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Would You Do This to Prove a Point?

01/29/2016 6:38 PM

Most of us know that the projectile from a rifle fired under water doesn't travel very far, but would you stand in a pool and deliberately be the target??

https://www.yahoo.com/tech/crazy-video-physics-teacher-shoots-himself-underwater-prove-220034263.html

Reminds me of the time when my Electrical Shop teacher made each of us stand on a rubber mat and touch the hot conductor on a light board; theory said "no problem", brain said "no way"!

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#1

Re: Would you do this to prove a point??

01/29/2016 6:45 PM

Yes, I would.

But in order to validate the theory, he'll need to perform a second demonstration in air.

That, I would not do.

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#2

Re: Would you do this to prove a point??

01/29/2016 8:28 PM

I offer to pull the trigger for you

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#3

Re: Would you do this to prove a point??

01/29/2016 8:32 PM

Maybe, after I had shot it a few times to verify the bullet wasn't going very fast where I would be standing.

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#4

Re: Would you do this to prove a point??

01/29/2016 8:48 PM

I can just see the newscast the next morning, he was killed by a fluke occurrence of soft water generated by the new filter system which created tiny air bubbles and the use of a teflon coated bullet which was mixed in with the other ammo by mistake say experts...

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#5

Re: Would you do this to prove a point??

01/29/2016 8:59 PM

If he had it set to rapid fire he may have gotten a very different result as each bullet cleared a progressively longer path through the water for the next one to follow.

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#6

Re: Would you do this to prove a point??

01/29/2016 9:12 PM

Well, when I was a freshman in high school wood shop. I was using the electric hand planer and planing a 42" diameter American Elm block cut at a slight angle to make it oval by 6" thick, that I was making into a coffee table.

My instructor stopped me and took the hand planer away and began to scold me because I was operating the electric hand planing without first writing my safety rules on that hand tool, as he was pointing the hand planer at me. Saying that I could get hurt using this tool as he was pointing it at me, he lowered his arm to his side, he accidentally pressed the on button and proceeded to get his shop coat he was wearing wound up in the hand planer.

As a quick witted kid,.... Some would call it something else, I asked the instructor, I didn't quite catch that, could he show me the dangers again.

I passed that class that semester with a 'D-', the first boy that ever got a 'D-' in shop class.

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#7
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Re: Would you do this to prove a point??

01/30/2016 12:09 AM

Are you sure your name wasn't Timjitsu?

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#8
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Re: Would you do this to prove a point??

01/30/2016 8:15 AM

Not familiar with the name, but when this happened, the instructors son, was my best friend at the time and he was with me. He couldn't believe that I was laughing at his dad,... which being a friend made him laugh, (kinda like a group of kids together and one kid farting in church).

The instructor was embarrass, but he should not have been trying to overly enthusiastically prove a point to the class. He knew that I've handled power tools like this with respect, because we had a shop at home that was as comparable or better than that of the schools. He knew this because he saw our shop at home when he bought lumber from us (We also had a sawmill) for his side jobs as a outdoor furniture business.

By the way, that Elm Coffee table, I finished it, I used a smaller cedar stump as a base, and I put a high gloss polyurethane finish on it (it was a (2) part hardener and catalyst at $140.00. Very Expensive for a 14 year old) That gave it a wet look finish. Enter it in my 4H wood working project at the county fair that summer and won Grand Champion) Was offered $1200.00 for it at the fair.... This was in the mid 70's mind you.

So yes, at times, I did have a pretty big chip on my shoulders... and still do.

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#26
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Re: Would you do this to prove a point??

01/31/2016 10:07 PM

The instructor should have gotten the "D-".

He was "supposed" to know better and be an example.

BTW do you know if he was back the following year?

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#27
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Re: Would you do this to prove a point??

01/31/2016 10:52 PM

Actually he was very good woodworker... But scrap material disappeared from school. Especially the more exotic wood. Hated when he bought cedar from us and picked it up from our yard. He'd pick through the pile, took the select and never restacked it. Considering our price that we charged and the quality. With our own mill, we did saw the cedar a full 2" thick.

Plus he wrote a lot of how-to books with the hand router, scroll saw. Craftsman and Sears supported him with tools and had a lot of his books in stock.

Matter of fact, the safety rules that I had to write, it came out of a book he wrote that the school bought.

He was a pretty cool guy, golden glove boxer and one other thing, I did make a comment to my friend who was his son... That his dad looked like Mr. Spock on Star Trek. And he did.

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#28
In reply to #7

Re: Would you do this to prove a point??

02/01/2016 10:30 AM

Or Little Fritz?

That situation follows the 'formula' for a German Fritzchen joke perfectly:

  1. Fritz is doing something.
  2. Authority Figure comes along, tells Fritz he is wrong in what he is doing.
  3. Authority Figure, while answering Fritz's questions, either contradicts himself, does just what he was forbidding, or otherwise makes himself look like a nincompoop.
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#30
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Re: Would you do this to prove a point??

