How to make Chinese auto parts products trusted

If you have a Chinese auto your goin to need the parts sooner or later. The alternative is pirate parts which exist everywhere. If you buy a dodgy auto you just gotta put up with it. Doesn't matter where the thing is made.

tks for your comment. however what we sold is not binded with Chinese cars, for your info we get ISO9001 and TS 16949 certificate, ours are sold well in europe for the kinds of auto, so what i am confused is not if other market trust our quality after they know our production but how they will know us and trust us as normal supply choice at auto part market.

Simply put, your parts have to be sold here, and if they are good and reliable, they will come to be trusted after a period of time. Ironically, Taiwanese and Korean parts used to be considered garbage when they first started being sold here, and they were inferior, but people still bought them (they were cheaper). How you get parts to be sold and used here in the beginning is the trickier question. It may not be just a simple matter of earning trust, but also overcoming politics and perceived territorial threat by the parts sources that are already established on this continent. They would have obvious reason to spread bad propaganda about you and your parts to protect their market share. Parts and service are pretty much the last remaining income source for car dealerships (they make very little money on car sales).

One way to make progress might be through the established Chinese communities in North America. I live just north of Toronto, right beside Markham, one of the largest Chinese communities. I would think you might have good success setting up parts distribution dealerships in these communities, which would then allow your reputation to grow outwardly from there.

If you want to be truly forward thinking, use environmentally friendly practices into your manufacturing processes. Buy your raw materials only from the most modern, least polluting suppliers. The whole world is watching China with a critical (and fearful) eye over this globally important issue. There is already a backlash in response to recent events. I'm sure you also know how important it is to your country to be seen in a positive way in this regard (I refer to the massive efforts to clean up Beijing for the 2008 Olympics). It could make a big difference to your long-term success in the global marketplace.

Don't export parts that are inferior. Improve your design, manufacturing and quality control. Use good material to start with.

Most of the Chinese mechanical auto parts I have seen are poorly made of inferior materials. The times I have used them because of no other option, they have failed shortly after installation. Once you get a reputation for making junk, you will have to make superior parts at the same cost for a long time to get a reputation for making good (not superior) parts.

Good luck

I have yet to buy a good or excellent quality Chinese product, I have purchased stuff that is ok but not great.

Example: I have two older Toyota Camry's and replaced the radiator 1 year ago on one of them. This radiator was made in Brazil (Modine Brand) -- My second car needed one just one month ago so I purchased the same brand, to my dismay. The second one was made in China and was an extremely bad fit, Mounting holes did not line up and the mounting hardware (in very difficult to reach places) would not stay in place.

It cools the car well but the external engineering detail was horrible, and made installation a horror. The brazil model fit right in and I was done with installation on the first one in less than 1 hour. The chinese one fought me all the way for a 3+ hour battle.

I am willing to try anything once but I've had enough of Chinese products and put special effort and extra $$ to buy US only. This is almost impossible but I try it first now.

