For Whom the Wind Blows

"Congratulations on buying an EziBreze! The perfect present for your children's children! In just under three generations (based on normal usage and average to gale force winds) your Ezibreze will have paid for itself ... Making clean, free electricity all the way!"

Good, honest marketing, my hat goes of to them.

They must build these turbine and converter systems pretty will for them to atleast last for 3 generations. It WILL last atleast that long so I can make my money back won't it?. Not to worry, I am sure the company will still be around in 100 years to answer customer feedback.

I think I will stick with my MVA scale turbines thank you.

A report in the UK news shows that wind farms here are only achieving 25% of their predicted output so it's not just the amateurs who get it wrong.

You have it all wrong. It so happends that 25% is enough to produce the amount electricity for the entire year, if you choose the right size wind turbine.

If your getting only 25% of the predicted output power you expected, then to produce enough to meet your planned 100% generation demand you would have had to design the windfarm initially with an additional 300% safety margin (atleast). So, no, you have it wrong. It is also a bit unlikely that you are going to replace all the wind towers (well, you wouldn't because you would have been fired if you made a mistake as big as this).

Didn't the planners do a proper study before they installed the wind farm(s) (or did the just throw all the wind towers right next to each other thinking the more towers the better).

That was really humorous - reminds me of all the CYA warnings we see for other products, including 'green' ones.

For a UK website, they had a lot of interesting other articles as well. I'm wondering when the price will come down to get <5-year payback for this much better UK turbine design, and get it built en-masse somewhere for some real-world data.

My personal favorite for the US using a nice fully-integrated package with inverter and all - not that I have the bucks to invest in one - was picked up by Popular Science this year and has already won several awards...look for it to at least make some money for the company once they start delivering a bunch of these SkyStreams. I'd love to have one myself.

One of our new wind farms I was recently at commissioning (103 turbines located in the Tararua ranges). Yearly average wind speed ~10m/s. It was 16m/s (57km/h) that day and it took the hardhat right off my head. Our added stage will double the capacity (ya).

Most efficient wind farm in the world (apparently), and largest in the southern hemisphere. It is also located near our Parliament, so I think all that hot air also helps.

Great Photo, thanks Jack of all trades, as you are clearly well versed in this subject, I have a question that has puzzled me for years. I presume the swept area of a wind turbine is proportional to the power output, roughly, as height must also affect things from my experience flying kites.

Given that the volume of a structure generally increases to the 'cube' i.e. twice the dimension, 2 x 2 x 2 = Eight times the material needed to manufacture the turbine, but as the swept area only increases to the 'square' of the dimension, i.e. twice the size 2 x 2 = Four times, not eight times the power output.

My question is: If these assumptions are not grossly in error, is there an optimum size beyond which the law of diminishing returns negates the economics. (I accept that some cost savings may be made by making a turbine larger.)

The simple answer is yes, but it starts to get more complicated when you have to factor in that the higher the turbine, the better (and even this has complications).

Thanks Jack, I am aware of some of the complications. way back in the 1980's I used to peer review text books...only the mathematics....One of those was a book on wind power, sadly the author had made a slip with a decimal point, and continued with the error in the rest of the calculation. The book was withdrawn from every UK Library. not just for the one slip. A real shame, because it would have been worth a re-print.

Height, I seem to recall made an enormous difference. As most kite flyers well know.

I was astonished to read of the quarter megawatt output from a mere 14 inch diameter rotor, in the flywheel battery illustrated above, made by GlobalSpec listed Active Power Inc. I feel sure wind-n-flywheel would make a good marriage in certain situations.

Ah yes, small slips can make a big difference. I was flying back to Auckland yesterday when the stewardess handed out the meal. I was slightly shocked to find out the small pot of water they provided contained 100 million litres (100ML clearly displayed on the label) <sigh>. Perhaps there has been a technical development while I was away that allows vast quantities of matter to be compressed into an amazingly small space. Perhaps not.

Kite wind generation and flywheel development that is currently going on looks quite promising, and flywheels make more logical sense than battery banks for wind power.

A 'Typo' never gets a book withdrawn. Tippex + Lettraset and the jobs fixed. The librarians do it all the time, I have heard. (place an 'erata slip' in the page and pencil mark the 'typo' and next time you see the book it may have been corrected) I also recall from that book, something about wind-power being useful to 'Top-Up' (excuse the non-tech language) Power transmission lines. Flywheels might be advantageous? I wouldn't know for sure.