02/01/2016 10:48 AM

Or the term, "What are you 'futzin' with?" or " 'Futzin' around again." or "You 'futz' it up again."

Futz

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#31
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Re: Would you do this to prove a point??

02/01/2016 12:15 PM

Ah, now I understand better that 'battle cry' the adult leaders used back when I was in Scouting: "Brendon, don't futz!" This scout had the uncanny knack to break almost anything he touched, but never deliberately or out of malice.

He once broke a Jeep; went to clean the windshield while we were at a fuel stop on the way to Summer Camp, and the driver's side wiper arm just came off in his hand. Not the plastic squeegie frame, but the metal arm that holds the frame. Snapped right in the middle, didn't bend or flex, just snapped apart like it was a pre-scored glass rod. It COULD have been a manufacturing flaw, but this jeep was already a few years old, something like that should have shown up well before then.

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#32
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Re: Would you do this to prove a point??

02/01/2016 1:34 PM

I was about 12 years old, and I broke something on a piece of farm equipment. And my dad was po'ed, He told me that, "I'd break a steel ball if he'd give one to me."

Even being scolded, I thought that was pretty funny as I told my dad,... "that's was nothing... I'm only 12 years old,.... wait till I'm 18... "

dad saw the humor in it too... fortunately.

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#9

Re: Would you do this to prove a point??

01/30/2016 12:54 PM

..because no one will ever try this one yet. This should be the next bed thing. May be he should try a little harder next time, with this.

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Re: Would you do this to prove a point??

01/30/2016 1:11 PM
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#11
In reply to #10

Re: Would you do this to prove a point??

01/30/2016 5:03 PM

Ha ha.. should have showed him the video just before he was going to pull the trigger....

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#12

Re: Would You Do This to Prove a Point?

01/30/2016 11:32 PM

A network engineer was practicing at the pistol range one day and wasn't hitting the target. He placed his finger over the muzzle and pulled the trigger, shooting his finger off. He proudly exclaimed, " the trouble must be at the other end".

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#13

Re: Would You Do This to Prove a Point?

01/31/2016 12:14 AM

Several seasons ago I saw an episode on Mythbusters where Adam and Jamie tried to verify that the practice of diving below the surface of water when being shot at would slow the bullet sufficiently as to case no harm.

I can't remember what rifle and round they were using, but they are both still alive.

If to prove a point, I would say NO, but if I was being shot at and had no other alternative, definitely YES.

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#14
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Re: Would You Do This to Prove a Point?

01/31/2016 1:50 AM

I would think there would be a big difference with the rifle being shot from up above the water vs being shot underwater....as you can see from the video here, there is a big difference between type of weapon being used....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dihs9JcVt3E

AK47

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cp5gdUHFGIQ

more fun...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5y6EmERRKk

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#15
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Re: Would You Do This to Prove a Point?

01/31/2016 7:49 AM

I beleive it was it was the history channel did a documentary on D-Day. On the German MG34 or MG 42 machine gun.

When the allies landed, particularly on Omaha Beach, that life and death amounted inches my being critically wound by this machine gun. Where they test fired it in a dunk tank and videoed the bullet through the water on the glass side of the dunk tank.

And by the difference between life and death by inches, I mean the water that is between you and the bullet.

It was quite interesting. And it's not like the movies portray it. And example in the movie 'Saving Private Ryan' on the landing they'd should soldiers struggling with their packs pulling them underwater, and a shell would rip through them when they are a couple of feet underwater, is unlikely.

And I say unlikely, because, they were there and I wasn't. It was a world of crap and survival was a premium.

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#18
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Re: Would You Do This to Prove a Point?

01/31/2016 9:54 AM

Yes I recall watching that movie and they do show a soldier being hit while underwater and I remember thinking that this would not happen in real life, recalling the myth busters experiment. However its a movie and they need to make it dramatic.

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#17
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Re: Would You Do This to Prove a Point?

01/31/2016 9:50 AM

Yes I recall seeing that episode. they used different calibers all the way up to and including .50 cal (a very large bullet).

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#29
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Re: Would You Do This to Prove a Point?

02/01/2016 10:34 AM

The Mythbuster in the water (Adam) was also WELL outside the field of fire of the weapon the other one (Jamie) was firing into the water at the suspended Ballistics Jell target.

It seemed that the higher-velocity projectiles did not like the air-water transition at that speed and tended to 'schrapnel' themselves as they hit the water. the rounds never making it to the target.

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#16

Re: Would You Do This to Prove a Point?

01/31/2016 8:17 AM

Ammo is not all that is supercavitating.

More than one country has them now,including China.

Check out these torpedoes,and associated links:

Faster than sound,underwater? Scary!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VA-111_Shkval

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#19
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Re: Would You Do This to Prove a Point?

01/31/2016 10:23 AM
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#21
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Re: Would You Do This to Prove a Point?

01/31/2016 11:33 AM

I think the link was referring to speed of sound through air.

There is nothing theoretically,however,to prevent the top speed of these torpedoes from exceeding that speed underwater.

