The Asbestos of the Future?

Have they ever determined the mechanism whereby asbestos caused cancer? Was it fine needles punching holes or was it mediated by reactions at the large surface area of asbestos.?

This article discusses it

If so, then the fine nanotubes might be a problem, it certainly needs testing.

Generally speaking, mesothelioma presents itself in people who were exposed to asbestos and smoked. I had an uncle whose shipyard job before, during, and after WWII was to spray asbestos insulation in ships under construction. He did not smoke and lived to over 90 years old with no evidence of any lung disease. However, regardless of one's smoking history, it's not a good idea to contaminate your lungs with anything other than oxygen, nitrogen, and other trace gases. Most people are familiar with black lung disease for coal miners, but more recently people who do woodworking are at risk for lung diseases due to the ultra-fine saw dusts that can be generated. We are also understanding more about silicosis from dusts and so on.

Yes, silicosis, I am familiar with that and how they used to make the workers breath powdered aluminium dust after each shift. This helped for a ciliatable material in the lungs, but they finally outlawed all dusts and mandated fine enuugh filters.

"You just finished a shift breathing a hazardous dust, here, breathe this other hazardous dust, it'll counteract the first one."

Am I the only one wondering why anyone would pass that off as a 'good idea'? That's so insane it could drive me to drink:

What, the forum won't support simple animated GIF's, the oldest and most widely accepted form of animated image on the net?

Fine, here's the link to the image:

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https://38.media.tumblr.com/321e37b1c3c5e97593c892f05163956e/tumblr_mya23zn8A41rmmu6jo1_400.gif&imgrefurl=https://www.tumblr.com/tagged/CONFOUND-THOSE-DOVER-BOYS&h=240&w=320&tbnid=V3SwIXIrMICk_M:&docid=wHmkGrsuiT9XcM&hl=en&ei=40gqVuSIGZa8jwOvspPQCw&tbm=isch&ved=0CB0QMygAMABqFQoTCKSGwLXr2MgCFRbeYwodL9kEug

So then, instead of dying of silicosis, these workers all died of pancreatic cancer, and/or Parkinson's disease? What a bunch of rubbish this was!

A close friend of mine, in England, died last year of mesothelioma. He never smoked, but was involved early in life with Historical Renovations of State buildings and the like, as well as being a first class stone mason. We sat about before his passing trying to isolate the source of his affliction, and thought either the older buildings may have contained asbestos, or, that some of the stone that he cut and set may have had naturally occurring asbestos in it. Know of others worked as brake and automotive technicians, containing lots of asbestos, and nary a problem. That was the reason Raybestos (notice the name), as well as other companies were involved in many expensive lawsuits, and were often forced out of business.. A nasty disease, whatever the cause..

I have an unanswerable question about my aunts and uncles in the same family. Some died young( in their 60s, some including my father reaching into their 90s) who most smoked all their lives. Most of the younger relatives died from some form of cancer......?!

Yes, you do.

Have an unanswerable statement, that is.

Genetics, environment, other life styles and many other variables enter into the equation.

Life is a crap shoot, and the only thing guaranteed is that we all will die sometime.

It's the rate that varies.

Smoking certainly steps up the risk of succumbing by a factor of about 40 (so I heard).

Basically, every particulate known to mankind can cause a form of lung disease. Too bad we were not born with better air filters (maybe deciduous ones), but then there would not be very good opera.

Welcome to the future....

http://www.ecouterre.com/odd-looking-breathing-necklace-filters-co2-stores-it-as-energy-video/

I might add that asbestos is a naturally occurring mineral and one need not be in close proximity to a known source to get a lethal dose...

https://libbyasbestos.org/libby/nation.cfm

http://www.mymeso.org/tags/niosh/

http://www.braytonlaw.com/blog/2014/03/naturally-occurring-asbestos-in-the-united-states-infographic.shtml

Well, I'm betting my life on it. I've been incidentally exposed to asbestos from old oil furnaces, brake/clutch linings, and Zonolite vermiculite insulation. None of the exposure was occupational, hence the exposure was limited. Fortunately, I have never smoked. Chest x-ray's have been clear up to this point.

I am glad its not graphene. Perhaps Fredski too. ;)

My guess is that these are from research materials being disposed of by incineration...

http://www.letsrecycle.com/news/latest-news/largest-french-waste-incinerator-unveiled-in-paris/

Let's hope not.

If that's the case €580 million was wasted. Why not just use burn barrels?

I often jokingly say that glitter (of the type found on greeting/birthday cards etc.) is the new asbestos - it seems to go everywhere! I'm assuming that we injest/inhale the stuff involuntarily - time will tell what effect it has (if any).

Will the unloved eventually inherit the earth?

Students of aerosol science will appreciate the similarities of aerodynamics of the asbestos fibre particles compared to carbon fibre particles, and students of medical science will appreciate the physiological effect these materials have on the fabric of the lungs.

Speaking as an engineer with only a nodding acquaintance of both subjects, from a medical point of view I think the the body's defence mechanism is able to safely absorb and dispose of small amounts of foreign bodies without significant harm. It is only when the mass of these particles in the lungs reach a certain level that harm is caused.

Aerodynamically it is quite difficult for particles large enough to cause harm can reach the active areas of the lungs - the alveoli - larger ones are caught before getting into the lungs and coughed out or spat out, the smaller ones get breathed out.

The risk comes from large amounts of submicron particles heavy enough to eventually reach the alveoli, usually being small enough to get absorbed and carried away by the blood, where they get lodged in various body organs where, if overloaded, they then cause damage.

But again, the body's defence mechanism regenerates itself fast enough to cope with small amounts.

