieces of equipment and vehicles that use it.

Now the office and us techs on the other hand burn through a case of canned air in a month the last time I looked it was 12 cans to case and 24 ounces to a can or roughly 18 pounds of R 134a being vented every month.

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#21
In reply to #2

Re: U.S. EPA Moves to Phase-out Familiar HFC'S

08/22/2014 2:00 AM

Well, it isn't really "canned air" is it?

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#22
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Re: U.S. EPA Moves to Phase-out Familiar HFC'S

08/22/2014 7:37 AM

Anything non-flammable, is "air".

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#24
In reply to #22

Re: U.S. EPA Moves to Phase-out Familiar HFC'S

08/22/2014 11:27 AM

Really. Try breathing water.

And, just because people choose to call it canned "air" certainly doesn't mean it is the correct term

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#26
In reply to #24

Re: U.S. EPA Moves to Phase-out Familiar HFC'S

08/22/2014 5:35 PM

I was semi drunk and being a smartass.

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#3

Re: U.S. EPA Moves to Phase-out Familiar HFC'S

08/20/2014 11:02 PM

Do you suppose that the HFCS makers are in favor of the changes? Do you think that the new will cost more than the old? Quien Sabe amigos

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#4

Re: U.S. EPA Moves to Phase-out Familiar HFC'S

08/20/2014 11:22 PM

They can't help themselves but screw with the economy every chance they get.

In spite of their best efforts, we somehow manage.

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#5

Re: U.S. EPA Moves to Phase-out Familiar HFC'S

08/20/2014 11:38 PM

I'm very much in favor of government regulation of yahoos that hang out on a scientific forum, but think global warming is just a hoax. It gives me lots of examples to use in class about the human inability to face reality, and still function as techies. Religious fundies aren't the only ones who compartmentalize.

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#11
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Re: U.S. EPA Moves to Phase-out Familiar HFC'S

08/21/2014 6:12 PM

The point is not whether man-made global warming is true or not, it is the assumption that eliminating (fill in the blank here - 134a, etc) will make a gnat's derierre of difference either way. We already recycle 134a. At the price of that stuff, I certainly just don't blow it out of a system into the air.

The problem is that the government does not always act in rational ways. When it isn't THEIR money, all solutions suddenly look good.

Your presumption (in jest I hope) of government regulation of our (yahoos) speech would be REALLY scary.

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#12
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Re: U.S. EPA Moves to Phase-out Familiar HFC'S

08/21/2014 7:22 PM

It will make a difference to Dupont.

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Re: U.S. EPA Moves to Phase-out Familiar HFC'S

08/21/2014 8:17 PM

I ignored the yahoo thing, but I honestly believe we could run a smarter, more efficient government from right here on CR4.

I'll take a government filled with doctors, scientists and engineers, over a bunch of lawyers and community organizers any day! These idiots are killing us.

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#14
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Re: U.S. EPA Moves to Phase-out Familiar HFC'S

08/21/2014 9:56 PM

Speaking of reality......

Canned air gas duster ingredients.

Vs

R-134a refrigerant

Awwwww CR4P... Ain't that a SOB.

Just don't do an in depth search for how much canned air gas duster is sold and used every year for a class study or you just might start getting kids thinking that the AGW thing really might just be a scam after all.

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#15
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Re: U.S. EPA Moves to Phase-out Familiar HFC'S

08/21/2014 10:25 PM

Now wait just a damned minute!

Are you saying that they've lied to us?
I voted, and that's just not possible.

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#16
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Re: U.S. EPA Moves to Phase-out Familiar HFC'S

08/21/2014 10:40 PM

All I can say is that there was a time in my life when I believed it was true and did my best to dig up as much convincing proof as I could to prove and defend my beliefs.

Unfortunately my dang rational mind and scientific logic mentality just couldn't swallow it and I had to change sides and accept it is a scam. A very large and very obvious scam hiding in plain site.

Sure we humans do some things that are not environmentally friendly but when weighed against the numbers and actions of nature we just can't swing it and far too often don't even make it out of the numerical aggregate of the equations that quantify what nature does and will do with or without us.

