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Smoking Brakes

12/18/2015 8:31 PM

a 747 slams them on @200MPH

https://youtu.be/_g6UswiRCF0

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#1

Re: smoking brakes

12/18/2015 8:58 PM
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#2

Re: smoking brakes

12/19/2015 1:28 AM

Interesting.

Great research topic for the tire industry.

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#3

Re: smoking brakes

12/19/2015 2:59 AM

The brakes are the one's that had to pay the price for that little maneuver. I see they still haven't figured out how to keep the tire beads from melting. And pretty ballzie for the fire dept to spray foam on glowing brake assemblies, I've seen them explode from the shock- dry chem for me thank you, Halon would be better BUT .... That would be another 3 page argument

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#10
In reply to #3

Re: smoking brakes

12/19/2015 11:09 AM

I think using a truckload of Halon to cool down the brakes would be a rather expensive method with the potential for some serious toxic gas exposures to anyone nearby or downwind from the event.

Given using water to cool them down could lead to brake disk shattering I suspect that airport fire crews are fully trained and quite aware of the possibility so they are properly prepared and know where/how to spray the water on them to reduce the dangers to themselves.

From what I can see in the video they start out by spraying the water from a distance and off to the side, likely out of the direct line of fire should a disk shatter so to speak, before moving in and spraying directly at the brake and hub assy full on.

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#11
In reply to #10

Re: smoking brakes

12/19/2015 12:12 PM

I assume after Boeing had a good look they sent the brake Assembly back to the vendor and they're working to make it even better. but I was quite impressed how well they worked after be machined down to almost nothing then being hit with a million lbs load @200 MPH. they delivered in a situation that surely will never be seen during a normal service life.

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#22
In reply to #11

Re: smoking brakes

12/19/2015 3:27 PM

You'd be surprised at how many aborted take off there are in the airline industry. Rejected take off are all part of the aircraft type certification and one of reasons aircraft are so dang expensive.

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#34
In reply to #11

Re: smoking brakes

12/19/2015 10:41 PM

What would "improved" forms of braking cost (relative to making the braking surfaces larger)?It has to be cost effective to the manufacture or it won't happen..

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#37
In reply to #34

Re: smoking brakes

12/20/2015 11:19 AM

I would say that if fully worn out brakes can stop a fully loaded aircraft in a worst case stopping scenario in less distance than anticipated they are probably more than sufficiently designed and don't need much more improving on.

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#38
In reply to #37

Re: smoking brakes

12/20/2015 11:34 AM

Let's not forget what "fully worn out" means. Fully worn out relates to pad thickness, not contact area. Riveted brake pads have no material in the rivet holes when new, so they should produce the same level of friction as a new set.

Not saying its not impressive, just saying the brakes performed as they should.

Runway surface conditions may have contributed to the shorter stopping distance anyway.

Agree, the brakes are fine. Airlines would much rather have 900 less pounds of airplane to keep in the air than 900 feet of shorter stopping distance on the ground.

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#41
In reply to #37

Re: smoking brakes

12/21/2015 10:49 AM

That is exactly what I got out of the video and subsequent comments from the engineers and pilots.

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#45
In reply to #37

Re: smoking brakes

12/21/2015 3:01 PM

And if it don't the FAA will never find the "smoking gun".

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#39
In reply to #34

Re: smoking brakes

12/20/2015 1:00 PM

my point was......you can spend months or years testing designs in labs or comp simulations and get valuable data but a test like this is a goldmine for someone like me with a racers mentality. fantastic is great but better is better

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#21
In reply to #10

Re: smoking brakes

12/19/2015 3:09 PM

Halon is still used on board aircraft for fire suppression, not cooling. Engine compartments and nacelles are plumbed for it's use. Dry Chem. isn't used mainly because of the corrosive nature of it.

One airline I was working at had a pilot who didn't like to fly first thing in the morning. So, one morning while going through first flight engine checks he intentionally stalled the compressor on #1 engine and for the theatrics effects, rather than pulling the "fire handle" he got out and proceeded to discharge a dry chem extinguisher into the engine inlet while it was still spooling down. He did managed to get out of having to take that first flight and any other flights for that airline. The aircraft required an engine change and the engine had to be completely tore down, cleaned and inspected before being put back into service. Not pretty for maintenance nor the passengers. There was about 118 passengers on board that flight that had some inverted attitude's.