One happy ending to the sad tale, another of the 'mistakes' was an exponent, a power was raised short of an integer....i.e. 5.678^4 (whatever) was written as 5.678^3, quite a big difference to the output. I had to consult on that one. It made wind-power a lot more attractive.

Those kite windmills scare me a bit here in UK. As long as there is a safe place to land I suppose they would be OK.

How about France.

'a toute vapeur.'...we are on the case. a nice long cable....say 35 miles and a good breeze from the North.....now back to the subject. Above is an elementary no-frills drawing of how wind/air can be increased in velocity. I mentioned that a wind-sock as you see on aircraft runways can be made into a conical spiral, with contrasting colours and a fisherman's 'spoon' bearing, the wind-sock is far more visible. and the speed of rotation a better indication as to ground wind speed.

I have often pipe-dreamed of a tall tower held up by guy-ropes. each guy-rope has a large sheet of UV proofed Kevlar Sail. The intention being to 'train'/'direct' the wind down to a wind turbine nearer ground level. The wind turbine might have to be mounted on a circular rail track?....to catch different wind directions. If the wind blew too hard, just furl up a bit more sail?......You are the expert Jack, do you think it might work?... maybe worth a small scale trial?...perhaps with all those sails, the entire thing could rotate? i.e a solid concrete circular affair with the tensioned guy-ropes attached to an internal rail ('Train baladeur')...... ....back to Windows Paint-shop, I suspect.

Hmmmm, maby, but I don't think the benefit of increased air flow over the blades could be countered by the cost of the sail and its associated rigging, control equipment, etc. I am not aware of any patents on this but I have a feeling it has been atleast tried before.

I still like the kite generator idea, but it really needs more work before it is going to be viable. There still is a lot of potental for harnesing wind and sea energy for us to yet explore.

Perhaps developments into VERY deep core geothermal power stations. So much potential here.

pretty site ! things will get better ...

Hi Jack, I have spent a happy night here in Bonnie Colne, playing with a discarded component from an old dishwasher, a sort of turntable. start it spinning at a revolution per four seconds, and it keeps spinning for about a minute....nice bearing...effectively a one foot wheel with four spokes.

Now, I have been hanging pendulums of different length and weight from it,......very interesting,....I don't think those vanes need to be as wide as all that, somewhere between six inches and a foot. I think a prototype should use seat-belt type strapping, one can have 'tensioners' as used by lorry drivers to keep their tarp taught. I am starting to like this project very much. Materials should not come to much more than a few hundred quid?.....Perhaps just ask a friend forester I know to leave one tall conifer tree standing,trim the branches and pollard it at a reasonable height, and we have our CR4 'Oscillating Toroid Dunce Cap Wind Generator'.....I will need plenty of three-phase rectifiers....the voltage will be intermittent.......yes, a very interesting project. I wonder if someone else has put a patent on it, I don't want to tread on toes..... by the way CR4 folk if doing patents, always sell a 'sole' manufacturing licence, and always buy an 'exclusive' manufacturing licence. the two are just not the same...at all,at all, as they say in the emerald isle.

Back to 'Windows Paintshop'....I guess changing the angle of attack of those 'glass-fibre covered marine-ply vanes' is going to be quite easy...........scale version first. Drop one of those magnets down a copper pipe it seems to take about twenty seconds to fall through. loads of 'damping potential' there. I have done a few sums, a 50 Kilowatt version is perfectly feasable....but that would be big engineering. May I borrow your 'Landscape Picture' to do an artist's impression?

Sure, just be aware that we will be placing it in some major engineering magazines for project demonstration and marketing purposes some time soon (I don't know which ones yet).

Also, nowdays it is very easy to look up patent search sites to find out what has been patented. I am still amazed at people who use the excuse of "well here is the patent for a similar idea to mine, so that means my idea works because the idea I am basing it on is patented" <sigh>. Hydrogen gas electrolysis designs are patented and they dont and will never work. They showed the Mythbusters episode recently regarding the internet design for running your car entirely on hydrogen gas being produced by an electrolyser powered off the car battery. Shockingly producing 3 or 4 tiny bubbles of hydrogen a second is not enough for a conventional engine to run. Who would have guessed . They also did the "magnet around the fuel line before the carb. to "allign" the fuel molecules before combustion for more efficiency" (with obvious results, or there lack of).

