Derivations Blog

Derivations

A place for deriving stuff. We take requests.

Previous in Blog: Ultrathin Lens Has No Chromatic Aberrations   Next in Blog: Fast Radio Burst Galaxy Identified - Missing Matter Found
Close
Close
Close
6 comments
Rate Comments: Nested

Lasers for Relativistic Propulsion (Eventually)

Posted February 24, 2016 7:08 AM by Bayes

There is a group at UCSB that are working on developing interstellar flight. I found their website interesting...

http://www.deepspace.ucsb.edu/projects/

Here's a quick video they've put together (not many details, but cool)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCDuAiA6kX0

Here is a paper they recently submitted to SPIE Optics and Photonics (August 2015)

http://www.deepspace.ucsb.edu/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/zhang_spie2015_SAIL-r815a.pdf

And here is a "Roadmap to Interstellar Flight" they've put together

http://www.deepspace.ucsb.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/A-Roadmap-to-Interstellar-Flight-15-o.pdf

Reply

Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: About 4000 miles from the center of the earth (+/-100 mi)
Posts: 9911
Good Answers: 1141
#1

Re: Lasers for Relativistic Propulsion (Eventually)

02/24/2016 11:06 AM

It takes a whole lot of power to get any force from a beam of light. The momentum of a light beam p=E/c, where E is the light energy, p is momentum, and c is the speed of light (3x10^8 m/s).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_pressure
You can divide by time to equate power versus force. And there is a factor of 2 (if that helps) because the light changes direction when it hits the sail and bounces off.So, 150 MW will generate 1 newton of force (about .225 lb for us Yanks). That comes out to about 666 MW per pound of force. (This is laser output power, laser input power would likely be considerably higher.)
A 1 kg mass could be sent to Neptune in 5 days with a 70 GW laser.http://www.deepspace.ucsb.edu/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/zhang_spie2015_SAIL-r815a.pdf
To put the power required into perspective, the electric energy generated in the US in 2012 was 4048 TWh or an average power of 462 GW, so the laser output would be about 15% of the average total US power production.
https://www.eia.gov/cfapps/ipdbproject/IEDIndex3.cfm?tid=2&pid=2&aid=12

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: About 4000 miles from the center of the earth (+/-100 mi)
Posts: 9911
Good Answers: 1141
#2
In reply to #1

Re: Lasers for Relativistic Propulsion (Eventually)

02/24/2016 2:36 PM

And another thing, the sail had better be very, very reflective or that 70 GW is going to do some damage!

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: South of Minot North Dakota
Posts: 8376
Good Answers: 775
#3

Re: Lasers for Relativistic Propulsion (Eventually)

02/24/2016 8:53 PM

Wouldn't that laser energy be better off used to vaporize and superheat solids into a super heated plasmas that can be ejected out the back to provide thrust?

As far as I know even a few KW's of laser energy being used to plasmadize most any solid that can be found anywhere would be able to provide a far greater energy to thrust ratio than simply pointing a laser at a sail or out the back.

Basically put a space rock on the back and blast the rear facing surface off of it with a laser creating a cloud of superheated plasma debris and you should get thrust in return.

Or is my understanding of basic plasmas and blowing them out the back of something to make thrust incorrect?

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: About 4000 miles from the center of the earth (+/-100 mi)
Posts: 9911
Good Answers: 1141
#4
In reply to #3

Re: Lasers for Relativistic Propulsion (Eventually)

02/25/2016 7:34 AM

The power to thrust ratio is much better if you use the energy to eject mass at high velocity. But the problem is carrying that extra mass. For example, the saturn v weighs about 23 times the weight of the payload.

The mass ratio for accelerating a rocket by a given amount (Δv) is a function of the propellant exhaust velocity:

So accelerating a rocket to relativistic velocities with achievable exhaust velocities would require an enormous mass ratio. Laser propulsion, however inefficient, is a way around this.

Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: The 'Space Coast', USA
Posts: 11119
Good Answers: 918
#6
In reply to #3

Re: Lasers for Relativistic Propulsion (Eventually)

02/25/2016 8:14 AM

No.

The advantage of the laser is that it is not bound by propellant speed, which would be much lower with a solid fuel.

The space craft's maximum velocity is limited by the exhaust velocity of the propellant.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: About 4000 miles from the center of the earth (+/-100 mi)
Posts: 9911
Good Answers: 1141
#5

Re: Lasers for Relativistic Propulsion (Eventually)

02/25/2016 7:55 AM

Even with laser propulsion, a large reflector is required which will have some weight. A way around this is to use the sun's energy. One technique which has been proposed is to create a weightless magnetic sail and trap ions from the solar wind (M2P2).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_sail

Reply
Reply to Blog Entry 6 comments
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

Anonymous Hero (1); Rixter (4); tcmtech (1)

Previous in Blog: Ultrathin Lens Has No Chromatic Aberrations   Next in Blog: Fast Radio Burst Galaxy Identified - Missing Matter Found

Advertisement