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Cosmic Clocks

Posted December 03, 2007 4:18 AM by Jorrie

The reason for the relatively long break in postings on this Blog is that I have been studying some new developments in cosmology. Here is the preliminary 'result' of this study, with updates to come...

The standard cosmological model assumes large-scale homogeneity and then uses a simplified solution to Einstein's field equations to find the equations of motion. This lead to the so-called Friedmann-Lemaître-Robertson-Walker (FLRW) metric and the present 'best-buy' Lambda-Cold-Dark-Matter (LCDM) cosmic model.

The 'Lambda' indicates the cosmological constant or more generally, 'dark energy', a mysterious concept that contributes to the gravity that constrains the expansion of the universe, but has negative pressure that causes the apparent expansion rate to increase. I say 'apparent', because the increase is not directly measured, but inferred from the distance/luminosity ratio of supernovae type SN1a.

Fig. 1:[1]

From this SN1a data, an expansion curve like the solid line shown if Fig. 1 results. Without dark energy, an expansion curve like the dotted line was expected (that was before 1998).

Nowadays there are more than one rival models trying to get rid of the dark energy. One 'promising' view is that of David Wiltshire of New Zealand[2]. He is one of a few that have tackled the issue that the Universe is not homogeneous, head-on. Wiltshire's approach is deceptively simple: since we are sitting inside a gravitationally bound structure with a definite deviation from the general large-scale homogeneity, we observe the distant universe with a 'bias'.

The bias has to do with the relativistic fact that clocks inside our Galaxy must run slower than hypothetical clocks inside the large voids (empty regions) of the universe. Wiltshire proposes a way to average these clock rates (actually he does a bit more averaging than just clock rates) and showed that this enables a quite different model to fit all the observational data – and it does so without dark energy! To make things even more interesting, he claims to have solved some of the 'paradoxes' that plaque the standard model, e.g., the so-called "Sandage–de Vaucouleurs paradox"[3].

The relevant papers are new, arXiv dated 1 Nov 2007, so the jury is still out on them. If proven even close to valid, this may revolutionize cosmology for decades to come.

Jorrie

[1] Figure from Relativity 4 Engineers, chapter 16, where more details on the curve is located. (Free chapter download available)

[2] http://arxiv.org/abs/0709.0732: "Exact solution to the averaging problem in cosmology" is a preprint of a short Physics Review type letter, which summarizes and references the more complete papers.

[3] Quote from Wiltshire's full paper: "This puzzle, the Sandage-de Vaucouleurs paradox, arises since we expect that the statistical scatter in peculiar velocities of galaxies as a fraction of their recession velocity should be large until the scale of homogeneity is approached. In fact, on the scale of 20 Mpc, of order 10% of the scale of homogeneity, the scatter ought to be so large that no linear Hubble flow should be derivable, statistically speaking. Yet, 20 Mpc is the local scale over which Hubble originally obtained his famous linear law. By conventional understanding this does not make sense."

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#1

Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/03/2007 8:30 AM

This is the stuff I love when current theories get turned on their ears.

Many people ask why I like that, stating that they much prefer order in their lives. However, I find it much more fascinating when a discovery blows a hole in the current thinking because it spawns a waterfall of new and exciting ideas. People get off their butts and get busy trying to explain the new finding, which leads to yet more discovery.

Exciting times. Thanks for the look into these new lines of thinking.

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#2

Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/03/2007 5:10 PM

Hi Jorrie,

I'm in agreement with Anon that it is good stuff. Not sure about the chaos as my world still seems very orderly from where I am sitting.

More seriously though, most is beyond me but it fascinates me endlessly.

Does "since we are sitting inside a gravitationally bound structure with a definite deviation from the general large-scale homogeneity, we observe the distant universe with a 'bias'." mean that it is possible that parts of our universe may be busy contracting while other parts are expanding?

That would give you a biased view when you look to the "other" side, would it not?

Like I said my interest is just that, rocketscience is for starship pilots

Only kidding.

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#3
In reply to #2

Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/03/2007 9:09 PM

Hi C491, you asked: "Does "since we are sitting inside a gravitationally bound structure with a definite deviation from the general large-scale homogeneity, we observe the distant universe with a 'bias'." mean that it is possible that parts of our universe may be busy contracting while other parts are expanding?"

Yep, that's possible. Gravitationally bound structures that have reached stability (like the main part of our Galaxy) does not contract in the usual sense of the word. However, if we consider our local group (Andromeda, the clouds of Magellan and some dwarf galaxies, this system is contracting, or better stated, it's still busy with gravitational collapse. The same may be true for the whole Virgo Cluster that we belong to.

Jorrie

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#5
In reply to #3

Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/03/2007 11:43 PM

"...contracting while other parts are expanding..."

Would that mean, that should you travel from point A to point B through space, your clock may speed up or slow down with your varying velocity, as these gravitational fields you cross influence you surrounding dimensions.

I hope I phrased my question sensibly.

In other words, is it possible then that if gravity contracts and expands space, it may influence your clock as you travel through?

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#7
In reply to #5

Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/04/2007 12:30 AM

Hi Guest, you asked about clock speeds as "you travel from point A to point B through space".

Your speed may be the biggest factor influencing you clock rate relative to Earth clocks, but the more mass-energy density there is in your vicinity, the slower your clock will tick when compared to Earth clocks and visa-versa.

If you go away from Earth (and especially from the Sun) into interstellar space and 'park' there, your clock will gain time on Earth's clocks. If you go out of the Galaxy, all the way to a one of the big voids and park there, your clock will gain even more time on Earth clocks. This is standard Einsteinian relativity, on which Wiltshire's new cosmology theory hinges.

Jorrie

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#9
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Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/04/2007 2:40 PM

Hi Jorrie,

Welcome back. Missed your commetaries.

You said "Your speed may be the biggest factor influencing you clock rate relative to Earth clocks..."

Not to put words into Guest's mouth (#5), but if I understand his/her question, isn't it that if I am, say, traveling outward through the collapsing Virgo cluster (still within it though), does the gravitational collapse itself affect my clock other than just my relativistic speed? (assuming everything is collapsing)

-John

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#11
In reply to #9

Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/04/2007 11:04 PM

Hi John, you asked: "... isn't it that if I am, say, traveling outward through the collapsing Virgo cluster (still within it though), does the gravitational collapse itself affect my clock other than just my relativistic speed? (assuming everything is collapsing)"

Yea and nah! The collapse per se has no direct effect, I think, but the fact that it causes greater local density has an effect on your clock. Clocks run slower in the more dense areas than in the lesser dense areas (straight gravitational time dilation.)

Jorrie

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#8
In reply to #3

Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/04/2007 1:44 PM

Hi Jorrie,

Thanks for your reply. While reading your reply, it suddenly dawned on me that I should have realised al the time that it is possible, there are still hot-spots everywhere making new stars out of surrounding matter.

So , if I am right in assuming, this concept describes micro localities rather than explain the dynamics of the universe as a whole. If our local system Andromeda is "still contracting" it merely means we are still producing new stars and contain a high number of young blue stars, like Virgo.

I never connected this to the expansion of the whole of our universe, just as a local event. Does this new thinking by Wiltshire change the way they see the progression of our universe as a whole or is that too far to grasp for this moment?

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#10
In reply to #8

Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/04/2007 10:52 PM

H C491.

What you wrote is conceptually correct. Just do not read too much into the 'very local' effects as an influence on the whole. The single black hole makes a very, very small contribution to the energy density of the whole, but it all adds up to a global system.

"Does this new thinking by Wiltshire change the way they see the progression of our universe as a whole or is that too far to grasp for this moment?"

Yep, if it holds up under intense scrutiny, it will change the way we look at the universe at large.

Jorrie

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#4

Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/03/2007 11:28 PM

Hey Jorrie, good stuff!

To quote a certain disreputable cosmologist, Wiltshire is saying that when we observe a galaxy on the far side of a void, we are "viewing the past through a future lens."