Chinese products of all kinds are looked on with suspicion in the west because the chinese habit of making fake and pirated products is so well known in the west. This is not a recent thing either, it is embedded in the chinese culture to make copies, pirates and fakes, going way back into the distant past. This is different to the perception of the earliest japanese goods that arrived in the west which gained a reputation for cheapness but not for being fake and not necessarily poor quality either. Whereas the chinese are notorious for making fake cd's, fake designer products, fake swiss watches, fake cars, fake motorcycles, pirated proprietory software, pirated movies, etc, etc, etc. I have a friend who has connections with the beijing government and he has told me that for chinese venture partners who joint venture with western manufacturers that are setting up a manufacturing unit in china, it is a normal practice for the chinese venture partner to secretly build a replica factory elsewhere, exactly the same as that which the western company specifies, and that factory which is unknown to the innocent western manufacturer then enables the chinese venture partner to produce and distribute "genuine fakes" that are indistinguishable from the genuine articles through seperate distribution channels at a price that is well below the market price at which the western manufacturer could make a profit because the western manufacturer has had to build in all the costs of research and development, product and brand awareness marketing, plus the huge costs of trade marking and patenting, whereas the chinese venture partner making exactly the same product stolen from the western company has had none of those expenses to shoulder and so can more easily profit from selling the identical goods without having those costs to contend with, thus benefitting from someone else's work and effort. This practice is backed by approval from the beijing government through various practices such as beijing forcing western companies to take chinese venture partners if they want to manufacture goods in china, especially where the manufacturer is a maker of high tech products. Corrupt administration officials who sit at all levels of government in china from beijing down to local level automatically favor the chinese side in any dispute simply because the chinese partner will know who best to corrupt in order to get the right result and this ensures that the corruption circle in china is complete. This is not looked on as a misdemeanor in china, it is a way of life, it's how you get ahead in china. But this is still a mystery to western companies and western companies are being taken for a ride on a massive scale in china, most especially through the theft of intellectual property which is almost impossible to protect in the chinese courts because the concept of intellectual property is barely recognized in china, and even where it is recognized it is not respected, and that goes to the highest level in the beijing government and runs right through chinese culture down to the street level. When you add in the beijing government's contempt for the west in various areas of political life which are not associated with this discussion you have on balance got one country of over a billion people happily, and to their thinking righteously, stealing the intellectual property and monetary rights of the rest of the world. Then add in just recent things like poison deliberately used in pet foods in order to cut costs, poison deliberately used in toothpaste in order to cut costs, poison deliberately used in baby foods in order to cut costs, plus the beijing governments total contempt for the well being of even their own people in the matter of pollution, never mind their contempt for the west in that matter, you may have some idea why there is suspicion and contempt for chinese products in the west. America has a more right wing view of china than europe does because america is more of a manufacturing culture than europe is, whereas europe is more of a service culture, which explains europe's more nonchalant attitude towards chinese commercial crimes, hence their tacit and passive acceptance of chinese products.

Micheal,

Are you talking about the sale of 'pattern' or 'after market' parts here, or are you interested in becoming a supplier of 'original equipment' to the auto makers?? To tackle the former you need an expensive marketing campaign in the motor factors and retail motor trade, you might even use TV to get the public asking for your brand.

To get onboard as original equipment supplier you have to convince OEMs your product is better and cheaper through their engineers and purchasing departments. Better still, convince them you have technology and manufacturing techniques that enable them to design better/lighter/cheaper parts.

It is not a difficult question. Just quit trying to sell garbage. Quit trying to circumvent our laws and international laws by pirating western goods. Quit selling foodstuffs aduterated with toxins. In short grow up and play by the rules...

I think right now, China, as a country, is suffering from our nation-wide alerts of bad and "toxic" products China exports to the US. We have had nation-wide alerts re imported toxic Chinese toothpaste, and on and on. The most recent alert was for ginger root that is contaminated with a toxic pesticide. Historically, back in the late 1940s and early 1950's, Japanese products exported to the US were essentially junk. Soon, any product labeled "made in Japan" was not welcome and not bought. The Japanese went so far as to "incorporate" a manufacturing area (town) and name it Usa, such that they could mark their products "Made in USA". Over the years, the Japanese learned from our manufacturing plants, their steel mills and factories were mostly new, after 1945, whereas the US factories and steel mills dated to the 1920s and 1930s, at best. Now, Japanese products are rated as excellent across the board. One has only to look at Toyota, which is nearing the position of the largest automotive producing company in the world, as well as Nissan, etc. The way the Japanese got to this point is simple: QUALITY. China has to learn from the Japanese and export only quality goods. A single bad experience with Chinese goods overshadows anything good the Chinese manufacturers do, and it is difficult to rebuild confidence in their products once again.

I assume that you jest. I am sure that a good portion of auto parts are made in China. I just relined the brakes on my truck, the shoes and brake hydraulic cylinders were made in China. Having traveled extensively in Asia including China the major problem I know of is the lack of honesty in China vs. other Asian countries. As my friend in Shanghai says the Chinese should not worry about losing face they have so many of them.

especially for you buddy, in person i think you are a real jerk maybe your friend, because here is forum for business communication i dont think it is good to talk like that here, but it is rest time now for me so i post some personal words, for your info here is not erotic website please dont show your mental nudity to public. also i want to say if anyone want to give comment you could critcize even curse chinese goods as long as you have bad experience, but if you want to value our people fisrt look into yourself and make sure your soul is clean, sir "travelerengineer", word says mind, it is very dark in your heart

Sorry, but I agree with travelerengineer on his statements, he may have said it crudely but I have the same feeling. This feeling is not for the average Chinese people, who i'm sure, just like everyone else, are striving for success and trying to make ends meet. Lack of trust is for the government there and the realtionship they have with the rest of the world.

