Previous in Forum: Grounding System for Power Substation   Next in Forum: Proximity Sensors
Close
Close
Close
17 comments
Rating: Comments: Nested
Participant

Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 1

2500KVA Transformer Daily Switching

10/27/2015 4:28 AM

we have 2500KVA transformer which is in continuous operation from last 7 years. due to reduction in night shift load we want to OFF this transformer in night and again switch ON at morning to save the no load losses of the transformer.

I want to know that, is daily switching of 2500KVA transformer is preferrable or there is possibility of some side effects to the transformer and associated LT/HT switchgears due to daily switching? Is there any impact on the insulation of transformer due to daily switching?

Pl give your valuable feedback.

Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
4
Guru
Australia - Member - New Member

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 2181
Good Answers: 255
#1

Re: 2500KVA transformer daily switching

10/27/2015 6:12 AM

You really should (engage a qualified Electrical Engineer) to be talking to the transformer AND switchgear manufacturers about this one.

You should also (Have a qualified individual) discuss with your bulk power supplier about the impact.

Not fully knowing your installed situation, I cannot understand your reason to want to do this. Usually the transformer is on the bulk supplier side of the metering, so the magnetisation losses are not yours.

If this is one of a set of transformers on your side of metering, then the elimination of the magnetisation current for this one will actually make the hysterisis losses of the others worse.

There would be some "ideal" conditions to extend the switchgear life, like "LV load isolated before switching." (So you are onloy interrupting the magnetisation current)

There is also the issue of the transformer coils di/dt and dv/dt induced voltages during switching.

You need qualified and experinced expert assistance to make the best choice!

__________________
Just an Engineer from the land down under.
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 4)
3
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1686
Good Answers: 116
#2

Re: 2500KVA transformer daily switching

10/27/2015 7:34 AM

I am endorsing JustanEngineers opinion.

Magnetic losses on 2500 kVA transfo will be under 0.5%, say 12 kW or 300 kWh/day - that's about £30/day - £11000/year here - say £5000 at 12 hours/day.

A transfo of that size will have impedance of about 4%, a lot of that is not in the primary. Hence when you energise it and the inevitable flux doubling occurs, you will get saturation and peak currents of 30 x full load or more. It is as bad as short circuiting the transfo LV winding daily.

You have to look at the number of breaker operations and service interval /costs also. What is the cost of a new transfo & delay getting one?

It is a job for the transfo maker to assess, but I do not think there will be much experience of frequent switching out there to back a sound judgement.

I suggest you talk the problem over with a transformer manufacturer.

67model

Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 3)
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: California, USA, where the Godless live next door to God.
Posts: 4665
Good Answers: 804
#7
In reply to #2

Re: 2500KVA transformer daily switching

10/27/2015 4:23 PM

"... £5000 at 12 hours/day."

So if you consider a potential risk of even a £50,000 transformer repair (likely more than that) after just 5 years of doing this madness, you will have saved only £25,000 ... and that's not even considering the lost revenue from down time when the transformer is being repaired!

ROI = -50%... even the worst accountant would see the folly in that.

__________________
** All I every really wanted to be, was... A LUMBERJACK!.**
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: srilanka
Posts: 2725
Good Answers: 5
#12
In reply to #2

Re: 2500KVA transformer daily switching

10/28/2015 1:26 AM

Can we include a capacitor or inductor during starting to reduce starting current surge.

__________________
pnaban
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
3
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42355
Good Answers: 1693
#3

Re: 2500KVA Transformer Daily Switching

10/27/2015 9:46 AM

The quest to squeeze every last penny of profit out of your operation by not hiring a qualified individual to advise you will only end in disaster.

You have no idea of the risks involved in beginning to switch a transformer on and off that has been in continuous operation for 7 years, so why would you ask strangers?

HIRE a QUALIFIED consultant.

Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 3)
9
Guru

Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Eastern Arizona mountains on Route 666 about a mile from God's country
Posts: 1676
Good Answers: 122
#4

Re: 2500KVA Transformer Daily Switching

10/27/2015 10:49 AM

Every time the transformer is de-energized and energized, the mechanical and electrical stress on the windings is extremely high in nature.

During energizing of the transformer, the in-rush current and winding mechanical flex movement(s) are at maximum values.

The mechanical stress to the windings and transformer structure caused by the induced cooling (de-energize) and heating (energize) cycles is also significant in nature.

