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Elon Is Bummed

08/25/2015 7:30 PM

what?? Calif taxpayers wont be footing part of the bill for rich folks? someone actually woke up?http://news.yahoo.com/california-pulls-plug-electric-car-subsidies-rich-175147859.html

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#1

Re: Elon is bummed

08/25/2015 8:24 PM

"Critics have long bashed the program for giving the rich cash so they can buy six-figure luxury electric supercars like the Tesla Motors Model S, leaving less money for low-income and middle-class drivers."

So the rich are stealing from the poor?

Exactly how does rich people buying six-future luxury electric supercars leave low-income and middle class drivers with less money?

Ah!!!

Tax subsidies! Of course. Yet no one wants to show the math that shows that those subsidies that go to offset the cost for six-future luxury electric supercars purchased by the rich would only amount to a few pennies per middle class tax payer, but we wouldn't want one class of people getting the same discounts another class of people would get. That would be, um... un-American.

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: Elon is bummed

08/25/2015 8:49 PM

There's always a way to make any distribution appear to be inequitable. Give everyone the same amount and the percentages look off. Get the percentages right and the total amounts look off. Remember figures don't lie, but liars figure.

IMHO If it is true that over 99% of the wealth in this country is owned by only 1% of the population then that 1% of the population should expect to pay more than 50% of the taxes.

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#3
In reply to #2

Re: Elon is bummed

08/25/2015 9:01 PM

Sounds like a flat tax.

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#4
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Re: Elon is bummed

08/26/2015 7:47 AM

Even if we accept your IMHO premise, the point that I am trying to make is that the article takes a swipe at the rich in such a trite way by creating the illusion that the middle class and lower income population are taking significant losses due to the fact that the subsidies apply to all people and not simply only to a select group of the population (i.e., lower income and middle class).

This is obviously not true, at least in the case cited as the total number of vehicles sold and the amount of subsidies payed out is a drop in the taxpayer ocean.

So why raise the alarm? What's more, why cite an example that is not representative of the alleged problem (or at least why such a faulty example)?

I think I have an humble opinion to those answers myself and it follows along the same biased questions that are asked as to why our police forces are deliberately shooting more of one ethnic group than another.

Personally, it disturbs me much less that a small percentage of the population "owns" the majority of the wealth of this nation than it would if I didn't have an equal opportunity of obtaining wealth.

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#5
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Re: Elon is bummed

08/26/2015 7:53 AM

kinda interesting,....... after this country was established, there have always extremely rich people in this country..... so rich that they even the US government would depend on them......... for a price.

On February 20, 1895, J.P. Morgan & Co. led a bond offering that helped rescue the United States from a severe two-year economic depression.

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#6
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Re: Elon is bummed

08/26/2015 8:02 AM

If you think high-income earners weren't applying for incentives, stats compiled by the Center for Sustainable Energy say otherwise. Survey data from the second quarter of 2015 indicates over 26% of recipients had an income over $200,000. That's nearly equal to the 27% of those earning less than $99,000. Interestingly, nearly three quarters of rebates so far this year went to those with incomes over $99,000.so is 100K/year "rich" not in my book but if they want a Tesla which I think is the coolest car going I think its fine but taxpayers don't need to kick in $$$ to complete another sale for Elon

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#7
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Re: Elon is bummed

08/26/2015 8:08 AM

nope wouldn't even think of it......

all endeavors they took, is for a profit.

One could say the JP Morgan had a monopoly,...... of money.

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#8
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Re: Elon is bummed

08/26/2015 9:27 AM

First, as a general rule, people that earn high incomes generally are detail oriented and do not play the game hap-hazzardly. That is, they use all the resources to their advantage, which include incentives. Would it not be foolish to do otherwise?

Second, incentives, particularly for adopting new technologies like EVs, are not designed to line the pockets of the poor and middle class.

This fallacy infuriates me because it is another case of hijacking something to be used as a social cause, such as class warfare, ignoring the real reasons they were instantiated to begin with.

Let's step back and try to understand the meaning and reasons for these tax incentives.

The reason the government provides tax breaks for new technologies like EVs and solar are to attempt to level the playing field for emergent technologies by offsetting some of the non-recurring startup costs and costs incurred due to low production volumes.

This is a form of kickstarting a new technology so that all of society can reap the benefits that it is deemed to provide.

Lastly, the fallacy with the original article, as written, is that breaks given to rich people for very expensive EV technology somehow degrades the ability of middle class and lower income earners from buying EV technology. This is totally false. The incentives are not a zero-sum game. As long as there are EVs produced and the incentive is in place you are free to buy these.

What's worse, by restricting who gets incentives you reduce the effectiveness of the end goal - to spur new technology into the mainstream.

The fact that a portion of new technology or even the lion's share of new technology is purchased by upper-income earners is unimportant to the end game. We have plenty of examples of this historically. Cell or mobile phones were once the toys of only the rich. Your widescreen LED TV was once the toy of the rich.

We have come full-circle back to the idea of who takes advantages of incentives. Savvy buyers will leverage the opportunities about them. This is how they get ahead in their economic life, regardless of their economic class.

Denying incentives based on class-warfare is simply cutting one's nose off to spite their face. Without incentives the number of adopters for costly emergent technologies will drop and in the long run delay or even stop the introduction into the mainstream. Remember, Elon's business plan was the right way to introduce EVs to the masses. You start by building a specialty car for the upper income buyers, use that to develop and perfect that technology, lower its cost, then build something for the masses.

This is why Ford, GM, and others have failed. They wanted to first build the VW of EVs and landed face first in the dirt every time - deservedly so, too.

The problem with class warfare is that it is a draconian way of beating down the achievers to level the playing field instead of empowering those that want to be achievers.

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#9
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Re: Elon is bummed

08/26/2015 9:52 AM

well put on a number of points.

It seems people love to share the benefits of the rich. But they would never consider to take the risk.

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#10
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Re: Elon is bummed

08/26/2015 10:03 AM

Regardless of how detail oriented one might be the taxpayer shouldn't be picking up the tab for someone else's Nappa leather optional seats

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#11
In reply to #10

Re: Elon is bummed

08/26/2015 10:11 AM

That a wide paint brush your using. How about high speed rail CA is building with taxpayer funds... for the common man.

Yet for new technology....

With the cost to get new technology on the market..... without incentives. The alternative are...

Hope you'll be satisfied with this.....

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#12
In reply to #11

Re: Elon is bummed

08/26/2015 10:30 AM

I admit it, I'm having a bit of fun on this thread. I'm a huge fan of Musk. if he puts the Gigafactory+ the Model3 together in a package around the current price of an ICE I think we all win. and yes it takes a lot of money to spark a shift this enormous. so government can have a role in helping a billionaire to realize a dream if it provides jobs and promotes an environmental agenda that the public is currently in support of.

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