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Diesel Additive for Antifreeze

10/19/2015 3:10 PM

When working with ultrasonic cleaners,the least bit of foaming detergent will kill the cleaning action.

The foaming agent prevents the bubble from cavitating.

Cavitation occurs in diesel engines due to extreme compression,and the vibrations created in the cylinders by the combustion process,causing erosion of the cylinder liners on the coolant side.

So the question is:Are the additives in the diesel anti-freeze additive package simply a foaming agent,to prevent cavitation,or is there a lot more to it than that?

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#1

Re: Diesel additive for antifreeze

10/19/2015 3:23 PM
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#3
In reply to #1

Re: Diesel additive for antifreeze

10/19/2015 4:26 PM

Those links refer to Diesel Fuel additives,not anti freeze.

but thanks for the effort.

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#2

Re: Diesel additive for antifreeze

10/19/2015 4:00 PM

Cummins claims the additive for pitting protection coats the cylinder wall and the implosions take place on that coating protecting the cylinder wall...but these formulas are proprietary so who knows...

  • DCA2:Standard Corrosion Protection Using Borate/Nitrite Based Inhibitor Package
  • DCA4:Superior Liner Pitting, Scale & Corrosion Protection Using Phosphate/Molybdate Based Inhibitor Package

https://www.cumminsfiltration.com/pdfs/product_lit/americas_brochures/LT15108.pdf
https://www.cumminsfiltration.com/html/en/products/cooling/coolant/supp_add.html

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#4
In reply to #2

Re: Diesel additive for antifreeze

10/19/2015 4:39 PM

Presuming that all high grade antifreezes have the same corrosion package,and the additives for diesel simply prevent cavitation,a single drop of dish detergent should do the same thing(prevent cavitation) when added to regular antifreeze.

I know a single drop will stop a 2 gallon ultrasonic cleaner from working properly,it kills the cavitation.

You can even hear a change in pitch when it is added.

Instructions with the parts cleaner say to use Sparkleen or a non foaming detergent.

Any chemical experts care to comment ?

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#8
In reply to #4

Re: Diesel additive for antifreeze

10/19/2015 8:07 PM

I have an ultrasonic cleaner for jewelry and small stuff that works best with hot water and liquid soap...I've tried it with several different combinations and cleaners, but that works best for general cleaning....

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#9
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Re: Diesel additive for antifreeze

10/19/2015 9:33 PM

Try it with plain water,and a Very Small amount of Dishwasher Detergent,(not regular dish detergent).

From my experience, most cleaning in the large industrial cleaners,plain distilled water worked best.

In a few hours,it would get to 150F,and this was strictly from the cavitation,no external heaters or other heating elements.

It would even de-chrome plated metal if left in too long.

A drop of liquid dish detergent would kill the ultrasonic power,however,a pinch of Dishwasher Powder enhanced the cleaning effect.

Just speaking from my experience.

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#11
In reply to #9

Re: Diesel additive for antifreeze

10/20/2015 12:01 AM

Well yes I have noticed it heats up very hot, but it's the same with the liquid soap.... I probably use too much soap...

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#5

Re: Diesel Additive for Antifreeze

10/19/2015 4:49 PM

My understanding of the problem is that at very cold temperatures - at below what they term the "cloud point" of the fuel - the wax additives dissociate from the fuel and cause blocking of filters etc. Lowering the cloud point is the most effective means of making diesel more low temperature friendly.

The additives (normally called "cold flow improvers") lower the temperature at which the wax crystallises, but does not lower the cloud point which can normally only be lowered by the addition of heating oil or similar which has a lower wax content

The additives also lower the "pour point" - the temperature at which the diesel will freeze.

Adding detergents to diesel can cause greater filter problems as they can strip rust and scale from the tank.

Our Australian Bass strait crude is particularly prone to wax drop out, but thankfully there are few places here where it gets sufficiently cold for that to occur.

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#6
In reply to #5

Re: Diesel Additive for Antifreeze

10/19/2015 6:46 PM

My question is not how to prevent diesel fuel from freezing,it is about the Antifreeze Coolant that circulates through out the engine and the radiator, to keep it cool.

This is the 2nd reply about diesel fuel instead of antifreeze.

I can see how it may have been misunderstood.

It is a poorly posed question on my part.

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#7
In reply to #6

Re: Diesel Additive for Antifreeze

10/19/2015 7:49 PM

I agree...It was poorly worded.

Most cooling system anti freezes consist of a high percentage of Ethylene Glycol to lower the freezing point and, in the case of diesel engine additives, a percentage of nitrite (nominally 800 ppm per coolant fill). The nitrite ion reacts with the ferrous oxide (Fe2O3) that forms on the coolant side of wet liners to form Fe3O5 which is extremely tough and prevents bubble attack caused by cavitation.