Watch the news each day and you will see something on this issue,

travelerengineer's opinion of your country and the products has nothing to do with his heart or soul. And it certainly had nothing to do with erotica. Many folks are not only unhappy with Chinese products, they are angry and rightfully so..

It looks as though your taking his comments as personal - The reality is China DOES counterfit parts as cheaply as possible (ie. toothpaste, pet food).

So don't go off on someone personally when he speaks the truth of your country men.

Did I say all of China is corrupt? NO - but you CAN fix it - You know where the trouble lies...

you know what truth it is, the truth is what you tell after you have live experience and real understanding about whole situation of one country, not what you learned from your national TV&paper or other's eyes(why a lot of war start).talking about corrupt, the discrimination and non-reason hostility is real corrupt, you should know that after you read your own constitution. i am really sick of the personal assault like you did and will not answer again. one thing i belive if your country is good and of high-morality it wont birht like your kind who only know to vituperate and insult a whole other nation.

You're right, the truth hurts.

I meant no offense nor take no offense.

But the reality remains the same...

Michael here is another thread with input from more professional folks some with dealings in China. Outsourcing to China: Yet Another Horror Story

After reading his response to your post -- I think I'm going to leave this one alone -- I think there is a can missing from the six-pack.

It's sad that the culture has been conditioned to be tolerant of the corruption or possibly "blind" to it...

It's unfortunate that consumers need to be vigilant to the products they consume, no matter where they are made.

Case in point: API release - counterfeit cancer treatment drugs. <What is the world coming to? Ultimate greed...

Great story:

http://www.popsci.com/popsci/technology/e7e48a137b144110vgnvcm1000004eecbccdrcrd.html

milo

The best evidence yet of chinese government collusion in the entire swindle. What is the united states doing about it? Nothing. Bush and Paulson have been corrupted by backhanders and chinese pussy.

What sort of auto parts are you trying to sell? Here in the U.S. I have trouble finding anything NOT made in China anymore. Like others are saying customers will try anything once if it costs less, if the products are good it works out... - good quality products are trusted.

I try not to buy anything made in China because of their lack of integrity. I cannot trust their products until they demonstrate a quality beyond what is routinely offered from other sources. Besides, if I have the option (which I do in this case) I will not support thieves with my purchases.

China had the choice to enter the world market with respect or with cheap copies of quality products. They chose the latter and they will suffer the consequences for many years, perhaps for decades.

The Chinese have a reputation for thievery which is well earned. This is China's first exposure to western economics and their blatant rip offs of everything marketable (as a previous Guest remarked) will haunt them for decades.

This is not something you can solve overnight Michael. Even if today China suddenly stopped piracy, intellectual theft, inferior product manufacturing, and government/industry corruption, it would take a lifetime to repair their damaged reputation.

After WW II the Japanese produced many cheaply made goods which gave the "Made in Japan" a tarnished image. Since their adoption of Deming's quality strategies "Made in Japan" has become a logo equal to or exceeding the reputation of other competing manufacturing countries.

The one significant difference between Japan's post war experience and China's recent entry into the world's economics is honesty. By and large Japan produced goods honestly, under license and of their own design. China has arrogantly shown itself to be just the opposite.

Well said taejonkwando. It's perfectly clear what the problem is and that won't be solved all the time the Chinese continue their blatant stealing of Western intellectual property with official Chinese government sanctioning.

You have GOT to be kidding me, the Japanese wrote the book on industrial espionage back in the day, especially with electronics. The only significant difference is that they figured out relatively quickly how to improve on the stolen technology. Geniuses at miniaturization. But it was nonetheless based on R & D that was not their own.

Munky -- Your statement is absolutely true, I still have a mis-trust of Japan imports to this day left over from the old days. I do admit they make some very good products now, and I do buy them. Many of the Japanese companies have fabulous marketing strategies and do not give the appearance of taking the rest of the world lightly.

Japanese companies also give back to the USA by manufacturing some of their products here, contributing to job creation.