Wiltshire's theory is the most logical approach I've heard lately. On the surface, it's hard to see why there isn't a lot of truth in the differential time and expansion rate effect he describes. Of course, I can't vouch for his math!!!

Jon

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#6
In reply to #4

Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/04/2007 12:14 AM

Hi Jon. Mush easier to discuss things here than on that 'other Forum'!

Your "viewing the past through a future lens" is a gem, but I'm not too sure what to make of it... Haven't tried to decipher all of Wiltshire's math either - I'm lazy and waiting for the physics community to do so first. It has passed peer review, so any errors cannot be too gross, I guess.

BTW, your postulate that there may be some spatial contraction near very dense bodies, like black holes, is true in a sense. It conforms exactly to the Schwarzschild or Kerr metrics, depending on the black hole type, with no 'additional contraction'. Black holes are formed by collapse and as long as there are things to gobble, they keep on collapsing things into a singularity. Stable orbits around BHs are however possible to quite close - for a Schwarzschild hole, this requires r ≥ 6GM/c2. Closer than that, things tend to spiral in.

It is just very difficult to compare the large scale spatial geometry to the local geometry, a journey that Wiltshire and others have taken some tentative steps on.

Jorrie

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#12
In reply to #6

Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/05/2007 3:58 PM

Hi Jorrie,

It seems to me that Wiltshire's idea can be rather easily tested by analyzing average redshift variances between, on the one hand, objects which we view on the far side of large voids, and on the other hand, objects (which are believed to be equally distant due to luminosity, etc.) which we view without looking through any sizeable void.

Wiltshire seems to be saying that essentially all of the expansion of space occurs in voids (i.e., no expansion within bound clusters), and voids constitute 60-75% of the total volume in the present universe. With no expansion within clusters, a photon which traverses only clusters (not voids) will experience no Hubble redshift. (It will experience whatever redshift is attributable to the photon source's peculiar motion and gravitational dilation). So redshift variances ought to be quite noticeable depending on the photon's travel path.

I referred to looking through a void as a "future lens" because Wiltshire says that according to the void's internal clock, the void can be up to 21Gy old, as compared to the 14.6Gy he gives for time measured by "wall observers" like us. So, looking through a void we see photons that are affected by a void structure that has 5-6Gy more expansion under its belt than we do. It's sort of like the Twins Paradox: Wall observers are the travelling twin, and void observers are the twin who stayed home.

I can't help wondering whether Wiltshire's idea creates a new time paradox or at least uncertainty. Specifically, when we observe a wall structure on the far side of a void, do we see it as it existed in the "past" as measured by our "wall clock", or as it existed in the "past" as measured by the "void clock"? If it is the latter (which seems kind of reasonable since the photons must traverse the void), then depending on distance, we may be seeing the wall structure at a time when it is still in our "future" as measured by the wall clock. And it's own future. That just doesn't seem right!

The other odd thing is that we define voids essentially by their bubble walls -- there isn't much to see inside the void itself. So how can a void expand faster than the Hubble flow of the wall structures which contain it? I'm probably just confusing myself at this point!

Jon

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#13
In reply to #12

Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/06/2007 3:54 AM

Hi Jon.

Your: "... when we observe a wall structure on the far side of a void, do we see it as it existed in the "past" as measured by our "wall clock", or as it existed in the "past" as measured by the "void clock"?"

Isn't this similar to you and me both identically parked outside our own private, isolated, but identical black holes, with empty space ('asymptotically flat', by GR definitions) between us. Our clocks would run more or less synchronously. All that the empty space would do is make the light reach us a little earlier than what Newton would have predicted (inverse Shapiro delay, where the light travels a bit faster on average than what we measure at our locations).

How to translate that to cosmic scales, I simply do not know...

Jorrie

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#16
In reply to #13

Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/07/2007 8:42 PM

Hi Jorrie,

I agree with your description in general. I guess it's the boundaries between voids and "wall clusters" that seem troublesome.

Imagine we reside in a galaxy which comprises an immediate part of the wall of a void. When we look towards the void, the void is the closest thing we see. When we look away from the void, we see the rest of our cluster which (hypothetically) stretches away from the void.

Do we observe that the accelerated expansion of the void (due to its internal curvature) is "pushing" our galaxy outwards, towards the center of our own cluster? Is this Hubble flow, or is it peculiar motion? How can the empty space of the void "push" on the matter of our galaxy? I suppose it's not "pushing", rather we are going "along for the ride" on the void's accelerated Hubble flow.

Presumably the accelerated Hubble flow does not end abruptly at the precise "edge" of the void; it must taper off with distance. So, after we subtract out the effect of peculiar motion, we notice that galaxies within our cluster have faster Hubble flow the closer they are to the edge of the void, and slower if they are further away.

Which further implies that the curvature varies within our cluster, depending on distance from the edge of the void. Therefore clocks vary also. Our galaxy is in the future of "outbound" galaxies we observe in our cluster.

I don't know what point I'm making, it just seems weird.

Jon

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#17
In reply to #16

Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/08/2007 3:12 AM

Hi Jon.

"Do we observe that the accelerated expansion of the void (due to its internal curvature) is "pushing" our galaxy outwards, towards the center of our own cluster? Is this Hubble flow, or is it peculiar motion?"

I think it depends on whether that galaxy is gravitationally bound to the supercluster/wall that it belongs to. (Be careful, 'wall' is used as in the "great wall", not the edge of a void). If we are not bound to the superstructure, we will see everything move with the Hubble flow, with some peculiar velocities thrown in. This is like the Coma supercluster viewed from the Milky way.

If our galaxy at the edge of the void is bound to the supercluster/wall, any movement is peculiar, because there is no Hubble flow to speak of. This is like the Virgo supercluster from our vantage point. We are falling towards the Virgo supercluster, so the peculiar velocity outstrips the Hubble flow. In a way, it may be like you asked: "... is [ the void] "pushing" our galaxy outwards, towards the center of our own cluster?" But I doubt that. I think it's just the gravity of Virgo pulling us...

Jorrie

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#18
In reply to #17

Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/08/2007 4:53 AM

Hi Jorrie and Jon,

Still reading but cannot answer anything sensible since long time ago I lost the plot.

I am however interested and just hope that some other life after now I will be granted the brainpower needed to do my interest justice.

I cannot recognise much from what Stephen Hawkins wrote in his book, is it my misinterpretation, lack of memory or have his theories been overtaken?

Case491

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#19
In reply to #18

Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/09/2007 11:09 AM

Hi case491.

Stephen does not write all that well for us ordinary mortals - he lives in another dimension, as perhaps "the most cerebral being on Earth", as some-one expressed it (can't recall whom).

So do not feel too perturbed if you do not learn much from his writings.

Jorrie

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#20
In reply to #17

Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/10/2007 10:29 PM

Hi Jorrie,

In his paper, Wiltshire uses the term "wall observers" to include all observers located in bound galaxies. As a matter of shorthand, he seems to refer to galaxies as if they were all parts of the filaments and walls which make up void boundaries. I don't think the terminology matters.

You said: "If our galaxy at the edge of the void is bound to the supercluster/wall, any movement is peculiar, because there is no Hubble flow to speak of. This is like the Virgo supercluster from our vantage point."

That is the scenario I was trying to describe. But my point is that the "accelerated" expansion rate in the void (due to its slower clocks) must have effects that "slop over" onto the galaxies which make up the void boundary. Even though each of those galaxies is internally self-bound gravitationally, galaxy(ies) closest to the void must observer a Hubble flow which is accelerated as compared to observers in a galaxy (in the same bound cluster) whose galaxies are farther away from the void. The accelerated expansion rate can't just end precipitously on the "void side" of the boundary galaxy; because the boundary galaxy finds itself being moved outwards with the void at the accelerated rate. Otherwise it would be "overrun" by the expansion of the void. (Please excuse my colloquialisms).