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#4

Re: smoking brakes

12/19/2015 6:50 AM

This would be a good project suggestion for the next ME student who asks. Convert the kinetic energy of the plane into Btu, account for the specific and latent heats of suspension components, and compute what heats up, how much, and what melts/boils.

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#7
In reply to #4

Re: smoking brakes

12/19/2015 8:59 AM

just think of all the Teslas that could have been recharged if it had re-gen

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#35
In reply to #4

Re: smoking brakes

12/20/2015 12:24 AM

About 20+ years ago, I used the same reasoning to get the fire ratings of laboratories in an engineering school, after repeated complaints that school couldn't/wouldn't pay for a PE to perform the work.

Suggested to the safety officer that engineering students be assigned this as a project, and professors (mostly PE's) sign off on satisfactory work.

Ratings for all labs were completed, submitted, and approved by end of semester.

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#5

Re: smoking brakes

12/19/2015 8:44 AM

Of course, if you ever heard a tractor trailer with a full load of live pigs lock brakes at 90 mph on I90

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#6
In reply to #5

Re: smoking brakes

12/19/2015 8:48 AM

Voice of experience?

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#8
In reply to #6

Re: smoking brakes

12/19/2015 9:07 AM

From the Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers comics of the 60's

marijuana counter-culture of the day

one of their cartoons imaged such a tractor trailer braking, with all the pigs squealing, the brakes squealing - followed by a mushroom cloud...

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#9

Re: smoking brakes

12/19/2015 9:29 AM

Automatic tire deflation based on some kind of fuse?...interesting!

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#12

Re: smoking brakes

12/19/2015 12:13 PM

I had made a comment to the Air Force some years back when they posted that they were looking for a more efficient braking system for their bid planes.

The Idea is that if a tire has a steel belt that is of one continuous strand, then why cant you utilize the two ends like an armature?

Add a magnetic field around the wheel , or in, or on hub or wherever.. and you have a generator. The more power you draw, the more it drags the speed down.

You can also use the power reclaimed for?

Cool part would be putting power to it.

Then you would have a motor than would effectively move the plane without using 20 gallons to taxi. lol

It just seems common sense.

If you take this idea and run with it at least send me a card.

Can you imagine how torquey and precise the tracking would be on a 4 wheel application of this on a car?

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#13
In reply to #12

Re: smoking brakes

12/19/2015 12:16 PM

I think that would rapidly shred the tire.....it would pull apart

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#17
In reply to #13

Re: smoking brakes

12/19/2015 2:35 PM

steel belts held in place by tire cooled by passing air I assume. It beat hell out of my drop anchor idea!

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#19
In reply to #17

Re: smoking brakes

12/19/2015 2:45 PM

Rubber tires do NOT dissipate heat well. They would explode.

After reading #18 I believe you are on the wrong planet.

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#25
In reply to #19

Re: smoking brakes

12/19/2015 4:12 PM

Is he Trump's science adviser maybe?

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#28
In reply to #25

Re: smoking brakes

12/19/2015 6:22 PM

Could be. All of Trump's blustering about what he will do has been outrageous, impossible, unintelligent and complete fantasy.

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#29
In reply to #28

Re: smoking brakes

12/19/2015 7:52 PM

The problem with Trump, is he has to live down many years of being a gadfly. He is intelligent, and has to learn not to shoot off his mouth.

If he does that he will gather a lot of grass root support, much like Reagen did, although Reagen did not shoot his mouth off.

As it site, do you want the Bush dynasty to buy another 8 years? or one of the same right winged running dogs of the military industrial complex to get the next 8?

Trump is so viable, I anticipate he runs the risk of the assassins gathering. He will certainly kill off that manned fighter that cannot manned fight a fly...

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#30
In reply to #29

Re: smoking brakes

12/19/2015 8:05 PM

Wrong room for this discussion.

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#31
In reply to #30

Re: smoking brakes

12/19/2015 8:07 PM

you originated the topic here...

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#32
In reply to #31

Re: smoking brakes

12/19/2015 8:15 PM

Not that it matters, #25.

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#33
In reply to #32

Re: smoking brakes

12/19/2015 8:25 PM

yes, I see.