My favorate patent I have come across so far (excluding electrolysis and antigravity) is one regarding an electric mouse killer. Effectively the mouse gets electricuted when he stands with all four legs on a metal plate, the plate being connected to one side of the battery. I should also like to mention that the other side of the battery is not connected to create a circuit. With such a simple circuit you would think the designer would have at least built a prototype before wasting his/her money on a worthless patent.

Thanks Jack, and as you mention the same picture will likely be used in some major engineering magazines, perhaps it would be best to submit the 'Alteration' for your approval. It is such a perfect setting. Myself I think they look beautiful, but if that photo was in the Lake District, here in UK. The Prime Minister would probably receive an immediate vote of 'No Confidence' and have to take a ride in his Limo to Buckingham Palace to tender his resignation and call for a new untimely election.

Wind power is going to be crucial to our energy strategy. My dear friend Professor Ian Fells thinks a balance of three equal proportions is a sensible compromise. Renewable being one third, Nuclear and Fossil Fuel the balance. I concur unequivocally.

To give a flavour of my intended 'Artists Impression' I am thinking the 'masts' for this concept (Yet to be demonstrated feasible!!!) should be constructed from Stainless Steel covered Marine Ply/ Epoxy Glass Fibre. (Extruding glass fibre into the Rev Robert Sterling Cycle ...GOOD)......Gwowing Timber as a sustainable crop...also good......long term protection afforded by thin sheet stainless steel....economic.

My first prototype will be just a kids 'hoola-hoop' and ribbon from the charity shop. beer cans can be cut open and polished to look like stainless steel, though only Aluminium. One popular brand even do extra long cans......I am thirsty already.

Our dear friend 'Pranab' if you recall had me exasperated. but all is well that ends well. I was forced to revise my heat exchange physics. Some of our 16 inch diameter HDPE 100 Lb/Sq Inch pressure pipe will need cross flow heat exchange. so better have four concentric Aluminium tubes as well (three Phase) (the largest 16" to line the HDPE and possibly raise the pressure.......Low grade heat, as suitable for horticulture, could with an appropriate valve here and there raise the pressure considerably. I took careful note of the 'GlobalSpec' featured 400 degree Centigrade achieved by Glass covered collectors. nearly ten years ago our dear and much missed ,late Mayor of Bonnie Colne, Jo Belbin, bullied the council into having a Green Technology Exhibition. those heat tubes we were warned, were too hot to touch, even in the slight overcast weather that I saw them on.(selective coatings....our Company speciality for over 25 years)....So Jack, 80 feet tall gleaming steel cone masts. probably mounted atop a short 10 ft diameter natural stone/concrete turret with a door to get inside for maintenance.

The notion of compressed air also would propel a strong cylindrical magnet of much smaller diameter. The inertia of that little beauty would not deliver very low pressure compressed air. and when there was surplus wind electric three phase damping would be in order. It would also act as a 'starter-motor' in a light breeze...blah blah.

Time to load Stirling Stan's Encyclopedia of Rev. Robert Stirling Engines. that he so kindly posted to me. BTW... Thanks Stan. The heat source I fancy should be half a Gas Turbine Jet Engine. the exhaust should be fed Bernoulli-style with atomised coal dust...then sent to a fractional distillation plant. residual heat to power the Stirling Cycle. CO2 to be converted to dry ice or alternatively CVD Diamond components. i.e. extra Hydrogen and Oxygen required to mix into the hot plasma flame. we get the heat back after all. Stirling loves hot hot temperatures.

Be very careful when dealing or considering Sterling cycle and/or engines (See note December 28, 2006 in following link). Don can explain it far better than me. Many have fallen into the Sterling cycle trap.

http://www.tinaja.com/whtnu07.asp

A recent example is a company (last 5-10 years) failed to produce a working commercial Sterling engine (engineering tolerances required were insane, an order of magnitude smaller or more than what could be done). I only place Sterling engines slightly above that of free energy devices, and that is where it will stay until I have seen overwelming proof that it can be made to work as intended. Give me Geothermal plants any day.

