Test the "Biotic Pump" Theory (Rainforests Draw in Moisture from the Sea)

One word for you to consider... paragraphs!

Um... What?

I see paragraphs in his post? Do you not?

"But in the cloudy skies, convection through the cloud is the main mover of energy and this convection through the cloud creates air movement not heat."

Yes. Convection moves heat. It does not create it.

"Anyway, any ideas on how to prove if clouds are creating high pressure or low pressure?"

Yes, use a barometer.

Not sure what you are trying to prove.

Hi, Lynn, meteorologists have barometers but they have been arguing about whether clouds make high pressure or low pressure for 9 years. So, I would guess that things change so dynamically that they have not figured out how best to measure this. PLUS This is a dogma issue, lots of peoThe people behind the biotic pump theory think raining clouds create low pressure. Lots of meteoroligists think rain from clouds create high pressure. And peer review of the biotic pump theory was refused for an unacceptably long period. Seems there is a clique running the climate science show and much as I agree that global warming is taking place, I would prefer that our actions to fight it are based on real science not dogma. Straight away, the high pressure low pressure question doesn't seem to have an easy answer. But the answer is really important. Climate scientists tweak their models by putting in extra mathematical formula and corrections to make the models fit with what actually happens. But that is like co-relation is not causation except now you are designing a formula to co-relate with what happens instead of modeling what happens. It would be far better if they actually tried to figure out little problems like this one. From scratch. Because that ends up helping to make models that are based on reality. I meant that convection through clouds causes stronger air currents (instead of just moving heat up). In dry air conditions, convection does not work as well as in high humidity conditions partly because those 2 phase transitions do not take place and Partly because the clear skies at night allow radiation of energy to take place and partly because water vapor released from trees is light and cool, and then when it condenses up in the sky, the heat gets released in a way that enhances the flow. This does not happen with dry air. With this 2 phase flow, up and down are far better defined than when dry air expands and contracts. I think dry air gets warm, it expands in all directions much more equally while when water vapor condenses, the cloud confines far more of the movement to the vertical axis. And the vertical movement is a vital part of what drives the winds. I have a bunch of links that go into more detail on more aspects of this case. It is very clear from reading this that lots of people in the field do not have a firm grasp of what is going on and with climate stuff, that is really scary.

Here is one on the whole peer review problem for one of the papers. (By a former Editor of the BMJ). http://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2013/01/28/richard-smith-the-editor-thinks-your-paper-is-nonsense-but-will-publish-anyway/

Here is a link to how the theory might help with explaining hurricanes https://noconsensus.wordpress.com/2010/02/02/the-power-behind-hurricanes-and-tornadoes/

"been arguing about whether clouds make high pressure or low pressure for 9 years".

I always thought low pressure made clouds if sufficient moisture was in the air.

But then I lick my finger and hold it up to determine wind direction too.

Thanks, Lyn, but when precipitation happens, what is the end result? Is there low pressure left over or has high pressure been made. I know there is a downdraft at that time so there will be some high pressure measured at the surface, but heat has also been released above the cloud and air has been dried by passing up through the cloud so presumably air has gone skywards too. The question is what is the overall result? High or low pressure? For the moment, lets just consider cumulus clouds in brazilian rain forest where the forest actively releases compounds that develop into cloud seeds and increase rainfall. But it "seems" European forests do the same thing in the growing season. Water travels a hell of a long way inland in the growing season. Why? Following is a gif that shows rainfall per month from the Atlantic across to Russia. In desert areas, it seems that this "pump" is stopped at the coast by the fronts made by the sea breeze land breeze daily cycle. So even though they get more heat on average, the moisture convey does not happen. http://www.bioticregulation.ru/common/pdf/taac/taac-fig5.gif

I have found a link that might be of interest. The Russian Nuclear Physicists got a really frosty welcome to their paper and several people wanted to reject it just because it was different and ran counter to ideas that have held sway for a hundred years. Some of the writing would seem to show that the physics ( condensation causes low pressure) HAS been worked out. But it has not yet been ACCEPTED by the weather and climate modeling community or put into any of their models! Seems if they get co-relation in their models, they are happy, regardless of the correctnesss of the physics. This is why outside intervention from engineers is needed to wake them up. Reality based climate models IS important. https://tallbloke.wordpress.com/2013/01/27/anastassia-makarieva-science-one-bar-for-all/

This link is about open cell clouds and closed cell clouds. Lots of simple clear pictures in the link too. It seems that in all cases, the cloudy air is rising and the clear air is high pressure and falling back down. My personal view is that the falling drops in clouds is doing about 3 things. warming the air as it falls through it, drying the air that passes through the cloud and making a low pressure zone pump air up into the sky. If you don't have open and closed cells, where does the air go? All the way up, and then it becomes part of a hadley cell and drops down hundreds of km away. So this evidence seems to make clouds into a producer of low pressure. And this starts the moment the condensation happens. I think the clouds should rightly be viewed as areas of 2 phase fluid flow. http://www.knmi.nl/bibliotheek/stageverslagen/stageverslag_Noteboom.pdf

Put on your Einstein thinking hats for a moment and VISUALIZE! So, there are a fleet of hydrogen filled airships, (like the Hindenberg) Thousands of them. Carpeting the sky. (like in a big si-fi movie. They are light and their floating height is 10,000 ft. But they want to fly at 5000 ft. So what to do? They are solar powered. In this case their engines are on the sides and they can rotate to face forward back or up or down.) They face their propellers straight down and gently start the engines. Just the right speed will take them down to 1000 ft and when they get there they slow the engines and stay at that height. NOW. They are all at 5000 ft. They are making a wind happen, right? Straight up, right? This will suck in air from beyond the airship carpet. Right? Well, that is how cumulus clouds work too. Above the Amazon rainforest. Except the propeller is 2 phase fluid flow INSIDE the (heavier than air) cloud. You cannot see it. What do you think of that explanation?

I put in 1000 ft in one place by mistake. Should be 5000 ft there. Sorry about that.