Michael, I have to agree with everyone on the idea that China is a corrupt country that has found a way to work with companies like Walmart and others to sell inferior, cheap, and dangerous products to the world. Your country needs a revolution both politically and morally. Buying anything taken into the body from China is taking your life into your hands. And, you can walk down the aisle of most retailers and see the poor quality products that they are selling. I understand that China wants to be percieved as a world leader, but at some point you either start producing quality items that you develop without stealing, or go back to being a communist run country that has nothing worthwhile to offer to the rest of the world. And finally, please take this back to your fellow countrymen and countrywomen, we do not need you for anything. There is nothing you can grow or produce or develop that we cannot do for ourselves. If you want our business like the Japanese have done, develop it and produce it to be as good or better than we can already do. Otherwise you and anything your country does is 100% irrelevant.

Your breathtaking arrogance is ludicrous..China has a wonderful and varied culture...ever heard of the Teracotta Army? Fireworks, Gunpowder or the Chinese repeating crossbow?

You don't even have the courage or courtesy to sign your name...or nationality

Yes I have to agree on many points...but to say China has nothing to offer and is irrelevant is arrogance of the highest order...

I don't s'pose you have ever eaten their cuisine either.

It is easy to criticise any country....want to buy miss-labelled GM rice anyone?

I agree with Del the cat, you cant label an entire country that comprises around one billion people as totally irrelevant, just because a handful of individuals are not doing the right thing.

You can't blame the problem solely on the people of China and we have to accept at least 50% of the responsibility for the situation we now find ourselves in. If the managers and directors were no so intent on reducing costs and maximizing profits with total disregard of the consequences then they must accept at least half the responsibility for the results. I am sure they would nave no problem with accepting their bonus or the accolades showered on them when the retrench half the workforce and double the short term profits.

Actually. are those that decide to outsource production and services to countries with a lower standard of living, any better than the people they are dealing with and who are responsible for the atrocious working conditions that are little better than slave labor, their employees are forced to tolerate.

to be polite i thank everyone for thier comments, especially for the people who gave neutral and genuine suggestion.

first, for the people who just try to denigrate Chinese products think about your exported low-grade goods like drug,food sometimes the chemical garbage and the high pollutiation factory your own country built in developping countries. if it is said that we export inferior goods, you export high-grade poison.and if it is concerned with morality i dont think there is any country would stay in same line with a five thousand years nation.

second, for the people who had not good experience from Chinese bad products, i say sorry, and we are cleaning the manufacturing enviroment. however on one hand most of our goods are not so bad or your country would have forbidden the importation, the other hand as you compared with other countries goods we are on the road to perfect production, sth would happen, mistake would be made, but we are trying to be perfect.

third, for the people who gave advice concerning our products, what we made is mainly for the aftermarket but i fould little channel to enter other like america and oceania market and that's why i starts this q&a. as for the manufacturing gap between usa and eu referred by someone, to be frank, i dont think so, just memorize where first machine was made.

tks for neutral words(including negative comments) because it means we want to make everything better; tks for other words because i will gave back my idea and other people will found who is right and good. by the way if you want to know the input method i suggest you better visit microsoft website where you would learn more

by the way if you want to know the input method i suggest you better visit microsoft website where you would learn more

What Microsoft website are you referring to? I would be interested in looking at it.

official site of Microsoft or Kingsoft, you are welcome

I too am concerned about the impact China's development may have on the planet, and to some degree on the economics of 'developed' countries.

We can hardly 'get off' on China-bashing however, before we've worked out how to trade fairly and live sustainably in the werstern world. Many of us in the UK don't want meat raised on steroids and let's not pretend OUR raw material consumption and processes haven't brought us to where we are today.

Stop chucking stuff away! Buy only what can be really recycled or will at least last a lifetime. Since when did anyone need a new kitchen every few years???

Then reverse population growth!

Whose first?

All due respect, but I really don't think anyone here is China Bashing, the comments here reflect the views of people who have been ripped off, purchased poor quality products, read about old men poisoned (the plant that killed him was closed by the Chinese gov't), dogs and cats killed, dangerous children's toys. The whole world opinion is probably not wrong.

Michael is correct when he says we have not personally experience the Chinese culture or the environment in China, but I don't really think the FDA, consumers groups, independent investigations, media reports i.e respected news agencies (API, CNN, Wall Street Journal on an on. What do these folks have to gain buy reporting incorrect news???