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#43
In reply to #25

Re: smoking brakes

12/21/2015 1:22 PM

you folks are good at calling names and poking fun. show me evidence I'm wrong or stop making rude comments. I guess our education system is becoming in such ill repair as that they teach you to just discount everything and everyone so they don't have to teach you the engineering part. Thought of politics? Ever study Observation or make an initial model? Are you out of school? I was gonna quit this forum because of the ruude lack of insight that you Engineers, (meaning the ones that take all ideas and find the most viable through procedure), exhibit. I hope that isn't to rude of me to state but I am a bit autistic myself and find static annoying as that I cant filter it. Conflict is a problem. Show me proof I am wrong. Bottom line. Then I will feel bad enough to correct it in my head and move onto another solution. I do wish all a happy holiday season and hope none of you helped design the brakes I use. I guess the plane video was a waste. They should never of made it because according to you all the tires would blow and burn. What a waste of swimming upstream to make a suggestion to this forum is. I hope your unemployed and that's why you have time to hold up forward progress here and not anywhere that it may be useful. Iff your not man enough to do some ground work before discounting you do not deserve any degree you have. Challenge in the dictionary where you are or have you heard challenged to many times?

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#42
In reply to #19

Re: smoking brakes

12/21/2015 1:00 PM

Hello? didn't they blow them up deliberately after a time of the rims burning and having a million pounds sitting on them? The evidence of durability was in the video. but before knocking a post with your "wisdom" as an engineer shouldn't you have at least payed attention to the movie? Also I was making a suggestion and even giving it away! Engineers develop correct? If I had all the answers I would just hand you kind folk the package for patent and be on my merry. not. this is a thread forum. The way this works is someone has an idea and through civil discussion the idea is thought through or found not viable. This page is like a Monty Python Movie. Isnt there a process you follow on this site that doesn't involve just ignoring video evidence intelligently or doing research and then making suggestions. And FYI the Air Force wanted more. they hounded me for a bit. In Astrophysics and paleontology there are certain proceedures and steps one takes when trying to discount an idea.I am sure that introducing dead virus into a body to create immunity sounded insane as well but

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#44
In reply to #42

Re: smoking brakes

12/21/2015 1:37 PM

Please get your son, the Army Intelligence General, to read the entire thread to you, after he watches the video with you.

Start here: #12

Then go here: #13

Then you come back with: #17

Then go here: #19

If there's any lunacy here, it surely can be traced directly to:

Japan's Tsunami and a theory based on culture.

You are in the same league with some notable crackpots we've had here in the past, such as: kastrupsky and joe.Fordham.

Review some of their threads and you will see that you are all kindred spirits.

Civility abounds in serious discussions.

Vibrating quartz, vortices, ion beams, and Henry Kravis all sound like a Monty Python plot to me.

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#14
In reply to #12

Re: smoking brakes

12/19/2015 1:32 PM

Umm...... What???????????

I suggest you do some heavy reading n how electric motors work, how tires are built and work and the overall energy levels used to do work relating to mass and velocity and you will probably see the many flaws in your concept.

The most obvious one would be if stopping a plane that size turns the brake disks red hot from having to absorb the energy of the moving mass of the plane what would happen when you try to dissipate that energy into heating up the rubber or the steel belting in the tires red hot?

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#15
In reply to #14

Re: smoking brakes

12/19/2015 1:38 PM

Let's just say our new member not only thinks outside of the box, he thinks outside of the planet.

Japan's Tsunami and a theory based on culture.

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#20
In reply to #15

Re: smoking brakes

12/19/2015 3:09 PM

I usually check all resources and double check before making comments. You? The new member Has ideas that came from outside the planet as well.. The extinction event for example.. You move a mass 8km into the atmosphere at 23km per second and youll find the air cant get out of the way quick enough. So it compresses to a liquid, and as it goes through the change of state back to a gas, it will absorb all the heat it can from the surrounding area causing a flash freeze initially. A little twist I put thought to a while back and submitted to Brian Cox when he was with CERN. The movement of air to refill the void would have to be considered as well. If Chixulub was the impact site. Fauna and Flora says it was 50,000 years early. If you recall the breakup of Shoemaker Levy from planetary gravitation then apply that to a few more planets to pass the probability of multiple impact is not a question. My money is on Colorado at the Kansas border for the main, causing north and south Table Mountain on the edge. Magnetic anomaly is present as well as Shattered Quartz and cones. I am just making a suggestion about the tires. Sorry. I get bored. I have a ten year old autistic being preened for MIT very soon and a 37 year old son who taught Engineering and Computer Science as well as assistant dean and director of the department at CU at 20 years old. My second oldest is with Army Intelligence. A General. Thinking outside the box is what Engineers do right? I didn't mean to step on toes. Please accept my apology and wishes for a happy holiday season.