Consider the possibility of perhaps passing your design off as an artwork (I have seen crazier things). Not sure about compressed air efficiencies when used like a battery or flywheel system

I wonder what ever happened to Pranab? (who could forget him).

Rear Admiral David Bawtree, (more Engineering credentials than fit most envelopes)

would have you 'Keel-Hauled' for ever repeating that statement again.

Sorry to be blunt. Jack but what the ???? powers Marine Buoys at sea. Made by the Philips Corporation. Stirling engines with a single corrugated disc. Engineering tollerances.....you could make one with a ruler and tin-snips.

I do get hot and bothered....The military side of me I suppose. Please accept my apology.

Postscript:- A Latin Phrase drummed into us at College

"Suppressio Veri Suggestio Falsi"

Our elders, with us sitting to Military Attention. informed us nearly 40 years ago, that humanity would need to stare deep into the deep pit of oblivion before they apprehended their predicament. This Forum is for Engineering Discourse, not Theological or Philosophical. I have spoken many times to very senior officers faced with the decision to terminate the Human Civilization and start again from scratch, as the best of two bad decisions. Though very sad to comply with standing order. the most common response was "They only have themselves to blame"

Here-here. Pity the threat of Nuclear war was not enough. Perhaps the (almost) end of the world due to a near miss by a huge asteroid would do it (Hey it worked in the Bruce Willis movie "Armageddon", although I am still at a loss as to why they needed Gatling guns on their vehicles, especially since they were looking hard at the spanners to try and save weight. Those crazy Americans).

"What doesn't kill us makes us stronger".

Forget Fiction, Jack, read this blog from The Officer's Club:-

On September 26th, 1983, Soviet Army Lt. Col Petrov settled into his command chair at the top secret Serpukhov-15 bunker outside of Moscow. Serpukhov-15's mission was similiar to the United States' NORAD, serving as the Soviet Union's central hub for the early warning satellites used to detect an inbound nuclear strike.

At roughly 30 minutes past midnight, Serpukhov-15's warning alarms erupted, indicating that an American ICBM was headed towards the Soviet mainland. Petrov knew that the Russian early warning system had a history of flaws, and dismissed the alarm as a glitch.

Then the computer signalled another inbound missile, and another, and another, adding up to a total of 5 inbound ICBMs, all MIRV capable (multiple independently-guided reentry vehicles....in layman's terms each missile had 3-10 nuclear warheads each, with each warhead with its own specific target).

Petrov later recalled the tension Serpukhov-15's control room:

I was supposed to supervise the combat crew. When the first launch happened, everyone was stupefied. After the first launch, I started giving orders, because in the room below, where there were five switchboards, and all the operators jumped out of their seats to see what my reaction was. I can only imagine what went on at the other posts.

In front of Petrov flashed a bright red button, blinking "START." He had two options: call the alarm a computer glitch -which would be a direct violation of his orders- and risk losing the USSR's retaliatory options, or press "START" and unleash hell.

In February of 1999, the Washington Post reported on the grave implications of pressing the "START" button:

Usually, Petrov said, one report of a lone rocket launch did not immediately go up the chain to the general staff and the electronic command system there, known as Krokus. But in this case, the reports of a missile salvo were coming so quickly that an alert had already gone to general staff headquarters automatically, even before he could judge if they were genuine. A determination by the general staff was critical because, at the time, the nuclear "suitcase" that gives a Soviet leader a remote-control role in such decisions was still under development.

The Post illustrated the enormous amount of stress that Petrov was under during the crisis, as:

electronic maps and consoles were flashing as he held a phone in one hand and juggled an intercom in the other, trying to take in all the information at once. Another officer at the early-warning facility was shouting into the phone to him to remain calm and do his job.

Petrov signalled the Soviet Rocket Forces and tenet commands: "false alarm." Petrov's gut instinct was right on the money, one of the USSR's space based warning satellites experienced a computer glitch that set off the klaxons at Serpukhov-15. Petrov said:

The All Timber Gliwice Radio Mast in Poland...Filed in my 'Favourites' in the 'Lest We Forget' folder. Still standing, with enough History to ensure in a thousand years it will still be there. God willing.