When the "boundary galaxy" observes its situation, I do not think it will consider its motion towards galaxies in its cluster which are on the side "away" from the void to be peculiar motion. Instead, I think it would see a normal (but accelerated above the universe average) Hubble flow when looking in a direction parallel to the void surface, or toward the void; but it would see a distorted Hubble flow in the direction away from the void. In that direction, it would look something like peculiar motion, but I don't know if the apparent expansion rate would increase proportionally to distance (at least for some limited distance), or increase less than proportionally, or not increase at all, or even decrease with distance. It depends on how much the accelerated Hubble flow of the void "slops over" into the heart of the boundary cluster. Perhaps over a long period of time, the boundary cluster would tend to flatten out like a pancake parallel to the void surface. I think that the further an observed galaxy is away from the void (inside the cluster), the more the motion looks like regular peculiar motion.

Jon

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#21
In reply to #20

Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/10/2007 11:20 PM

Hi Jon, you wrote: "That is the scenario I was trying to describe. But my point is that the "accelerated" expansion rate in the void (due to its slower clocks) must have effects that "slop over" onto the galaxies which make up the void boundary. "

I think you meant "(due to its faster clocks)"? May well be, but just like we are 'falling peculiarly' towards the Virgo cluster, we cannot observe anything but peculiar movement. If we look at galaxies far beyond Virgo, they should look exactly like galaxies far beyond 'our local void' (the opposite direction) in terms of redshift/distance ratio. So we cannot tell...

You also wrote: "When the "boundary galaxy" observes its situation, I do not think it will consider its motion towards galaxies in its cluster which are on the side "away" from the void to be peculiar motion."

But the peculiar motions are as large or larger than the Hubble flow at these distances. I understood Wiltshire to argue that the fact that Edwin Hubble actually measured a linear distance bias at 'close ranges' is due to a clock bias, not an expansion factor inside clusters. I cannot buy your idea that the voids are 'pushing' the galaxies on the boundaries apart at all...

Jorrie

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#22
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Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/10/2007 11:30 PM

Hi Jorrie,

I don't mean literally that the void is "pushing" the boundary galaxy.

What I mean is that the boundary galaxy forms part of the outer boundary of the void. If the void is expanding at, say, 1.3x the average Hubble rate of the universe (because the clusters aren't expanding at all), then the boundary galaxies must observe themselves being "repositioned" at the 1.3x rate. Otherwise they would soon find themselves "inside" the void, which would just mean that in fact the void hadn't expanded at all.

I don't think I'm suggesting anything exotic; but the galaxies which define the outer surface of the void must have "relocation" rates that are in synch with the void's own expansion.

Jon

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#23
In reply to #22

Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/10/2007 11:59 PM

Hi again Jon.

Your "... then the boundary galaxies must observe themselves being "repositioned" at the 1.3x rate. Otherwise they would soon find themselves "inside" the void, which would just mean that in fact the void hadn't expanded at all." doesn't quite hold.

The voids are obviously expanding, but there are no observations indicating or theories forbidding galaxies to enter the voids. In fact, there are plenty of galaxies inside the voids, they are just not as dense there as in the filaments/walls. The big voids expand much faster than average peculiar motions detected, so the voids will always expand.

"... but the galaxies which define the outer surface of the void must have "relocation" rates that are in synch with the void's own expansion."

This is exactly what one expect in stock-standard cosmology - look in any direction, far away, and observe a void. Measure the redshift of the galaxies 'this side' of that void and also the redshifts 'that side' of the void. What will you find? Standard Friedmann stuff, not requiring Wiltshire to explain...

Jorrie

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#24
In reply to #23

Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/11/2007 1:30 AM

Hi Jorrie,

I'm puzzled why you're disagreeing with me about something that seems obvious on its face. You said:

"The voids are obviously expanding, but there are no observations indicating or theories forbidding galaxies to enter the voids. In fact, there are plenty of galaxies inside the voids, they are just not as dense there as in the filaments/walls."

I didn't say that galaxies are forbidden from entering voids. I just meant that, in general, if a void expands faster than the galaxies that border it can be "repositioned" outward, then all of the border galaxies will end up inside the void. When we look at the void, it will appear as though it hadn't expanded at all, because we will think that the border is represented by all of those "front row" galaxies that got "run over" by the expansion of the void.

I think it's very reasonable to say, as a general proposition, that border galaxies which define the surface of a void must find themselves over time "repositioned" outward from the center of the void at a rate equal to the void's radial expansion rate.

Wiltshire's contribution to this picture is to explain why voids have a faster expansion rate (say, 1.3x) than the "universal average" expansion rate calculated by FRW.

Jon

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#25
In reply to #24

Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/11/2007 2:06 AM

Jon, what you wrote here: "I just meant that, in general, if a void expands faster than the galaxies that border it can be "repositioned" outward, then all of the border galaxies will end up inside the void." does not make sense in any cosmological model that I know of. Unless there are peculiar motions, voids and galaxies just go with the Hubble flow. Hubble flow does not 'reposition' anything, peculiar motion does.

You also wrote: "I think it's very reasonable to say, as a general proposition, that border galaxies which define the surface of a void must find themselves over time "repositioned" outward from the center of the void at a rate equal to the voids radial expansion rate."

If we replace the word "repositioned" with "expanded", this is standard Friedmann, where voids are the only places where space can be said to expand. You are apparently confused about something here, but I'm not sure what.

"Wiltshire's contribution to this picture is to explain why voids have a faster expansion rate (say, 1.3x) than the "universal average" expansion rate calculated by FRW."

What do you think happens in Friedmann cosmology, if say the voids are making up 60% of the linear distance scale? The same, so this is not a "Wiltshire effect". You are perhaps reading more in what Wiltshire wrote than what he intended. His is a clock and curvature effect, not an expansion rate effect.

Jorrie

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#26
In reply to #25

Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/11/2007 2:21 AM

Hi Jorrie,

Standard FRW requires a dark energy expansion rate component to substantially supplement the standard Einstein-de Sitter expansion rate component. Wiltshire's model does not, so clearly the voids are experiencing faster Einstein-de Sitter expansion in his model (from a wall observer's perspective) than the Einstein-de Sitter expansion component of standard FRW. That's because of the clocks and curvature differences.

Jon

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#27
In reply to #26

Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/11/2007 2:47 AM

Jon, now you have two 'slogging bouts' simultaneously: one here and one on PF!

"Standard FRW requires a dark energy expansion rate component to substantially supplement the standard Einstein-de Sitter expansion rate component."

You must have badly stated this, because as written, it's nonsense, sorry! You surely know that for a given Ho, the observed expansion rates are identical for whatever expansion model you wish. There is no difference between LCDM expansion rates and Wiltshire's model, because it's observed values; just the explanation differs, AFAIK.

Still not sure what the root of your problem is.

Jorrie

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#28
In reply to #27

Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/11/2007 1:04 PM

Hi Jorrie,

Well maybe my statement you cited doesn't add much to the discussion, but it's not "nonsense"; it is literally true. Yes the total expansion rate of voids is the same in FRW as it is in Wiltshire; I was just pointing out that Wiltshire does not calculate that result using only the traditional FRW equations.

I'm not sure that I have any "problem" or even any "point", I was just mentioning aspects of Wiltshire's model that I find to be particularly interesting.

You say that traditional FRW always has recognized that all of the expansion is now occurring in the voids which constitute only about 60% of total volume. But I don't recall that having been stated so crisply before Wiltshire, even in the textbooks.

How can the Hubble flow be directionally isotropic if it is entirely contained in voids? Shouldn't the expansion appear to have a directional vector to it, pointing away from the center of each void? For example, my void-boundary galaxy observes another void-boundary galaxy which is 90 degrees around the circle of the void from me. Do I observe the Hubble recession of that galaxy to be in a perpendicular direction with respect to me?

Jon

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#29
In reply to #28

Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/11/2007 1:38 PM

Hi Jon, you wrote: "You say that traditional FRW always has recognized that all of the expansion is now occurring in the voids which constitute only about 60% of total volume."