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#17
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Re: U.S. EPA Moves to Phase-out Familiar HFC'S

08/21/2014 10:49 PM

Taking a crap isn't environmentally friendly. On the one hand, it can poison somebody else's water; on the other hand, you're a dung beatle and you just won the f^^king lottery.

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#18
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Re: U.S. EPA Moves to Phase-out Familiar HFC'S

08/21/2014 11:05 PM

Damn. I just engaged in another beer and imagined dung beatle house hunting.

Husband: This is perfect! Lets have sex!

Wife: I don't know honey, it's a little small and the walls are already beginning to crust up. We have to think about starting a family. Please stop thinking about sex all the time.

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#30
In reply to #17

Re: U.S. EPA Moves to Phase-out Familiar HFC'S

08/24/2014 8:45 PM

"Taking a crap isn't environmentally friendly."

Really? I am pretty sure that the vast majority of living creatures great and small since the beginning of time have pooped making it a rather common and necessary part of the environment.

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Re: U.S. EPA Moves to Phase-out Familiar HFC'S

08/24/2014 8:51 PM

I'm happy to argue with you TCM, but you have to promise to read my post first....slowly.

Can we assume sarcasm?

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#20
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Re: U.S. EPA Moves to Phase-out Familiar HFC'S

08/22/2014 12:01 AM

I don't know if you remember this idiot,

His wife is just as stupid, and they see humans as cancer. Why don't they start eradicating the problem now?

Oops. They're scared of guns. Morons.

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#23
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Re: U.S. EPA Moves to Phase-out Familiar HFC'S

08/22/2014 11:04 AM

You mean to say that there now is indisputable evidence that global warming is specifically the result of HFC compunds being released by humans into the atmosphere?

Where would I be able to find the document(s) and DATA?

Given: Volcanic activity is the earth's natural way of controlling it's temperature cycles.

Given: Volcanic activity has more than tripled in the last fifteen years and therefore uncontrolled copius amounts of CO2 along with many other hazardous gases along with an extraordinary quantity of ash are being pumped into our atmosphere at an unprecedented rate.

Given: Just one of the many large volcanoes contribute more to global warming in one day than all of the HFC generators in the world combined.

Wouldn't it be prudent to assume that the global warming problem is not attributable solely to human generated HFC compounds which are minute in quantity when compared to those being generated by volcanic activity?

Also:

The newly approved cooling system compounds (freon?) are extremely inefficient and extremely hazzardous to humans andexplosive in nature.

Toyota, Nissan, and other international automotive manufactureres have already stated they will not use the new refrigerant in their automobiles due to the high risk of explosions and/or fires to vehicle occupants.

Lower HFC cooling & heating efficiency equals higher energy consumption which in turn generates more pollution.

Talk about human inability to face reality.

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#25
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Re: U.S. EPA Moves to Phase-out Familiar HFC'S

08/22/2014 5:33 PM

These people want government to regulate every aspect of their lives, apparently including internet opinions...and they vote.

Frustrating isn't it?

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#32
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Re: U.S. EPA Moves to Phase-out Familiar HFC'S

08/24/2014 8:52 PM

"Wouldn't it be prudent to assume that the global warming problem is not attributable solely to human generated HFC compounds which are minute in quantity when compared to those being generated by volcanic activity?"

Well they do label them as having a 'global warming potential' meaning that it has not actually been proven to warm things up but they have the potential to do something. In a way that's sort of like I have the 'potential' to do a lot of things at work but we all know it's highly unlikely that it will ever happen to any measurable extent.

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#33
In reply to #32

Re: U.S. EPA Moves to Phase-out Familiar HFC'S

08/24/2014 8:58 PM

It's embarrassing to even be talking about this.

Global Warming has been exposed as a fraud religion. Can we stop now?

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#34
In reply to #33

Re: U.S. EPA Moves to Phase-out Familiar HFC'S

08/24/2014 9:27 PM

Sorry. I am training to take over my bosses job while he goes on vacation.

How am I doing?

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#35
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Re: U.S. EPA Moves to Phase-out Familiar HFC'S

08/24/2014 9:38 PM

So far, so good.

It's also important to be able to make porn go away quickly...I mean real fast. I'm sure you're smart enough to know how to minimize your screen and make it look like you care.