I rather like the idea of 'Wind Powered Cow Back-Scratchers' myself...... Now that would make them more contented......I have personally spilt more milk in one morning that any CR4 reader has ever drunk in his life.......So increased milk yield = more energy = The most efficient 'Windmill' ever..... I think it should have an entry in the Guinness Book of Records.....If it works?.....Ah! yes. the Lovely Lucinda Wallop, of 2AM Productions and Stink Films...Co-Producer of that Armageddon Film... The Lady I was courting, (and Sister to the keeper of the Isaac Newton Papers NOT in the Public Domain...for very good reason) up until my dear wife snatched me from her, by wicked stealth...very wicked.....But then again....RMPTA business......Getting to grips with the Narcotics Trade needed reliable Intelligence....blah, blah.....tales for this forum, that I appologise in advance if deemed unsuitable . but as ever things turn out well in the end. The long saga lead to meeting a young whippersnapper of an Student Artist at Camberwell Art College. This enthusiastic fellow exhibited a Time Machine Sculpture for his Degree Show. James Cecil Scott Moores. was this intrepid Sculptors name. "Could one actually be built?" he asked me in earnest..."I do not know for sure" was my response, "But if one ever is built, then in a paradoxical sort of way, it has been built allready"......"So I doubt it" I added.

Aha! those old flickering films of The Late Queen Victoria's Funeral. In a strange sort of way they are a 'kind of time machine'.... So I suppose if we had zillions of cameras constantly recording everything now, then a future generation could create a 'Virtual' Time Machine"............"It is 'Theoretically Feasible 'James " I said.

"Here are my contact details just ring this number and ask for any message to be sent to 'Telepathic Communicator' it will reach my pager." (1985) I had no idea of his wealth at the time. Moores is a common name.

So with £6.5 Billion Quid just inherited from Grand Pater Moores, Less Tax Deductions..... "I say James"....."Yes Alastair"....All that beastly Tax....."I could put forward a proposition on how to spend it, on your behalf, if you like?"

"Sure" said James, "GO AHEAD WITH MY BLESSINGS" Those in doubt, ask direct from James to get his version of the tale. Time has passed, but that's as near as I recollect.

Yea, I had a feeling you were going to say that after I hit the submit button. I should have been a little clearer with regard to the use of Sterling engines and their short-comings, specifically their use for producing large quantities of power, and being designed and used in improper (read impossible) ways (which boils down to trying to break numerous laws of thermodynamics by creating a free energy machine, Pranab is a good example). My knowledge in the area of Sterling engines and all the different variations is a little light (but I am aware of the Philip's one), I was referring to trying to get them to do impossible things (hence free energy device). Same with hydrogen electrolysis - sure it works and that cannot be disputed, but you cannot power a car on it (or in this case even get any sort efficiency out of it).

If people would just take a step back and have a proper look at the technology that they are intending to use (or make better) in a process before they undertake a project, a vast quantity of time and money would be saved (especially if numerous laws of the universe say it is impossible). If they still want to go ahead, fine (some laws can be bent after all), but at least they know what they are getting into, and the average backyard enthusiast can see that this is something they should steer clear of due to their lack of knowledge and experience. This is really primarily directed at free energy projects by backyard builders with no knowledge of the real wold (or electronics for that matter) who think they can do the impossible.

..............Sooooooooooo what I probably should have said before was something along the lines of "Can the Sterling cycle/engine be used in the way you intend. Be careful as many have tried and failed miserably trying to do things with the Sterling cycle that are impossible due to numerous laws of thermodynamics, etc". Oh yes, that's much better. (although I don't think I could have got all that out before I got to the end of the plank after being made to walk the plank).

The Dear Rear Admiral in question would challenge you to a game of squash, If you won, you would go free. Or if you lost you could choose to play another game 'Rackets' with a one inch steel ball bearing. great fun. win or lose you would go free. (hit the ball-bearing hard enough and you break the cat-gut strings...you can retire with honour)...

There may yet be a revival of the Stirling Engine.... We shall wait and see.... one of my assignments as an RMPTA was to escort a Lady to a Casino where she promptly lost several million quid.......That money was Oil Money and ensured that Good Engineering was ignored. The other assignment was to retire and commiserate with Bill Shevlin O.B.E. Head of Security at the London Hilton Hotel in Mayfair. just a stones throw from the Casino. Happy Days.... That is how I met my Lovely Wife. And Bill had a few Good Yarns to relate. If you topped his glass up.