It depends a bit on the definition of 'voids'. There are the BIG ones, but there are also very many small ones - in fact any volume between structures that are not gravitationally bound can be called a 'void". Whenever a structure is gravitationally bound, everyone agreed long ago that it is not expanding, just floating as a whole with the Hubble flow. So where did all the spatial expansion take place?

"How can the Hubble flow be directionally isotropic if it is entirely contained in voids?"

On the smaller scales, it is not isotropic, so what you refer to could just be viewed as peculiar motion. When you go to the real large distances, the Hubble flow swamps all peculiar motion.

"Do I observe the Hubble recession of that galaxy to be in a perpendicular direction with respect to me?"

Hubble recession is radial by definition (it's redshift determined). Any observable transverse motion is peculiar by definition. But you can't observe transverse motion at large distances, so...

That galaxy 90 degrees from you, around the rim of the void, might have a Hubble flow below the average for the distance, but if you can determine its proper distance independently, you can just say that it apparently has a peculiar motion towards you. How could you know otherwise?

Jorrie

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#30
In reply to #29

Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/11/2007 2:01 PM

Dear Jorrie,

I enjoy reading all this but it becomes painfully clear that I am miles off even starting to inderstand what all this is really about. I would love to read about it though as I like reading and I like exploring my universe. You already know I am an amateur gazer but I also like to know more about it. It is nice to impress visitors with telescope images of the planets and such, but the science to go with it is eaqually impressing so here goes the question.

Given the fact I am a post graduate in engineering design and calcs, having done some of that maths to go with it, what book or books would you recommend that is an introduction into this kind of science about our universe?

I must point out that I ask you specifically as I expect you to have read those your self and you would therefor point me to a book through your own experience, not just from a curriculum or published list of recommended reading.

Hope I don't put you out to much with this request, if it is, just tell me.

Regards,

Kees

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#31
In reply to #30

Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/11/2007 10:24 PM

Hi Kees.

There are very many books today; the one that started to put me on the right cosmological track is: "Cosmic Coincidences" by John Gribben and Martin Rees. I eventually ended up reading Peebles and Peacock, both of which are heavy going, because the math is severe.

My website has 90% of my eBook "Relativity 4 Engineers" on it in the form of free downloads, with quite a few on cosmology. I suggest you read that before you tackle anything like Peacock or Peebles!

Jorrie

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#32
In reply to #31

Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/12/2007 8:13 AM

Thank you Jorrie, I will have a read through that (he said optimistically).

I'll let you know how I get on, much appreciated.

Regards,

Kees

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#14
In reply to #12

Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/06/2007 10:14 AM

Hi Jon, further remarks. You wrote: "The other odd thing is that we define voids essentially by their bubble walls -- there isn't much to see inside the void itself. So how can a void expand faster than the Hubble flow of the wall structures which contain it?"

I don't think Wiltshire claims that, but rather that the voids have negative curvature, meaning that their filament/wall edges move away from each other faster than what the energy density inside requires for being flat.

One thing that seems to bother you is the effect of the clumps of matter on the overall geometry. I have made it out for myself, using the balloon analogy, as follows (not that I'll use it on 'that other forum', ever!):

As the balloon is kinematically (or under negative pressure, if you want) expanding, the clumps of matter (normal and dark) create 'dents' on the surface, essentially lagging slightly behind the void areas. This does not stop the balloon from expanding there, but the matter moves towards the center of that density through peculiar motion, unless virially stabilized. It is all these 'dents', large and small, that 'brake' the expansion rate in general.

Dark energy, if it exists, is spread evenly over the skin of the balloon, it does not fall into the clumps, but it somehow plays its part in the braking of the expansion. At the same time, it tries to blow up the balloon at a faster rate. (Gee, I somehow hope dark energy disappears soon!)

Imperfect and perhaps dangerously confusing, but after all said on the physics forum, I still like it...

Jorrie

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#15
In reply to #14

Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/07/2007 2:14 AM

Hi again Jon, just some clarification to avoid confusion.

I wrote: "... the clumps of matter (normal and dark) create 'dents' on the surface, essentially lagging slightly behind the void areas."

"Lagging behind" here means in the hypothetical extra dimension into which the balloon expands, not spatial expansion-wise. In the end, I guess, this may cause different clusters (not bound to each other) to move apart at a slower rate, but I would not call that "lagging".

Jorrie

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#33

Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/12/2007 5:46 PM

Hi Jorrie:

Here's a new idea from an old radio engineer re cosmic acceleration: In 1904 Lee de Forest patented a simple tool for deriving the direction of an electromagnetic (EM) event from the difference in the arrival time of its signal at two receivers—now the basis of "spy" satellites, the GPS, etc. Measurements by such "stopwatch" (SW) tools depend on the speed of light (i.e., are quantized), and on clock motion relative to observed events, but not on motion relative to other observers of the same events. I have found that applying Einstein's principles of SR to this tool leads to a relativistic physics quite different from spacetime physics (the latter, I believe, fails to recognize dependencies between distance, time, and motion imposed by SR.)

Consider the following: Let two stopwatches collocated with two EM events by turned "on" and "off" by signals from those events. Applying SR to this simple tool shows that clock motion relative to these events, plus their separation in distance and time are not only simple functions of these SW values but that to satisfy spatial isotropy clock rates must be the same for all observers. While physical effects in this physics differ slightly from spacetime physics (my analysis shows the former passes the same classical tests for time dilation and transverse Doppler shift) small differences between their Doppler transforms appear to explain both the Pioneer blueshift and SNe Ia redshift anomalies.

Consider the latter: If v is the Newtonian velocity of a receding EM source derived from the ST Doppler transform, i.e., v/c = [1-(fR/f0)2]/[1+(fR/f0)2], then the SW velocity Vsw' for this source is 1-[(1-v/c)/(1+v/c)]1/2, or, simply 1-fR/f0. This shows that while v>Vsw at all receding velocities, v exceeds V by >1% only in the range 0.1<z<100 where cosmic acceleration is observed. Moreover, this "bubble" in the spacetime transform peaks at z =2.4, where v ~1.1349Vsw. The corresponding cosmic "jerk" (the derivative of this bubble) peaks at 12.93% at z = 0.37, strikingly consistent with the 10 to 15% reported by Riess at z = 0.46+0.13. This suggests that cosmic acceleration might come from a flawed spacetime physics rather than some strange force like "dark energy".

This possibility is reinforced by the fact that this same Doppler difference appears to explain the Pioneer blueshift anomaly, an effect quite separated from cosmic acceleration. Based on a simple first-order model for spacecraft-to-Earth annual velocity profiles I found that the SW-predicted blueshift is 8.5x10-8 cm/s2 vs. the reported value of 8.74+1.33x10-8 cm/s2.

Of course, if true, this suggests that Einstein himself failed to recognize the revolutionary implications of his two electrodynamic principles of SR, principles that may simply not be explainable by classical Newtonian concepts. (Of course, if by some remote chance these musings are true you may have to write a new book, "Engineering 4 Relativists"!)

Mac

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#34
In reply to #33

Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/12/2007 11:18 PM

Hi Mac, sounds interesting, but I have some difficulties understanding precisely what you say.

"Measurements by such "stopwatch" (SW) tools depend on the speed of light (i.e., are quantized), and on clock motion relative to observed events, but not on motion relative to other observers of the same events."

Quantized? I'm not aware of quantized effects in GPS, for example. The movement relative to other observers obviously never influences the result you get - it's just that observers moving relative to each other will get different results for the same events.

"I have found that applying Einstein's principles of SR to this tool leads to a relativistic physics quite different from spacetime physics (the latter, I believe, fails to recognize dependencies between distance, time, and motion imposed by SR.) "

Huh? Aren't spacetime physics and Einstein's SR the same thing in modern science?

"Consider the following: Let two stopwatches collocated with two EM events by turned "on" and "off" by signals from those events."