But back in the lungs, a particle of fibre that has got into the alveoli, is too large to be absorbed at one end, and being a fibre is wedged across the alveoli where both ends are being 'pulled' but to little effect. So the fibre stays where it is. Meanwhile, the point of contact of the fibre aggravates the site that in turn 'ossifies' (it is what I call for the purpose of explanation) to the point where it ceases to function as a gas exchange device.

The reason why fibres are a serious problem is to do with their shape, and since most aerosol science equates all particles to an equivalent aerodynamic diameter (with a settling velocity) it might be easy for an engineer to see how fibres might defy basic theory.

You could say a fibre has two aerodynamic diameters. One is the actual diameter across the fibre, and the other is the diameter related to the length. The fibre is in effect an arrow - except it does not have a sharp tip or flight feathers and it's path through the air is anything but streamlined. I turns and tumbles.

Just by sheer weight of numbers, law of averages, some fibres just happen to follow the trajectory of an arrow and will have enough momentum to overcome air resistance to reach the alveoli, where they get wedged. Other fibres going 'sideways' will have high drag and will not get far. Perhaps not even past the nose hairs.

To my mind, any arrow shaped fibre particle will cause problems. Whether it is made worse due to further 'chemical' reaction when in the alveoli, I can't say.

Is the 'damage' to the alveoli known to be caused by asbestos likely to be any different from that caused by carbon (or any other solid material). In the latter respect, does the alveoli treat carbon, as a solid material but at molecular level, in any way that resembles or interferes with the gas exchange.

I think that would be an answer to the OP.

So was this before or after these Paris children were caught rolling their own and smoking them? I just had to ask....

Really could be a serious problem. Anything that likes to make a long rigid fiber could produce something like Asbestosis.

You can get this publication from NIOSH: CIB 65 Free: The electron microscope image is a nanotube in lung tissue

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/2013-145/

So where can we get our very own nanotube kit to send to our "favorite" a-hole in government? And does it come with a decoder ring? We used to worry about "real" diseases of the lung: black lung was one. It came about from people actually working for a living.

We can't have that any more, it might drown a polar bear. Frankly, I feel that society has sown the wind, and can happily twist and spin in the whirlwind that will soon erupt, due to a completely betrayed, uneducated, and unemployed generation about to take over. It won't come from old farts like me. It will be the result of 50 years of "The Great Society" type thinking that has placed us all in great peril.

"So where can we get our very own nanotube kit to send to our "favorite" a-hole in government?"

Let's do it the easy way, have a ballot with every member of Government in DC listed, with the voting choices limited to 'live' and 'die.' Anyone who gets more 'live' than 'die' is spared. And make it a national ballot, after all, a person's 'most hated congressman' may not be from their own state.

After the ballots are counted ... well, you need an approval rating of at least 50% to be saved, so we'll just nuke DC and safe everyone the trouble of killing the idiots one by one.

While that is certainly an idea, I cannot vouch for the worth or validity of such a concept. It sort of reminds me of the movie called "The Purge".

Reality might have to be suspended for a number of hours for such an idea to be allowed.

I suppose this why we have elections to make these choices.

"I suppose this why we have elections to make these choices."

Yes, but out of the 535 idiots sent to Capitol Hill, I can only choose 3, leaving the other 532 to run around like morons and screw things up without me having any say in all about them.

Have you seen the Republican Majority in the House? They're already making plans on trying to impeach Hillary, and we're not even up to the primaries yet. Nobody is the 45th President of the United States yet, nobody is even a 'Candidate' yet, they're all just 'Hopefuls,' yet our Congress is already spending time, effort and TAXPAYER MONEY to try and get Hillary impeached before she is even elected. Do they have any idea what impression that gives of their confidence in the GOP Hopefuls: "The election is over a year away, and all our guys suck SO bad, the Cups have a better chance of back-to-back World Series wins than we do of putting our guy into the Top Seat."

But this is getting *WAY* into Politics, and I don't do well with politics here, so I'm going to bow out here with a little joke.

"A man walks into a bar. Maybe next time he'll remember to duck."

(I said it was little, I never said it was hilarious.)

"We" don't make the rules.

Congress makes them to benefit themselves and the corporations, PACs and mega-donors.

Congress has to vote to NOT give themselves a big raise every year, otherwise it is automatic.

Term limits will never be passed, the politicians make too much money while in office to ever want it otherwise.

Huh?

Check again. Senators can serve as long as they can get re-elected, every six years.

Yes they can, and if the President dies in office leaving half of more of his term to be filled by the Veep, that counts as '1 term as president' for the newly-former Veep.

I was talking about imposing term limits to get rid of these 'career politicians,' since too long in the 'halls of power' leads a person to forget that they are there to SERVE, not rule over.

I agree completely.

Ditto! That must be a shocker to Adreasler. How about just limiting Senators to two-terms, especially if they are acting majority leader. Give someone else a shot at it.

Things were much simpler (back in the stone age) when I was a kid. Just whack the alpha male, and drag his "wife" off by the hair. That all worked really well, until some bright whiz figured out he was going to be next, and so he invented elections.

Yeah, but remember, back then you had to beat up the old chief to become chief.

At first it was 'whoever is in charge better watch his back.'

Then the chief decided to get some friends to watch his back for him, and then the Other Guy started gathering friends so he could overpower the chief's friends.

Soon it got to be that you got to be chief because your friends outnumbered, overwhelmed, and slaughtered the Other Guy's friends.

Than one weizenheimer, while swilling through the river of blood in the middle of town on his way to work, had an idea. "Instead of killing each other until one side runs out, why don't we just COUNT the people on each side to determine who would beat up the other, and select that side's leader. That way, loosing the selection (or picking the losing side) doesn't mean instant death.

And that, boys and girls, is how elections were invented.

Wow!