Nice "Air"ial view...........

Waaaoouuhh.. Lot of juice out of those puppys I believe, Gosh that's huge project my friend, absolutly way to go ON. These also may be link it up to an stepping-up power increaser unit by the use of capacitances inverters transformers and so on to make it out even more powerful output out of them, I'll Bet... Waooouuhh..! Plenty of Juice big time then...

Awesone-Brilliant,

MC

These also may be link it up to an stepping-up power increaser unit by the use of capacitances inverters transformers and so on to make it out even more powerful output out of them

Not quite, remember you can step up voltage or current but not both togeather (and hence get more (free) power). There are cases that you can (such as by increasing your power factor or reducing harmonics), but not in the case of a wind farm turbine (which remember is nothing more than a big variable speed generator).

As an example my current wind farm project steps the individual wind turbines 2.5MVA at 690V up to 2.5MVA at 33kV using a transformer to reduce the transmission losses (and to save on copper we are using larger aluminium cable ). This one is going to be well over 3 times the size of the previous one I mentioned above.

I was reading on GlobalSpec, that Canada was reaching a 'Peak' for the 'Wind-Power' contribution to their National Grid. Looking about at storage systems, I note that good old NASA are engrossed in a 'Flywheel Battery' project. I do recall that in France some decades ago, the Paris Telephone Exchange employed a flywheel back-up system. It was astonishing how much power was stored in a very high rev flywheel buried deep underground in reinforced concrete, just in case it failed.

I just wonder what the practical limit is for power storage of this nature. Cost might be a big drawback? but where there is a will there is often a way.

Title:- "Rotary Oscillating Wind Generator"

First go out and buy a load of 'Shake Torches'.....just for experimental purposes, those would go inside the circular black plastic pipe, located at the mid-point of the mast rigging.(The 'Node-Point' of vibration)

I managed to purchase for only £2, a 'rolson' 20Lb Pen Style Magnetic Pick Up Tool with a very strong magnet 20mm diameter about 12 to 14mm length? (I tested it and it worked, but only on a very flat 20Lb weight) I guess a load of those might be a better buy, as one could easily make ones own 'shake-torch' generator, and 'THREE PHASE' at that!

The clever bit, I am sad to say, I have yet to determine, but I anticipate there may be quite a few alternative ways of inducing a suitable 'Oscillation' ......Some sort of weighted mechanism that altered a wind vane at the maximum point of the angular rotary oscilation...... Time to put that 'Thinking Cap' with the big 'D' It always seems to charge up the grey matter. 'It must be 'Delta-Pyramid' power?

This is from :- http://www.mindspring.com/~waltmur/Self-Steering/vane-3.jpg

A treatise on self steering mechanisms for small boats. it might all come down to careful tuning of natural resonant frequencies in the 'tensed' components of the rigging. usually engineers are trying to avoid vibrations and oscillations, but here we want to encourage them to most effect....at least cost. The objective would be to make the cone of rigging twist one way, and then reverse direction. regardless if the direction of the wind. Marine Plywood can be bent quite easily and if two or more thin sheets are sandwiched together, they will hold an aerofoil/whatever shape....taught rigging itself would have an element of 'spring-twist' in it. If one could encourage a sympathetic oscillation with a plurality of vanes attached to the rigging, it just might do the trick. This is definitely a job to test by 'suck it and see' methodology, with a scale model.

As I see this concept, it could be a low tech solution. one advantage I can see immediately is that 'Bird Conservationists' would be unlikely to object. and a second advantage, folk might not recognise it for a wind generator at all.

Sorry.....Correction......This is an 'Air Compressor'......not a wind-power electricity generator. one problem, the 'Town' might be twenty miles or more from the 99% felled forrest.....We would need a lot of that 'BIG BLUE PLASTIC PIPE'...rated at 10 bar.... Then again my alter-ego with the conical 'delta-hat'.....for some strange reason thinks an air-receiver will be needed, What!......how much volume is there in a mile of big blue plastic pipe? The pendulum vane reversal system seems at first analysis to be the ideal and cheapest solution......also compressed air would solve the storage problem....plus a bit of fabric stretched so as to act as 'spokes' and this baby is a 'Cow Shelter' as well. make that clear and it's also a round greenhouse...blah blah.