Before responding further, I need to understand your setup better. It will help if you can provide a sketch (hand drawn and scanned is good enough). You will also have to show the derivation of your value "Vsw' for this source is 1-[(1-v/c)/(1+v/c)]1/2, or, simply 1-fR/f0."

There is surely something wrong with your z in: "This shows that while v>Vsw at all receding velocities, v exceeds V by >1% only in the range 0.1<z<100 where cosmic acceleration is observed."

The apparent acceleration is only evident up to a redshift of about z~0.75, about halfway to our observational horizon, for the last 7 billion years or so.

I'll comment further once you clarified the above.

Jorrie

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#35
In reply to #34

Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/15/2007 7:19 PM

Hi Jorrie

Thanks for your quick response to my somewhat cryptic input. I must soon leave for a few days, but here is some feedback on your first two questions:

Quantized? I'm not aware of quantized effects in GPS, for example. The movement relative to other observers obviously never influences the result you get - it's just that observers moving relative to each other will get different results for the same events

I was referring to arrival time measurement accuracy of EM pulses which is limited by signal energy, Heisenberg uncertainty, and the quantum nature of EM signals. While this would likely not impact the "stopwatch" interpretation of SR, it might help link special relativity and quantized general relativity. (While similar quantum limits exist for GPS and electronic reconnaissance "spy" satellites, I believe other error sources dominate.)

Huh? Aren't spacetime physics and Einstein's SR the same thing in modern science?

Absolutely! However, SW physics suggests this may be unwarrented, i.e., that spacetime physics and SR are not equivalent because assumptions Einstein used to derive the Lorentz transform (LT), the foundation of spacetime physics fail to reflect Einstein's SR. One of these assumption is that Newton's concepts for distance, time, and motion apply to electrodynamic processes. However, Newtonian concepts are independent, while Einstein and Minkowski showed distance, time, and motion in electrodynamic processes are dependent variables. In de Forest physics, such variables are dependent functions of more elemental "stopwatch" values, values that depend on neither time-synchronous clocks nor rigid rods but do depend on the propagation times of EM signals and thus on c. Moreover these SW measurements are derivable directly from SR, yielding, in turn, simple relativistic definitions for distance, time, and motion different from Newton's plus testable relationships between these variables and c different from Lorentz' (one being that the SW version lacks cosmic acceleration!).

Einstein's other questionable (to me anyway) assumption is that differences between observers of the same events depend on their own relative motion. In his 1905 paper, Einstein noted that that all electrodynamic theories like his: "…have to do with relationships between rigid bodies (systems of co-ordinates), clocks and electrodynamic processes". In an about-face, he then defined motion between observers of the same events, an assumption that seems to violate Einstein's own principle of spatial isotropy: For example, let collocated events separated by time T in one frame be observed from other frames moving in different directions but at the same velocity v relative to the first. Spatial isotropy requires these moving frames measure the same values, which if true requires their clocks run at the same rate independent of their own relative motions. Of course in de Forest's physics, observer motion is relative to the observed events, and observers of the same events measure different separations only if their motions relative to those events differ, given that all clocks run at the same rate.

Of course, given that armies of physicists that have for over a century failed to uncover a single flaw in Einstein's analysis there must be a hidden flaw in mine. Maybe you can find it.

Mac

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#36
In reply to #35

Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/16/2007 4:30 AM

It's 4:20 a.m, I just woke up and read through this entire entry and now I have a headache. Thanks, guys. (LOL)

A couple of questions by a guy that never got into the math on this level-

1. Scientists in the last few years have succeeded in slowing the speed of light, stopping the speed of light and raising the speed of light to infinity (by teleportation). Since c if a fundamental part of e=mc2, doesn't that make somewhat of a hash of Einstein's theories?

2. Since light can be stopped in its tracks, so the speed = 0, doesn't that provide a situation where one CAN reach the speed of light since it is not impossible to have the square root of negative zero?

Or should I go back and get some more sleep?

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#38
In reply to #35

Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/16/2007 1:36 PM

Hi Mac, you wrote: "In de Forest physics, such variables are dependent functions of more elemental "stopwatch" values, values that depend on neither time-synchronous clocks nor rigid rods but do depend on the propagation times of EM signals and thus on c."

I'm not aware of "de Forest physics", just that the guy was an early inventor in the electronics industry.

"... For example, let collocated events separated by time T in one frame be observed from other frames moving in different directions but at the same velocity v relative to the first. Spatial isotropy requires these moving frames measure the same values, which if true requires their clocks run at the same rate independent of their own relative motions."

I think you have it wrong here. Different directions means different velocities (it's a vector, remember!) Two observers moving at the same speed, but in different directions do not agree that your two events, co-located for the one observer is co-located for the other observer. Hence they do not measure the spacetime interval between the two events as the same. There is no problem whatsoever for Einstein's SR to explain this.

If what you wrote is related to "de Forest physics", then it does not bode well for this 'variant' of relativity.

Jorrie

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#52
In reply to #38

Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/19/2007 10:31 AM

Hi again Jorrie: I appreciate your prompt, insightful comments, they will definitely help me get my act straight (if theoretically possible!).

You asked about "de Forest's physics": this Yale Ph. D., considered by many as the "Father of Radio", received over 300 patents, including the first radiolocation tool in 1904 (U.S. #771818). This simple device derived directions of RF signals from differences in their arrival times at separate receivers—the basis of GPS, "spy" satellites, etc. The latter may best illustrate its key features: Four time-difference ("stopwatch") measurements by a non-coplanar array of four satellites define locations and times of individual electromagnetic (EM) events. Unlike synchronized clocks and rigid rods, measurement by these tools depend on the speed of light and motion re the events. This raises the question: Would Einstein's two principles of SR applied to this physics lead to the same Lorentz Transform (LT) Einstein derived using classical clocks and rods? I found that this physics not only leads to relationships different from Lorentz' but even more interesting, to relativistic definitions for distance, time, and motion different from Newton's. While differences in physical effects predicted by these two versions are small, I found such differences are surprisingly consistent with both the Pioneer blueshift and SNe Ia redshift anomalies.

Re your second issue:

I think you have it wrong here. Different directions means different velocities (it's a vector, remember!) Two observers moving at the same speed, but in different directions do not agree that your two events, co-located for the one observer is co-located for the other observer. Hence they do not measure the spacetime interval between the two events as the same. There is no problem whatsoever for Einstein's SR to explain this.

I agree, up to a point! I did use the term velocity incorrectly. Also, I agree that collocated events in one frame separated by time T are not collocated for any other moving observer, but instead are separated by time T' > T and a finite distance D'/c, which, as defined by the LT, are: T'= T/[1-(v/c)2]1/2 and D'/c = T(v/c)/[1- (v/c)2]1/2. Note, however, spatial isotropy requires these values hold for all frames moving at the same speed v in any direction relative to the collocated events independent of their own relative motions. This, it seems, requires not only that clock rates and rod lengths in these frames be the same but also unaffected by their own relative motions. What am I missing?

This issue (if there is one!) goes away in De Forest's physics since motion is between clocks and events rather than between observers of the same events, and since differences between observers come solely from differences in their motion relative to those events. Importantly, this physics avoids one of the most puzzling unexplainable aspects of spacetime physics: that relativistic effects come from motion-induced shifts in clock rates and rod lengths. In SW physics, such effects come from motion-induced signal propagation times that are derivable directly from Einstein's two principles of SR. This not only avoids the paradoxical implications of the LT but reinforces the validity of Einstein's elegantly simple principles of SR by providing a straightforward, logical explanation of their real-world physics.

Hope this gives you a clearer understanding of my ideas re de Forest's "stopwatch" physics and Einstein's two principles of SR. If you wish I can provide a detailed derivation of SW relationships and some initial comparison of their physical effects re spacetime physics.

Thanks again for your comments!