If this is an oil filled transformer you will have a high risk of moisture buildup in the oil due to the heating and cooling cycle(s) posing a serious risk of transformer electrical failure.

In short;

Any minute energy savings that might be realized by cycling the transformer will be far offset by the incurred cost of damage to the transformer and subsequent premature failure of the unit.

If it were my decision I would not cycle the transformer power.

If you are looking for energy savings I suggest:

1. Turn off all lighting and other unnecessary electrical loads throughout the plant when the workers are not there.

2. Replace any security lighting that fails with LED or Induction type lighting as the lighting units fail.

3. Lower or raise HVAC thermostats as necessary to reduce energy consumption

4. Install occupancy sensors in low traffic areas to turn off lighting when there are no occupants.

5. Take an in-depth look at the overall energy efficiency of the lighting, HVAC, and other electrically operated equipment then perform a cost analysis to determine which items can be replaced with higher efficiency equipment.

6. If the investment payback is not acceptable for a wholesale replacement of low efficiency equipment, I would implement a policy to replace the equipment as it fails with high efficient rated equipment.

__________________
They said; "Brain size?" I heard; "Train size?" so I said: "I'll take a small one, thank you."
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 9)
Guru
Safety - ESD - New Member India - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Energy Engineering - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Pune , India
Posts: 875
Good Answers: 42
#5
In reply to #4

Re: 2500KVA Transformer Daily Switching

10/27/2015 12:40 PM

I agree with your advice. It is absolutely not advisable to switch off the transformer every night. It can be further advised to add fixed capacitance of suitable capacity along with APFC (if installed ) at Substation to avoid low PF penalty. APFC cannot operate under no load condition of the transformer .

Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Eastern Arizona mountains on Route 666 about a mile from God's country
Posts: 1676
Good Answers: 122
#6
In reply to #5

Re: 2500KVA Transformer Daily Switching

10/27/2015 3:04 PM

Excellent idea! You may also want to consider having the ability to switch in added inductance to improve PF during instances wherein the supply power system is capacitive in nature.

__________________
They said; "Brain size?" I heard; "Train size?" so I said: "I'll take a small one, thank you."
Register to Reply
Guru
Safety - ESD - New Member India - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Energy Engineering - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Pune , India
Posts: 875
Good Answers: 42
#15
In reply to #6

Re: 2500KVA Transformer Daily Switching

10/28/2015 12:52 PM

In a Substation normally PF is maintained by switching capacitance with the help of APFC . When the transformer remain idle under no load conditions the PF correction will not be taken care of by the APFC and the capacitance will remain cut off . So correctly calculated Capacitance have to be connected in addition to the Capacitance controlled by the APFC . When the load is switched on the additional requirement of Capacitance will be added to requirement only by APFC .The value of the un controlled capacitance have to be correctly designed so that no inductance need to be added as PF will remain with in limits and never go leading. I had to keep the transformers idle and faced the low PF penalty and had to solve the issue and had carried out corrective measures.

Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 482
#8

Re: 2500KVA Transformer Daily Switching

10/27/2015 10:06 PM

You need to quantify first the scenario.

How much would it cost per day for the energy consumed if the transformer stay's online 24/7. This is should be first on the set of condition. You could easily estimate this by the heat dissipated of the transformer. It would be the difference of transformer and ambient temperature (which I assume you have this on monitoring daily as part of predictive maintenance program)

If you have the estimate how much, equate it with hiring a professional (including fringe benefits plus) the tendency of wrecking the unit as per on-off condition.(High in rush current every turn on condition)

I believe answering these questions will certainly influence your decision.

__________________
The doctor said "just one post or reply aday in CR4, take it or leave it". I said, "what does that mean?"
Register to Reply Score 2 for Off Topic
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: sometimes Wales,UK.. was Libya, now Oman!
Posts: 1715
Good Answers: 117
#9

Re: 2500KVA Transformer Daily Switching

10/27/2015 11:48 PM

You said.

"due to reduction in night shift load we want to OFF this transformer in night and again switch ON at morning"....

So you've not completely shead the load, only reduced it.... so the Transformer is STILL powering machines, lighting, maybe A/C units, etc. So by turning it off, you will not only (hopefully) save on the losses, but completely shut down part of your factory/office/facility.

So why don't you just turn off everything that is NOT being used, install low power lighting, switch off un-used A/C units, install PIR detectors to switch lights on and off.

There is a whole world of power conservation methods you can employ BEFORE you start switching off power transformers, as previously stated by others before me.