Sometimes it is not necessary to experience everything first hand, it is like when a person tells you to "Be careful of the stove top -- it is hot and will burn you. You don't stick your hand on the stove to gain first hand knowledge that the stove is hot.

Until the WTO can establish rules to govern trade quality and have a means to enforce those regulations, we will all have to be vigilant about what we consume.

Remember what drives trade and more importantly, how and who controls it...

(The reason for corruption)

I started the thread Outsourcing to China: Yet Another Horror Story that has been running in parallel with this thread to ascertain what others had experienced when production had been switched to China.

First off I do not blame the Chinese people in general for the current situation. While I have not been to china and do not know many Chinese people in general I am certain that by far the majority are hard working honest people that are doing the best they can given the circumstances.

Now I have not had a great deal of experience with the consequences of transferring manufacturing process to China the experience I have have had could only be described as extremely disappointing.

The latest was a fairly expensive piece of precision equipment that was produced by a US based company, who had recently shifted their manufacturing plant to China. The first unit ended up going back to the Australian agent, who are responsible for responsible for all the repairs in Australia, three times and after they replaced all the electronics, sensors, servo motors etcetera several times they conceded that it could not be repaired and replaced it with a new unit. Unfortunately the replacement unit also turned out to be faulty.

Being an electrical and control systems engineer and after consulting the local technical guru I had a pretty good idea what was causing the problem and so asked to be present when the replacement unit was opened. It turned out to be as I suspected and part of the internal cabling loom had been damaged. However, the frightening part was not the damage but rather the reason for the damage. Apparently somebody in China had decided to modify the design of the internal cable loom which resulted in it being damaged during normal operation. The replacement unit is currently having a new cable loom manufactured by had as all the manufactured ones all have the same problem.

While I was there we had a talk with the technical guru about the reliability of the items that were now being manufactured in China and it turned out that about 40% of the new units required some sort of repair and of the last batch 4, including the first unit I received, could not be repaired and were being shipped back to the manufacturers US workshop.

I believe the whole problem stems stems from the current philosophy of many managers and directors and the way they measure success and are awarded bonuses. The problem is the only parameter they use is the short term profitability and how that profi has increased without looking at how the increase was acchieved. It is fairly easy to increase short term profitability in established company bu taking short cuts and reducing standards, but, you run the risk of destroying the companie's reputation for excellence that may have taken decades to develop. The problem is these directors and managers normally take their bonuses and shoot through leaving the long term employees to deal with the mess they have created and the irate customers and share holders.

In the case I referred to above the company in question had held out as long as they could as all their competitors had shifted their manufacturing facilities to China and so had no option but to do likewise if they were to stay competitive on the price front. However, it doesn't take long for a 40% fault per unit ratio to blow all the savings and result in the company hemorrhaging customers at a fatal rate.

Now before you go off at the majority of Chinese this is cause by the greed of a handful of managers, directors and supervisors both in the west and within China. The workers that are actually doing the work usually have no option but to do as they are told particularly in a country like China which has a reputation for corruption, and has little regard to the rights of the individual.

I will close with some simple questions;

Is any manager, director or the like really worth the a bonus or salary that comes in with eight, nine or even ten digits in it and is it possible for somebody that doubles, tripples or quadrouples the proffitability of a company, in the space of a couple of years, truely be acting in the the companies long term interests?

Crash test results for a Chinese manufactured car http://www.autoblog.com/2007/06/22/brilliance-bs6s-adac-crash-test-is-anything-but/

I don't know how many people had a look at the crash test videos of the BS6 that was manufactured in China.

I certainly would never travel in a vehicle that gave this little protection to the passengers however there was something I noticed that worried me even more than the results of the crash tests.

All glass used in motor vehicles is supposed to be either laminated or safety glass and must not shatter into slivers.

The image at right is a snapshot from the side impact test and if you look at the shattered glass it shows elongated segments that look suspiciously like slivers to me.

Now, I may be wrong, but I would doubt a vehicle that had glass that performed like this would never get approval for sale in developed countries like Australia and the USA.

You do realize that Chrysler was just liberated from Dimler by Cerberus, don't you?

Cerberus interestingly is the name of the guardians of the gates of hell.

I'll bet that car would be Up to code in Hell.

milo

There is one way to get the standard of parts coming from China up to scratch.