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#53
In reply to #52

Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/20/2007 2:16 AM

Hi Mac. You wrote: "Note, however, spatial isotropy requires these values hold for all frames moving at the same speed v in any direction relative to the collocated events independent of their own relative motions. This, it seems, requires not only that clock rates and rod lengths in these frames be the same but also unaffected by their own relative motions. What am I missing?"

I'll respond more fully later (due to lack of time to make the required sketch now), but in short, the thing you are missing is that two observers moving at the same speed in different directions will have clocks along their direction of travel that are synchronized differently (using the Einstein synchronization method). They cannot measure the time interval without having at least two synchronized clocks at different spatial coordinates each. Although they will measure the same time interval, they will not agree on the synchronization of clocks. This in turn means that they will not agree that their clocks run at the same rate either, but it's a long story...

I suspect that "de Forest's physics" uses a different synchronization scheme and will hence not yield an invariant speed of light for every inertial frame. If so, it's back to an absolute frame of rest, which has been thoroughly disproved.

Till later, Jorrie

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#54
In reply to #52

Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/21/2007 8:20 AM

Hi again Mac, I'm back.

Before I get back to the real issue here, just a comment on: "This issue (if there is one!) goes away in De Forest's physics since motion is between clocks and events rather than between observers of the same events, and since differences between observers come solely from differences in their motion relative to those events."

In relativity theory, one cannot speak of movement relative to events, because an event is not an inertial frame. It is a single point in spacetime, which will have different coordinates in different inertial frames and those coordinates are fixed for a specific frame - the frame can't move relative to them. Frames can only move relative to each other. Again, "De Forest's physics" sounds a bit like 'absolute spacetime'.

The fallacy of the original argument can perhaps best be seen from the your: "I agree that collocated events in one frame separated by time T are not collocated for any other moving observer, but instead are separated by time T' > T"

Does this not strike you as funny: T' (time measured in the moving frame) > T (time measured in the reference frame), as you correctly pointed out? This means that the clock of the moving frame must be 'ticking faster' than the clock of the reference frame, contrary to the usual statement: "moving clocks lose time", or "moving clocks tick slower". Paradoxical it seems!

The answer that there is no "slowing down" of clocks in special relativity. What it says on clocks can be summarized as follows: The clock of any inertial frame in which two events are spatially co-located will record a shorter time between the events than the clock of any inertial frame in which the events are not spatially co-located. This is the essence of the Lorentz transformations (LTs) for time and is consistent with your statement above.

To hammer this home, consider the Minkowski diagram to the right. In the black reference frame, the two events (black dots) are co-located in space and separated in time only. In the frames of Pam (red) and Jim (blue), who are traveling at the same speed in the reference frame, but in opposite directions, the events are not co-located. The axes of Pam and Jim are however symmetrical around the cT axis and hence they measure the same time intervals between the events: ctPam = ctJim > ct. Note that xPam = -xJim. The values are dependent on the speeds relative to the reference frame and are given by the LTs, as you pointed out.

With this rather simple view, every "time paradox" in special relativity disappears instantly and forever... It is useless to argue whether Pam and Jim's clocks tick at the same rate, because you cannot tell and they cannot tell either, at least in the scenario sketched. The clock rate and simultaneity issues that I mentioned in my previous reply all fade away when everything is tied to the measurement of events in spacetime.

Jorrie

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#55
In reply to #54

Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/22/2007 11:32 PM

Hi Jorrie: I am having a hard time keeping up with you, but I do appreciate your quick responses and insightful analyses.

We agree I believe that spatial isotropy requires Pam and Jim in your example to measure the same values for distance and time independent of their own relative motion (which at least for v<0.5c, can range from "0" to 2v). But doesn't this contradict Einstein's conclusion in his 1905 paper that differences between observers of the same events come from shifting clock rates and rod lengths?

We also agree, I believe, that Einstein's two elegantly simple principles of SR are valid (for a host of good reasons). However I do believe that Einstein's use of Newtonian concepts to derive the LT fail to accurately explain his own SR. This is where de Forest's physics, quite different from Einstein's clocks and rods, comes in; a physics which suggests that measurements by the latter tools are blind to fundamental dependencies between distance and time imposed by Einstein's own SR.

Two key questions: How are distance and time defined in de Forest's physics? And, if these definitions differ from those measured by classical clocks and rods, how does this SW physics differ from spacetime physics? Consider the first. (This is the fun part.) Let two EM events, each collocated with a stopwatch (SW) separated by any time T' and distance D', be turned "ON" and "OFF" by signals generated by the two events, resulting in SW values of C0' and C1'. (This form of de Forest's physics is directly comparable to classical clocks and rods.) Assume that distance D' and time T' between these EM events are defined by functions f(C0',C1') and g(C0',C1'). The question then is: What must these functions be to satisfy SR? I recently found a simple solution that not only provides the latter, but also leads to relativistic definitions for distance, time, and motion different from Newton's, and to relationships between these variables slightly different from the LT.

Functions f and g are unambiguous for simultaneous (space-like) and collocated (time-like) events if, by convention, the two SW values, C0 and C1, are positive if turned "on" by the local event (the event collocated with that clock), otherwise negative. Then, for simultaneous (space-like) events, propagation times, P0 and P1, to opposite clocks are equal (to satisfy spatial isotropy) and, P0 = P1 = C0 = C1 = D/c; D/c = (C0+C1)/2; and T = (C0-C1)/2 = 0. Similarly, for collocated (time-like) events, P0 = P1 = 0 and C0 = C1 = T = (C0-C1)/2; and D/c = (C0+C1)/2 = 0. These two symmetrical cases are not only Newtonian, satisfy SR, and equal Minkowski's proper interval, but also can be used to derive signal propagation times and SW values in more general relativistic cases where both time and distance are finite.

For example, let collocated events separated by time T in one frame (the one and only "proper" frame out of the infinity of all such frames) be observed by a second frame moving at speed v relative to from the first. While both signal propagation times in the first frame are zero, the two clocks collocated with these events in the second are separated by vT, and both signal propagation times are finite. Moreover, from the un-primed frame, signal propagation times P0' and P1' in the second primed frame appear asymmetrical. That is, following the first event, the clock collocated with that event in the second frame is moving away from the second event—the source of its "off" signal—while the second clock is approaching its "on" signal from the first event. Given the finite speed of light: P0' = T/(1-Vsw'/c) -T and P1' = T/(1+Vsw'/c)+T. Assuming clock rates are the same in both frames: C0' = P0'+T = T/(1-Vsw'/c) and C1' = P1'-T = -T/(1+Vsw'/c). Note that Vsw' is a function of relativistic values, C0' and C1', (e.g., Vsw' = 1-T/C0'), and thus differs (though only slightly) from Newtonian motion, v, between the two material frames.

These relationships, plus the three following assumptions, define the "Stopwatch Hypothesis": (1) The above SW definitions for time and distance [i.e., Tsw' = (C0'-C1')/2 and Dsw'/c = (C0'+C1')/2] hold for any two EM events measured from any inertial frame; (2) Motion is between such measurement frames and the proper frame for the observed events; and (3) Einstein's two principles of SR are valid. This gives the following definitions for any observer of any two time-like EM events whose raw SW measurements are C0' and C1':

Tsw' = (C0'-C1')/2 = T/[1- (Vsw'/c)2]

Dsw'/c = (C0'-C1')/2 = T(Vsw'/c)/[1- (Vsw'/c)2]

Vsw'/c = Dsw'/cTsw' = (C0'+C1')/(C0'-C1')

These relativistic definitions clearly differ from Einstein's LT based on Newtonian assumptions, i.e.: D'/c = T(v/c)/[1- (v/c)2]1/2, T'= T/[1- (v/c)2]1/2, and v/c = D'/cT'. For any observer of any pair of time-like events with SW values C0' and C1', these relationships show that:

Tsw' - (Vsw'/c)(Dsw'/c) = [(Tsw')2-(Dsw'/c)2]/(Tsw') = -2C0'C1'/(C0'-C1') = T

While these SW functions equal Minkowski's ST interval, [(D'/c)2T'2]1/2 = (–T)1/2, in magnitude, they are mathematically "real" rather than "imaginary", and they differ in physical interpretation. That is, while Minkowski's interval in spacetime physics is the geometric separation of two EM events, in SW physics it represents their physical (Newtonian) separation observed directly only in their proper frame (where time-like events are collocated, space-like events are simultaneous). In other non-proper frames, propagation distances increase and become asymmetrical, increasing derived values for time and distance, relativistic values assignable to measurement distortion rather than physical changes in the measurement tools. Moreover, unlike the unexplainable motion-induced shifting clock rates and rod lengths in spacetime physics, differences between observers in SW physics come from differences in signal propagation times, times derivable directly from Einstein's own SR.

