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Will This Work? Rough AC Welder/Weldernator.

03/25/2015 9:21 AM

Greetings.

For months now i have been struggling.Heres the details.

I have been trying to make a welding generator.My constraints.It needs to be light weight. I need to be able to use 4.5 mm or 5/32 " welding rods.The welding duty cycle is about 60%. I need a 3 phase alternator. has to be portable.

Heres what ive figured so far.( I could be so wrong)

1) i am using a 45 amp 12 v car alternator for testing.eventually, i intend to use a 24v,90 Amps,piece. will be coupled to a automatic transmission scooter engine.

2) Ive removed the voltage regulator, rectifier bridge and and other dc connections and i am using the three leads( no neutral) from the alternator for the source.I intend to supply field (regulated) sepatately.So right now, iam not discussing about the field current management/regulation.

3) I have 3 large 9''(od) 5" (id) 3.5" toroidal cores. I intend to connect these to make a 3 phase transformer bank and wind these in delta connection to output about 400 amps at 40-50 volts. Is this feasible with the larger alternator.

Right now friends, i feel like 'penny wise ........'. But, if you'll bear with me and help me along .any input will be appreciated.I need to complete this. Thanks in advance

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#1

Re: Will this work? Rough AC Welder/Weldernator.

03/25/2015 11:01 AM

For what I think is your alternator a bit on the light side 45 Amps per Phase?

A 4.5mm rod (steel) needs 100 Amps plus.

I guess, it will be difficult to get a good tack voltage (open voltage) to start welding. My Miller lets me know once in a while that it supplies 30 volts plus.

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#2

Re: Will this work? Rough AC Welder/Weldernator.

03/25/2015 11:05 AM

OK, roughly multiply 24V by 90A and that's the max power you will get from whatever transformer you use, if you need 400Amps, your voltage will be around 5.4Volts, consider the primary to secondary turns ratio, but most important the transformer KVA rating.

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#6
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Re: Will this work? Rough AC Welder/Weldernator.

03/25/2015 12:04 PM

times 1.7 ? (3 Phase)

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#9
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Re: Will this work? Rough AC Welder/Weldernator.

03/25/2015 4:33 PM

Sorry, you're right. My mistake, but still he won't get more than the alternator's rated watts.

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#3

Re: Will this work? Rough AC Welder/Weldernator.

03/25/2015 11:17 AM

So, help me understand, your final output is planned as three phase? How do you in envision connection of these phases to the rod/workpiece?

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#4
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Re: Will this work? Rough AC Welder/Weldernator.

03/25/2015 11:31 AM

Easiest way will be to rectify the phases again and work without transformer. Or he can use a 3 phase to single transformer.

His power, however will be too limited I guess. There are 120 Amps, 3 Phase alternators in some buses with AC.

I know professional skippers that weld straight from their batteries on board.

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#10
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Re: Will this work? Rough AC Welder/Weldernator.

03/25/2015 9:17 PM

Rectifying could work, just as batteries can work. It's just that the initial description notes doing away with rectification.

Trying to stick weld with 3 phase would be pretty tricky. Even if he gets to single phase the arc will extinguish as the voltage passes through zero at frequencies I'd expect from the setup described , unless something is done to maintain it, like adding a high frequency component.

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#11
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Re: Will this work? Rough AC Welder/Weldernator.

03/25/2015 9:49 PM

Once he goes through a 3ph/ single phase transformer, he is working between 2000 Hz and 3000 Hz, considered the tops. You will also notice that there will be no resulting zero crossings. This technique is used by Lastec, Cloos and others in Europe.

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#12
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Re: Will this work? Rough AC Welder/Weldernator.

03/26/2015 2:39 AM

Hmmmm, a single phase at 2 to 3 kHz with no zero crossing? Certainly sounds like something other than just a special transformer is used.....something a lot like rectifying enough to provide sufficient DC bias to keep it always the same polarity. AC is going to cross zero.

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#14
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Re: Will this work? Rough AC Welder/Weldernator.