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#26
In reply to #20

Re: smoking brakes

12/19/2015 4:19 PM

You say, "I usually check all resources and double check before making comments".

Do you check them by checking peer reviews of the resources? Checking the author's qualifications? Or do you check them for alignment with your belief?

I have no way of verifying that your children are, as you say, exceptional. I'll take your word for that.

Finally, you didn't step on any toes. Don't worry. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, since there is no vetting and no assurance that anyone here didn't just escape the loony bin, many members post over the top ideas.

Be prepared for a skeptical response if you post unverifiable, fantastic claims here.

Merry Christmas.

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#18
In reply to #14

Re: smoking brakes

12/19/2015 2:43 PM

Was making electric motors when I was 8.

With computer to channel power generated at a sufficient rate the heat could be controlled with the bleed off rate.

This plane weighs a million lbs. I believe the tire structure would be resistant to enough heat to stop a plane with bad brakes, let alone the weight rating and structuring required to take the torque of extreme braking,.. Or did I just watch the wrong video?

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#23
In reply to #18

Re: smoking brakes

12/19/2015 3:28 PM

Do what with a computer? Channel the heat through a program?

Given you replies to others I have a strong suspicion you do not have a solid grasp of physics, electrical and general, let alone the thermodynamics relating to energy changes and how heat from each change is transferred or handled by different materials.

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#16
In reply to #12

Re: smoking brakes

12/19/2015 2:26 PM

I think they have experimented and determined that friction is best for planes. You can use magnetic brakes where a copper armature is moved through an intense magnetic field but then the weight of the armature and the magnet have to fly with you = fuel use that is a repeated cost.

Steel = bad conductor = less drag and heats the tire.

This mag braking works well on trains, where weight is not a problem, as well as some cars

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#24
In reply to #12

Re: smoking brakes

12/19/2015 4:12 PM

Some aircraft do have motors in their wheel assemblies. for wheel "spin up" before landing. It's not that common because of the weight penalties involved and the same reason you won't see regenerative braking on aircraft. But, something like a regenerative capture system might be feasible.

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#27
In reply to #12

Re: smoking brakes

12/19/2015 4:46 PM

"... without using 20 gallons to taxi. lol" I would think that you would already know, aircraft fuel burn is rated in pounds per hour and not gallons, so they would burn approx. 136 pounds to taxi. ROTFLMAO

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#48
In reply to #12

Re: smoking brakes

12/22/2015 8:09 PM

In order for your idea to work the tires would have to be made of some high temperature material other than the rubber used for aircraft and vehicles today.

The heat generated in the wires by the magnetic field would cause the rubber used on aircraft and vehicles to stretch and/or melt then the wires would either rotate inside the carcass or the tire would come apart.

The amount of current needed to produce effective braking at the wheels would require a pretty heavy generator onboard the aircraft, heavy wound coils at each wheel, and several very heavy cables.

I think the current breakthrough using sound waves to defeat gravity will drastically change how aircraft takeoffs are executed in the very near future.

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#36

Re: Smoking Brakes

12/20/2015 12:29 AM

Uh, shouldn't the plane be filled with screaming passengers and luggage for this test....

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#40

Re: Smoking Brakes

12/20/2015 1:36 PM

Here's a fairly good picture of a typical brake assy. used on large commercial aircraft

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#46

Re: Smoking Brakes

12/21/2015 4:56 PM

Gotta love AMERICAN ENGINEERING!!!!!!!

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#47

Re: Smoking Brakes

12/22/2015 5:51 PM
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#49

Re: Smoking Brakes

12/27/2015 9:57 AM

the ties should be filled with CO2 rather than air and the fuses on the tires should be directed to discharge directly at anticipated areas prone to ignition. they wouldn't extinguish a large fire but every bit counts

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#50
In reply to #49

Re: Smoking Brakes

12/27/2015 8:47 PM

Tires are filled with nitrogen, so discharge would have the same effect.

Learned this about 15 years ago while witnessing a pressure test of a liquid nitrogen tank at an airport.

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#51
In reply to #50

Re: Smoking Brakes

12/27/2015 9:03 PM

sounds cold

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