Similar relationships for space-like events—simultaneous in their proper frames—are derived from the above functions by replacing Tsw' with Dsw'/c and C1' with -C1'. Note that while both physics assume the validity of Einstein's two principles of SR, each relies on slightly different additional assumptions: ST physics on Newtonian definitions for distance, time, and motion; SW physics on the "SW hypothesis" defined above. While differences between these physics are small, e.g. both pass past tests for time-dilation and transverse Doppler shift, such differences are potentially testable. I have found three anomalous situations in ST physics that appear to accurately reflect these differences. One being the unexpected cosmic acceleration of SNe Ia supernovae which reflects the difference in Doppler-derived velocities given by these two physics: Vsw'/c = 1-[(1-v/c)/(1+v/c)]1/2.

Is this engineering alternative to ST physics interesting, or what? Mac

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#56
In reply to #55

Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/23/2007 10:39 AM

Hi Mac, you asked: "Is this engineering alternative to ST physics interesting, or what? "

Sure is, but it is difficult to comprehend without a few sketches!

I'm skeptical, but I will surely look at it more closely sometime next week and let you know what I think.

Jorrie

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#59
In reply to #55

Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/23/2007 11:23 PM

Hi Mac, here is a partial response to your very long consideration of "de Forest's physics".

You wrote: "We agree I believe that spatial isotropy requires Pam and Jim in your example to measure the same values for distance and time independent of their own relative motion (which at least for v<0.5c, can range from "0" to 2v)."

The statement in brackets again hints at "absolute space"! In Einstein's relativity, relative speeds can never exceed c and you can add c + c to get c, as I guess you know very well!

"But doesn't this contradict Einstein's conclusion in his 1905 paper that differences between observers of the same events come from shifting clock rates and rod lengths?"

This is a pretty old view. The major relativistic difference between observers in relative motion is how they synchronize their clocks and how they view simultaneity. The apparent Lorentz contraction and time dilation are consequences of these differences only. As long as two observers stay inertial in free space, you can never say whose rods are contracted and whose clock rate is slower.

"We also agree, I believe, that Einstein's two elegantly simple principles of SR are valid (for a host of good reasons). However I do believe that Einstein's use of Newtonian concepts to derive the LT fail to accurately explain his own SR."

On de Forest's physics, I'll defer till after Christmas and possibly start a new thread "Alternative Relativity" on my Blog. I do not want the mainstream flow of ideas on my Blog to be 'contaminated' by alternatives, for the benefit of readers and students that might pass by. I do however believe that alternative ideas may prove useful, provided that they are clearly specified as 'alternative'. (I already have an "Alternative Cosmology" thread running: http://cr4.globalspec.com/blogentry/2943/Alternative-Cosmologies)

Regards and a Merry X-mas!

Jorrie

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#60
In reply to #59

Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/24/2007 9:10 AM

Hi again Mac, some more partial comments.

You wrote: "… Let two EM events, each collocated with a stopwatch (SW) separated by any time T' and distance D', be turned "ON" and "OFF" by signals generated by the two events, resulting in SW values of C0' and C1'. (This form of de Forest's physics is directly comparable to classical clocks and rods.)"

Without a diagram or much more elaborate definition and description, this is quite unclear, e.g., it is not clear which event turns which stopwatch ON and OFF and if C0' and C1' are starting or ending values. A simple hand drawn sketch is required! Just answering these two questions would probable just bring up another one, which a sketch could simply have avoided.

"Functions f and g are unambiguous for simultaneous (space-like) and collocated (time-like) events if, by convention, the two SW values, C0 and C1, are positive if turned "on" by the local event (the event collocated with that clock), otherwise negative. Then, for simultaneous (space-like) events, propagation times, P0 and P1, to opposite clocks are equal (to satisfy spatial isotropy) and, P0 = P1 = C0 = C1 = D/c; D/c = (C0+C1)/2; and T = (C0-C1)/2 = 0. Similarly, for collocated (time-like) events, P0 = P1 = 0 and C0 = C1 = T = (C0-C1)/2; and D/c = (C0+C1)/2 = 0."

Probably due to the uncertainty on the meaning of C0 and C, the meaning of the functions is also unclear. Not trying to be pedantic, it is problematic if things are not defined well. Another case in point is that "spacelike" do not mean simultaneous events. It means that those events are separated by a space interval larger than the time interval. In order not to confuse our readers, it is important to stick to standard terms and meanings. It seems that you allocate the "proper frame" so that spacelike intervals are simultaneous and if it is a timelike interval, then the "proper frame" is chosen so that the events are co-located. What do you do it there are three or more events? While you have defined "proper frame" somewhat, I have not noticed this as a standard term and hence you may define it like this if you want. I would have preferred to just say "the inertial frame in which the two events are co-located" or "the inertial frame in which the two events are simultaneous".

"For example, let collocated events separated by time T in one frame (the one and only out of the infinity of all such frames) be observed by a second frame moving at speed v relative to from the first. While both signal propagation times in the first frame are zero, the two clocks collocated with these events in the second are separated by vT, and both signal propagation times are finite."

It is unclear what you mean by "the two clocks collocated with these events in the second are separated by vT". Is it spatial separation in the second frame or is it propagation time (in the proper frame) divided by c, or what? It looks like you mean spatial separation as measured in the second frame, but then it does not agree with the Lorentz transformations…

Before some of these issues are not cleared up, preferably with a sketch of some sorts, I do not think the discussion can go forward fruitfully. I'll let it rest for a while.

Jorrie

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#57
In reply to #34

Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/23/2007 12:37 PM

Believe I failed before to address your following comment:

"There is surely something wrong with your z in: "This shows that while v>Vsw at all receding velocities, v exceeds V by >1% only in the range 0.1<z<100 where cosmic acceleration is observed."

The apparent acceleration is only evident up to a redshift of about z~0.75, about halfway to our observational horizon, for the last 7 billion years or so."

I was referring to the difference in velocity derived from their Doppler transforms which does form a "bubble" in this regime that approximates the unexpected obsevations of SNe Ia up to z~2, about where the observed acceleration seems to peak. The derivative of this acceleration, or "jerk", predicted by the difference between v and Vsw peaks at z of 0.37 at 12.90%, compared to the measured value of 10 to 15% at a z of 0.46+1.3. (Riess A G et al, Feb. 2004 "Type Ia supernovae discoveies at z>1 from the Hubble space telescope: evidence for past deceleration and constraints on dark energy evolution" arXiv.org.astro-phy/0402512)

I can provide my analysis if desired. Mac

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#58
In reply to #57

Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/23/2007 10:35 PM

Hi Mac, I still fail to comprehend what you say here: "I was referring to the difference in velocity derived from their Doppler transforms which does form a "bubble" in this regime that approximates the unexpected observations of SNe Ia up to z~2, about where the observed acceleration seems to peak."

From the paper you referred to later (Riess et.al), the changeover from decelerating to accelerating expansion sits at z=0.46+-0.13. So where does the z~2 come into it? It is far inside the decelerating expansion regime.