To be safe, I keep entire porn movies in my "Save the Planet" folder. Nobody will ever open it.

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Re: U.S. EPA Moves to Phase-out Familiar HFC'S

08/25/2014 7:03 PM

Has been noted.

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Re: U.S. EPA Moves to Phase-out Familiar HFC'S

08/21/2014 7:29 AM

This is how our politicians become rich.

http://www.cnet.com/news/epa-approves-new-air-conditioning-refrigerant/#!

https://www.google.com/search?q=honeywell+stock+price&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=sb

https://www.google.com/search?q=dupont+stock+price&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=sb

Click on the 5 year charts for those stocks, and it's been a steady increase.

In the meantime the ozone hole is shrinking.

http://www.livescience.com/27049-ozone-hole-shrinks-record-low.html

Yep. I'd say that anybody that had knowledge of these changes before the general public, stands to make a tidy profit.

How is it that the rich keep getting richer?

Not only that, but somebody's gonna have to rewrite thousands of pages of regulatory CR4p.

http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/609/technicians/retrguid.html

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#7

Re: U.S. EPA Moves to Phase-out Familiar HFC'S

08/21/2014 9:52 AM

I believe that the government mandates trade one problem for another. The medicine is worse than the disease. The sun has much more to do with our climate than we can ever cause, or correct. Here's just one example of a new problem introduced by the cure.

http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2012/10/12/environmentally-friendly-refrigerant-may-pose-fire-hazard-in-cars/

Then, consider economic impacts.

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#8

Re: U.S. EPA Moves to Phase-out Familiar HFC'S

08/21/2014 10:51 AM

Once again policy is based upon erroneous supposition. That is always a bad combination.

We do impact our close by environments through pollution, groundwater contamination, etc. but there has never been definitive proof that we impact the Universe. The only ones that come to those conclusions are those who have something to prove, an axe to grind or financial gain to make, i.e. Carbon Credits/Al Gore and his ilk.

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#9

Re: U.S. EPA Moves to Phase-out Familiar HFC'S

08/21/2014 12:07 PM

When I read the title, I missed the apostrophe, and thought the EPA was trying to phase out High Fructose Corn Syrup.

Not that we couldn't do with less HFCS in our diet (it's snuck into everything these days).

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#10

Re: U.S. EPA Moves to Phase-out Familiar HFC'S

08/21/2014 3:57 PM

I remember switching my vehicles to 134A when they got low on R12.

I went to Walmart, paid the $10 for the "conversion kit", vented the R12 to the atmosphere, and refilled with 134A.

I've GOT to find a way to get in on the ground floor of these brilliant ideas. I want to be making the conversion equipment before anyone else even knows that changes are coming.

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#19

Re: U.S. EPA Moves to Phase-out Familiar HFC'S

08/21/2014 11:18 PM

I went OT. Sorry.

It's time to phase out the EPA.

Nixon was an insecure man that wanted to be loved. They spit in his face.

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Re: U.S. EPA Moves to Phase-out Familiar HFC'S

08/22/2014 5:52 PM

From the fact sheet:

This proposal responds to the President's Climate Action Plan by prohibiting certain uses of high global warming potential (high-GWP) HFCs where alternatives are available that are safer for human health and the environment.

Safer for human health?

Mr President, Read your freakin' SNAP sheet. The same stuff you're phasing out for AC systems, will continue to be acceptable for use in metered dose inhalers...You Dolt! That means breathed directly into the lungs.

Somebody needs to just tell this guy, NO!

How can one person have the power to completely destroy peoples lives and businesses on a whim?

Why are we allowing an unelected body of bureaucrats at the EPA to write laws that we have to follow? They don't have that authority and they need to be put in their places!

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Re: U.S. EPA Moves to Phase-out Familiar HFC'S

08/23/2014 2:45 AM

Nevermind. Just kidding guys. Sounds like a good plan!

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Re: U.S. EPA Moves to Phase-out Familiar HFC'S

08/23/2014 9:21 AM

This just a little taste. I would imagine that even the janitors and secretaries within these agencies, if they're paying attention, would be able to set up some pretty impressive investment returns.

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2013/06/10/terrific-government-officials-engage-in-insider-trading-with-medicare-n1616817

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