Steering was the problem,but I think they solved that with high speed CPU's and steerable nose cone.

The actual top speed in test lab is classified,but rumored to be faster than sonar.

The technology has improved drastically in the last 40+ years, as has stealth diesel submarines.

Turn on your flashlight and listen; that is the sound of the new diesel subs,made in Germany and other countries.

They carry sufficient oxygen and Argon to run the diesels,and recycle the Argon by scrubbing it from the exhaust.

This enables significantly greater range than the older technology.

Not comparable to the range of a Nuclear sub,but much cheaper,which allows a small country to buy one.

The world is becoming more dangerous everyday.

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#23
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Re: Would You Do This to Prove a Point?

01/31/2016 1:00 PM
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#24
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Re: Would You Do This to Prove a Point?

01/31/2016 6:45 PM

..."This technology uses a submarine diesel engine which can be operated conventionally on the surface, but which can also be provided with oxidant, usually stored as liquid oxygen, when submerged. Since the metal of an engine will burn in pure oxygen, the oxygen is usually diluted with recycled exhaust gas. Argon replaces exhaust gas when the engine is started."...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air-independent_propulsion

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#25
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Re: Would You Do This to Prove a Point?

01/31/2016 7:04 PM

Here is another interesting link for a diesel that can run when sub is totally submerged.

https://www.quora.com/What-is-air-independent-propulsion-in-modern-submarines-that-is-being-built-by-Japan-for-Australia

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#20

Re: Would You Do This to Prove a Point?

01/31/2016 10:30 AM

How does this all equate to shooting fish in a barrel?

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#22

Re: Would You Do This to Prove a Point?

01/31/2016 12:48 PM

He's still a "dumb f*ck" for trying this. That is a H&K 416, most likely chambered in 9mm x 19 mm NATO, which the German Army prefers. It's not exactly the best performing round out there, with a lackluster muzzle velocity and low grain weight. If it had been a 5.56x45 NATO round it would most likely struck him.

Yeah, our own USN SEALS hump Heckler & Koch 416s, chambered in either 5.56 NATO or .308 NATO, because you can actually fire them underwater w/o fear of the weapon exploding in your hands, unlike many other infantry rifles and others.

Expect to see this moron's Obit in the paper someday if he's not careful.

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#33

Re: Would You Do This to Prove a Point?

02/01/2016 5:45 PM

Bullet dynamics very, very, simplified!

In order to make a comparison between behaviour in air and in water I assumed that in both media the drag coefficient is the same, I am aware that there will be differences but even with a simplified model the order of magnitude can be estimated.

The parameters are,

For the bullet: mass, the frontal area, initial velocity and the drag coefficient

For the fluid: the specific mass and its kinematic viscosity

The basic equation is: M*dw/dt=-F with the initial condition @t=0w=w0

The resistant force F depends on the bullet velocity especially in water. In a 1st phase it is only dependent on the drag force

Fh=ξ*Af*ρ*w²/2

In the second phase I presume that also a friction force on the lateral surface will add to the first Ff=η*AL*k*w

The friction force is proportional to the velocity gradient at the lateral surface (within the boundary layer) which I approximate by the "k" coefficient.

If we consider only the 1st phase the equation is:

M*dw/dt=- ξ*Af*ρ*w²/2

We can write it as:

dw/w²=- ξ*Af*ρ*dt/2

which can be integrated and gives, considering the initial condition, following equation for the velocity:

w/wo=(1+t/T1)^-1 with (1)

T1=(wo*ξ* Af* ρ*/(2*M)

We can further integrate the velocity in order to obtain the displacement versus time :

S/(w0*T1)=ln(1+t/T1)

Looking at equation (1) we can obtain a relationship between displacement and velocity in dimensionless parameters as

S/(w0*T1)=ln(w0/w) (2)

The graph shows how velocity varies as function of distance.

A bullet is lethal in air a distance Sair and has at this distance the velocity wL.

In water to still be lethal it should have same velocity wL. If we assume that the initial velocity in both cases is the same then we can write that

Sair/T1air= Swater/T1water Swater=Sair*T1water/T1air=Sair*1.3/999=0.0013013 * Sair

We know that a sniper can be effective at 1000m so that same bullet can have same effect at 1.3m.

If you place your self at for instance 3m there will be no harm.

In fact the non lethal distance is even shorter since this estimation did not take into consideration the second phase with the lateral surface friction. The dynamic viscosity of water is about 100 x bigger than same parameter of air which will reduce even more the lethal distance!

The pictures show the "tester" at distances around 3 m from the riffle whic is coherent with my simplified estimations!

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#34

Re: Would You Do This to Prove a Point?

02/03/2016 7:10 AM

I strongly suggest we use lawyers for the test.

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#35
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Re: Would You Do This to Prove a Point?

02/03/2016 7:27 AM

And we have to do it in multiple tests to verify it... Scientifically..

Oh, there's a line starting to form as the marksman... whoa...., hold it...... wait till he gets in the water...

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