My z~0.75 seems a little overstated, but it is true that it is about where the deceleration becomes evident. Around z=0.46, the expansion rates seem pretty constant.

Are you perhaps referring to the big void that was discovered some time ago?

Jorrie

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#61
In reply to #57

Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/27/2007 12:09 PM

Hi Mac. You wrote: "I can provide my analysis if desired. Mac"

I have created the Blog Thread on "alternative relativity": http://cr4.globalspec.com/blogentry/4397/Alternative-Relativity

I may be useful if you post your full theory and analysis there so that all can have a good look at it. CR4 is a pretty pertinent site on the search engines and my relativity Blog entries feature well on Google, at least...

Regards,

Jorrie

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#62
In reply to #61

Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/29/2007 7:27 PM

Good idea Jorrie--I will definately be contributing.

Thanks, Mac

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#37

Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/16/2007 11:28 AM

I am sooooo not the guy to understand the mathematics here. And I am going to, instead of answer anything, ask/describe something.

If there were a 'big bang' type of beginning would it not be demonstrated by a pressure wave boundray? It erpupts outward as the leading edge and acts as the containing edge for the energy/matter within. Lets call that, the expanding wave - non gravitational force. Where matter is gathered up to form that which we know in the universe it acquires mass and as a result demonstrates gravity; The axial rotation of bodies allows the nongrav force to appear as what we see/experience as gravity. So by this line of thinking we are keeping gravity honest and in order through a simple inverse symmetry.

And now that I have answered absolutely nothing, I wait for my underpaid educators to point me one way or another.

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#39
In reply to #37

Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/16/2007 2:30 PM

I'm with you CR3 (not the expert, but just like to follow along). Anyway, seems to me like you make a good point. Perhaps the CMB (cosmic microwave background) is exactly the boundary that you suggest.

"And now that I have answered absolutely nothing".

Sometimes a statement becomes the answer. Perhaps Jorrie will enlighten us?

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#40
In reply to #37

Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/16/2007 10:40 PM

Hi CR4, you wrote: "If there were a 'big bang' type of beginning would it not be demonstrated by a pressure wave boundray? It erpupts outward as the leading edge and acts as the containing edge for the energy/matter within. Lets call that, the expanding wave - non gravitational force."

In a way, yes... The BB is supposed to have created space and time and as that spacetime expands, it contains everything inside it. So it's a bit hard to think of it as a "wave boundary". Evidence shows that matter is formed inside this '4-d bubble' from the vast amount of energy contained within...

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#41
In reply to #40

Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/16/2007 11:29 PM

Jorrie = First, thank you for the promotion from cr3 to cr4 (my son is cr4)

Secondly, thank you for your response.

Finally, so it is assumed that this expansion is occurring at the speed of light correct? Is there anything that is theorized to move faster than C? And there is nothing that has ever been observed faster than C, but is there something we would like to see moving greater than C for mathematical comfort?

cr3

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#42
In reply to #41

Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/16/2007 11:39 PM

Hi again CR3 - sorry, demoted again!

The expansion of space is not limited to c, it can be at any speed. The speed limit is for things moving through space. In fact the observable universe is though to have expanded at just over 3c so far. We think it is about 14 billion years old and has a radius of over 45 billion light-years today.

The theoretical things moving faster (and only faster) than c is called tachyons. Wiki the term and read some more...

Jorrie

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#43
In reply to #42

Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/16/2007 11:54 PM

Now, wait a minute, Jorrie...

In the warp travel thread, you state that nothing can exceed the speed of light and now you have the whole universe expanding at 3C.

You can't have it both ways. Either the speed of light is an absolute or it is not.

So which is it?

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#44
In reply to #43

Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/17/2007 12:20 AM

Hi again surplusdealdude, read again, carefully...

It is like if you find yourself a "surplusdeal" Sabre F86, unable of breaching the speed of sound in level flight. Now fly it level at full throttle, but with a stratospheric jet-stream and find your ground speed to exceed the speed of sound.

The original expansion rate of the observable universe's horizon may have been as high as 1026c. Space can expand as fast as it likes according to Einstein's relativity theory - well, almost... Quantum field theory predicts an upper limit of about 1032c.

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#45
In reply to #44

Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/17/2007 2:07 AM

So, if we have 3 booster rockets, each capable of going .75C, their speeds can be added together by the last rocket to be fired, and it'll be able to go 2.25C ?

No matter how the speed is achieved, einstein can't simultaneously state that nothing can travel faster than light and then state that it can. I would think that's a hole in the theory or at least an exception worth investigating.

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#46
In reply to #45

Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/17/2007 3:03 AM

Hi again.

Your 3 boosters will sadly only achieve 0.994c in the original reference frame. You have to add the three velocities relativistically as: v' = (v1+v2)/(1+v1v2) and then again v = (v'+v3)/(1+v'v3).

You said: "... einstein can't simultaneously state that nothing can travel faster than light and then state that it can. I would think that's a hole in the theory or at least an exception worth investigating."

So how did that F86 Sabre jet in the jet-stream achieve apparent supersonic speed in level flight? Through a hole in the theory?

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#47
In reply to #46

Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/17/2007 8:21 AM

AAARRRGH.

Well, in the F86 example, the plane coupled itself to the "aether", for want of a better word, and added it's speed to that of the "aether".

I'm not sure that's a good analogy anyway - the problem with the sound barrier was never achieving the speed - it was that the planes shattered at the point where they went through the sound barrier. But I see where the analogy can be used.

In any case, you have a non-quantum situation where you have something happening and then not happening at the same time - I have a problem with that. (Unless dark matter is a quantum effect? - then it would be allowed)

So, is dark matter assumed to exist only on a quantum level?

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#48
In reply to #47

Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/17/2007 9:09 AM

"Well, in the F86 example, the plane coupled itself to the "aether", for want of a better word, and added it's speed to that of the "aether"."

Precisely!

Just like the F86 is carried along with the jet-stream without having to battle the sound barrier, the far-away galaxy is carried along with the expanding space without having the battle the light barrier. As a matter of fact, a very distant galaxy can be perfectly at rest relative the space around it, but still be carried away from us at a rate faster than the speed of light. It's just that we cannot observe such a galaxy anyway - it's light will never reach us.

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#49
In reply to #48

Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/17/2007 9:35 AM

BUT - That galaxy can only move at a maximum of 1/2C relative to us (assuming that both of us are moving in opposite directions at the same speed. So, if I've read this right, you're saying that the maximum speed that any far-off galaxy can move relative to us is a hairsbreath under 2C, correct?

Otherwise, we still have the same problem in that something's moving faster than light.

Your comment that 'It's just that we cannot observe such a galaxy anyway - it's light will never reach us.' is interesting in that it suggests the possibility that our "known" universe isn't the whole ball of wax - if a super-universe exists outside those boundaries, invisible to us because its light never reaches us, then wouldn't that throw the supposed age of the universe into the dumpster and make a hash of a lot of the theories that exist currently?

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#50
In reply to #49

Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/17/2007 9:42 AM

Nw you are touching the thoughts that aggravate me. I am sooo far out of the 'learned' group here.

But, I don't see how we can even begin to assume things like universal age, speed restraints and the like, when there are these types of voids in the known vs unknown, it is all so very theoretical---ughhhhh It makes my brain itch.

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#51
In reply to #49

Re: Cosmic Clocks

12/17/2007 1:01 PM

Hi surplusdealdude, nope, you did not listen (read) what I said before...

Reread the addition of velocities rule above, where 0.5c + 0.5c does not equal c, but rather (0.5+0.5)/(1+0.5*0.5)c = 0.8c.

Distant galaxies that we can observe recedes from us at speeds less than c. The ones receding at rates greater than c is too far away for light to have reached us in the age of the universe.

Your last question requires a longer answer than what I have the energy to type. Hence, at the risk of infuriating you, I'll have to refer you to my website, where I have typed it all out before. The cosmology part is completely free and you can start downloading the pdfs from here. There are four cosmology pdfs in total...

Jorrie

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