Educate your staff to switch off lights, computers, A/C's, install timers on lights, switch off outside lights of not used or needed, switch off warehouse lights if not needed.

__________________
The square root of nothing is what you make it!
Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Resting under the Major Oak
Posts: 4347
Good Answers: 181
#10

Re: 2500KVA Transformer Daily Switching

10/28/2015 12:26 AM

Transformer and circuit breaker damage/maintenance will soon negate your savings.

__________________
The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated.
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 482
#11

Re: 2500KVA Transformer Daily Switching

10/28/2015 12:51 AM

You may opt to seek alternative Eaton & Schnieder, etc. might have energy saving solutions for your needs.

Call their experts that can provide free consultation and offer.

__________________
The doctor said "just one post or reply aday in CR4, take it or leave it". I said, "what does that mean?"
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 4)
Power-User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 258
Good Answers: 2
#13

Re: 2500KVA Transformer Daily Switching

10/28/2015 1:29 AM

Discussion is interesting. What is the difference between switching of the transformer and removing (reducing ) the load?

Suppose primary is kept energised , but all loads on secondary are disconnected or load is removed / minimized- is this same as - remove supply to primary side also?

Why I am asking this question is - someone has said, if you completely shut off the transformer, moisture may affect the oil quality etc. Even if the primary alone is kept energised also- moisture may still affect the oil.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1686
Good Answers: 116
#14
In reply to #13

Re: 2500KVA Transformer Daily Switching

10/28/2015 7:57 AM

xyz,

You are correct, the temperature will cycle due to the load (and climatic changes), the oil will expand and contract, air will move in and out of the tank, bringing moisture. Standard constant full-load temperature rise is about 55 Celsius.

We do not know the transformer rating plate data or specification, which would probably give the magnetising & load losses - it is likely the resistive load losses are about twice the magnetising (core) loss.

The extra effect of power off for 12 hours may be a lot less significant than whether the transfo has a working, well maintained, de-hydrating breather and whether the oil has been cleaned and moisture removed at intervals by a suitable machine.

Not being vibrated 12 hours per day could be some compensation for the temperature cycling effect. Transformers bolted-on to generators which operate on/off for peak lopping experience de-energised times & heating cooling cycles.

However, the considerable stresses at energisation are the big objection to turning off at night - as I wrote, it is as "beneficial" as applying a secondary short circuit daily.

The only way I can conceive for energising the transfo gently is - if the second or other transfo in the plant has the same phasing and is nearby - and the subject transfo is energised on the LV windings via resistance [from the other transfo] - to limit the inrush current before closing the HV breaker & opening the LV resistor breaker.

This would require some big 415V motor size breaker gear and some careful control design, the transfo magnetising power will be about 125 kVA, which cost must be compared to the annual saving.

67model

Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 258
Good Answers: 2
#16
In reply to #14

Re: 2500KVA Transformer Daily Switching

10/28/2015 1:30 PM

Here we are referring to a big transformer rated at 2500 KVA. But India, load shutdown or load shedding is a very common thing. In non-urban areas 10 to 12 hour power almost daily shutdown is quite common. Obviously transformer life will be far lower than the declared life. I don not know whether the utilities limit shut down to distribution level only and keep live the higher voltage level transformers. Hence in this context, I was curious to understand various related issues affecting transformer life etc.

Register to Reply
Guru
Safety - ESD - New Member India - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Energy Engineering - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Pune , India
Posts: 875
Good Answers: 42
#17
In reply to #16

Re: 2500KVA Transformer Daily Switching

10/29/2015 4:29 AM

For pre planned load shedding in India normally the corresponding breakers only are disconnected ( LT and 11 kV ) . It affects the life of the breakers and distribution transformers.It is inevitable considering the short fall of energy production specially during summer and during short supply of coal to generating stations. To avoid frequent breakdowns such breakers and transformers are put on regular preventive maintenance schedule . When such timely preventive maintenance is not carried out there are frequent breakdowns especially in remote villages. Considering the present short fall of Electrical energy production in India the timely preventive maintenance is the only solution.

Register to Reply
Register to Reply 17 comments

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

67model (2); brich (1); JRaef (1); Just an Engineer (1); Legolaz (2); lyn (1); pnaban (1); SHOCKHISCAN (2); TonyS (1); V.I.Abraham (3); xyz (2)

Previous in Forum: Grounding System for Power Substation   Next in Forum: Proximity Sensors

Advertisement