03/26/2015 9:40 AM

Considered not rectifying (at the end), the zero crossing, Yes.

But a DC welder runs a lot smoother.

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#5

Re: Will this work? Rough AC Welder/Weldernator.

03/25/2015 11:37 AM

You can safely forget all about that 3 phase transformer thing. The requirements of a power source suitable for stick or TIG welding is just an implementation of a constant current source, and that can only be done by smart field current management with the addition of enough inductance in the rectified (welding) output, in order to minimize the necessary complexity level of that field current control circuit. Now the coils of a 90A alternator unmodified are capable of more than 200A with your duty cycle, providing the RPM is kept at a normal range for a car alternator, no less than 15000 RPM that is. But the OEM rectifiers are totally unsuitable for your application, not only for their low current but also their low breakdown voltage, usually they will avalanche at no more than 3 times the alternator rated voltage. Too low. And remember, mainstream silicon diodes are NOT fast enough for that application, at that speed a common alternator outputs about 750 HZ, you need to replace them with high current, high voltage Schottky's or ultrafast high current silicon diodes (with much higher losses) All that can be easily implemented, the difficulty is that system voltage while welding drops too low for proper alternator field powering, so you must also use some kind of power storage, BIG capacitors or better a battery for that dead time. If all this doesn't discourage you, by all means, go on. S.M.

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#7

Re: Will this work? Rough AC Welder/Weldernator.

03/25/2015 2:57 PM

Why don't you just try this. There's lots more on Google.

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#8

Re: Will this work? Rough AC Welder/Weldernator.

03/25/2015 4:23 PM

Given your wants Vs your available parts there is no way you will make a 400 amp stick welder out of what you have to work with.

Here are some things you need to consider for making a basic but workable quality welding rig out of junk parts.

1:Constant current stick welding needs to have an open circuit voltage of around 50 - 80 volts with a struck arc voltage of around 20 - 30 volts.

2: Unless its for the learning experience for what it costs in time and money to build a functional welding rig you would be better off working manual labor for a while and using the money from that to buy a good used or damaged welder and repairing it.

Now that said you can do basic DC stick welding directly off of a common alternator by feeding the rotor with a constant current and running the output through a good sized inductor to stabilize the arc.

Its not fancy but it does work fairly well provided you have a large enough alternator and engine to power it which is where you have to do the math to find out what you will be working with.

TO get a rough idea of what you need multiply your struck arc voltage times your working amps and multiply that by around 1.25 to get your required power source capacity. In your case 30 volts at 400 amps would require around 15,000 watts (~20 horsepower) of engine power and a 12,000 watt alternator. Your scooter engine is maybe 2 - 3 KW and your 24 volt 90 amp alternator is good for about the same so you already have a problem.

As far as alternators and engines go what you pay for is what you get. Cheap low end automotive alternators don't take well to be made into welders but the larger commercial units typically have very little problems with it. Same with small light weight low power high speed engines. Most don't take well to being used as extended duty and load stationary power sources.

But honestly when its all said and done unless this is mainly for the learning experience you would be better off putting your invested time into working to buy a proper welding rig or at at least finding a damaged one that is repairable.

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#13

Re: Will this work? Rough AC Welder/Weldernator.

03/26/2015 5:15 AM

My arc welder works fine from a 2kW petrol generator that cost me £170, maybe less if you can find a used one. How much are you going to spend building your own version?

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#15
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Re: Will this work? Rough AC Welder/Weldernator.

03/26/2015 9:46 AM

I share the opinion of other posters here, that besides the kick to keep yourself busy building one, all other options seem more considerable.

For real lightweight I would opt for a generator and a welding inverter. Some are less than 2 pounds.

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#16

Re: Will This Work? Rough AC Welder/Weldernator.

03/26/2015 9:48 AM

Not possible. The 24V x 90Amp cannot provide the amperage/power required to do what you are attempting to do at.

Power In = Power Out

If you increase the output voltage to 40-50 volts the current maximum value will be a ratio of 24/40 or 24/50 x 90 amps.

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