Nitrite has the unfortunate ability to corrode solder and damage O rings if the concentration is too high, so most modern formulations reduce the nitrite and add Molybdate as a replacement.

I am not aware that any foaming occurs.

There are filter packs available that fit to the coolant plumbing and dose the coolant with nitrite.

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#10
In reply to #7

Re: Diesel Additive for Antifreeze

10/19/2015 9:37 PM

Thanks!

Good info.

This seems to concur with the info given on the links from Solar Eagle.

I was wondering if the claim of a protective coating was honest,or just hype.

The claim appears to be valid.

It would also seem to me that preventing the cavitation bubbles would be of a great benefit.

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#12

Re: Diesel Additive for Antifreeze

10/20/2015 8:46 AM

Deionized water works very well alone as a cleaner. It will even remove the copper tubing the maintenance crew installed to bring the DI water to the sink.

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#13

Re: Diesel Additive for Antifreeze

10/20/2015 3:23 PM

I'll pass on a few things I had to learn when my wife and I drove over the road for 7 years, in a tractor-trailer for FedEx:

First, the combustion chamber pressure has nothing to do with the cavitation in the coolant you are referring to. If you have combustion chamber pressure working in the coolant....you have BIG problems!!! There should never be any pressure from the cylinders acting on the coolant pressure!

Second, there is ONLY ONE circumstance that causes bubbling, or "cavitation" in the engine coolant system: Air pockets in the engine block, usually high up around the top of the cast iron cylinder sleeve. This air pocket allows boiling to occur, that in turn causes pitting on the coolant side of the cylinder sleeve.

Some diesel engines do not require NOAT additives in the coolant mixture, some do. What is the difference?

This I learned the hard way. Diesel engines are tall, due to the stroke that develops the required combustion pressures, and so the fuel/air combustion temperature required to ignite the mixture at piston TopDeadCenter. This engine vertical height can lead to air pockets around the cylinder sleeves, at the top of the engine. Some engines will have a coolant crossover pipe, that is higher than the cylinder heads, and so prevents a void, or air pocket. All air in the coolant system travels into the crossover pipe and can be bled out by unscrewing a fitting. Many trucks do not have the physical space required for this crossover pipe, so additives are necessary to prevent damage from boiling due to air trapped in the engine block. Knowing which type of engine one has, then, is critical. That is the part I learned the hard way.

Check your engine for a coolant pipe that is higher than the cylinder heads, and check the pipe for a bleed fitting. If you have both, you don't need additives in your coolant. If you don't have both, you need coolant additives.

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#14
In reply to #13

Re: Diesel Additive for Antifreeze

10/20/2015 7:11 PM
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#15

Re: Diesel Additive for Antifreeze

10/21/2015 1:16 AM

You must have good times hitekrednek.

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#16

Re: Diesel Additive for Antifreeze

10/21/2015 12:58 PM

I learned a long time ago to be wary of product literature, when the authors are trying to sell you something. If you'd like, I can show you how Mobil Delvac is the only diesel engine oil one should ever use!! Just ask them! It's right there in their literature! But you can read the same in Shell Rotella's literature also!

Exactly what is a "high speed" diesel? A buzz word to sell you something. Should have clued you in that something was about to be sold here..... Diesels, even the latest, are designed to run optimally at 1500-1600 rpm for over the road use. Not exactly "high speed". A whopping increase to 2000 rpm is not much of a change, but is used at gear changes....not to drive over the road.

Yes, I have read this before. I can tell you from the experts at Cummins (two Cummins motor rebuilds under my belt, as well as 1 International and 1 Detroit Diesel) that the problems listed here by Fleetguard are avoidable. The coolant additives are an insurance. Problems listed here are two-fold. (Kind of like adding radiator stop leak into your coolant--for good measure)

1. "The pistons strike the liners." No, they don't. The piston rings contact the liner. If the pistons strike the liners, you have some serious problems that coolant additives can't fix. And a VERY POOR engine design.

2. "Incorrect plumbing" and "air leaks" are also mentioned in the sales literature that is linked. These two problems, as I stated, are the number one problems causing pitting on liners.

In my discussions with engine techs and factory techs/engineers over the years, they all mentioned several key factors. One is proper installation of the liners into the engine block. Another is proper engine design to secure the liners. Cummins has spent great amounts of time/money to prevent problems with liners.

Different diesel engines have different sounds when running; most drivers know a Cat engine from a Detroit from a Cummins from an International. The sound results from how the engine block is designed and liners (sleeves) secured. (Valving too)

Why would you consult sales literature for "the" answer to a problem? That usually leads to much disappointment.....

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