We get the parts manufactured in Japan then ship the to China for the packaging and labeling!

It's the only way I can ever see that the problems with poor quality will be fixed in anything like a reasonable time frame. Then again given the problems with the language barrier I am not even sure we could rely on China being able to add things like serial or part numbers!

No doubt they would replace the Japanese parts with Chinese fakes and say they were Japanese. Check this out for the latest in breathtaking Chinese intellectual property theft. Is there anyone in China with any talent or do you all got to steal stuff, can't you come up with your own stuff for chrissakes???????? http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070821/ANE01/70821003/1172/emaildailyANE04

I think that it is important to put things in a perspective. The guys who are now in their mid 50's over there were booted out of highschool and college and forced to spread feces on the fields as part of Maos' cultural revolution. Many never finished their formal education. hell, many never survived.

The ones in their 40's and 30's never had any models for professional judgement and engineering or professional conduct codes- just adhere to party line. When the current rennaissance commenced under Deng Xiaoping's Market revolution (socialism with a chinese face) in the early 1990's, they started off with a clean slate. No consumer protections, no nongovernmental agencies, no consensus standards etc. Just raw free markets nurtured by governmental noninterference. then local government nurturing in a way to support local growth. its been a positive feedback forest fire ever since.

Basically they've had less than 20 years to drag themselves up from the denigration of intellect and celebration of ignorance (maos' cultural vandalism of the society) that was inflicted on them and get up to speed with modernity . In less than 20 years, with no indigenous role models.

The problem is that their government is currently about denial and window dressing rather than enabling needed reforms. That's the dilemma. We are living at the peak of western civilisation, we have a rich societal, cultural, family, and individual familirization with the trappings of modernity- legal contracts, quality systems, standards, specifications, manufacturing, inverted delta items, etc. etc. over the last 100 years or so.

They have had less than 20 years to come from poking seeds into dirt with bamboo implements to modernity. Of course they didn't get it right. Thats why I don't/ we shouldn't buy anything from them for a human safety critical application- like tires for example, or cars with no engineeringing behind the crush zones... Until they get a modern culture, with modern institutions and force of law, contracts will always be suborned by corruption, products will fail and people will die.

But its as much their history as anything else.

Good people, new and needs fixed system.

Today's recalls are the voice of darwin telling them to fix their institutions.

milo "been there- loved the people"

1) like i said before u have no right to talk about history in front of a nation of culture standing for more than 5000 years compared with your mentioned hundred year, about the culture intermit, primary reason should be the invasion and colonization of some self-styled "civilized country".

2) for all bad deed u scold us, my reply is first check your self. in life， check your murder case even in the campus; in encomy field, what the reason of bankruptcy of Enron, Andersen under the eye of so-called most strict and credit-focused security market

3) all industry product are developed step by step, like the speed of car, from 50/miles to 300/miles. product of low techqique is not equal with product of bad quality; and product of bad quality is not equal with gun( in above comments some of u only keep saying that the product will kill), truth is that, as u know, most of u are useing Chinese goods, even food, home textiles, appliances, but none of consumer are hurt.

4) we could do more to divert image about our products at last; but we can do nothing upon your inherent prejudice and discrimination based on concept of nation and people

5) i dont know if some of u are Japanes so u say some word about Jap, just want to say, stop satisfying yourselves from your mind and word, pay more attation to the realism

6) after last time i keep silent for a long time, i dont want to waste time arguing on non reason imputation; but silence dont mean acceptance

history in front of a nation of culture standing for more than 5000 years compared with your mentioned hundred year, about the culture

History does show China as a very powerful nation a couple of centuries (+/-) ago.

With recovery in modern history as Milo describes -- it seems that, in self interest, the folks in China would be very interested in overcoming the more recent political handicaps (The last 60 years +) and begin to produce things that will contribute to China's growth and acceptance in the modern world, and ensure a positive economic growth for their future generations.

A 5000 year history will not bring current respect if your current trend is not of pride and interest in a long term positive relationship with the rest of the world. Eventually we (or at least I) will no longer buy any product made in China due to lack of trust.

It seems that simple things that the world expects like -- no lead paint, sharp or loose parts on children's toys, no toxic chemicals in food, (pet or human) a little pride in the things you manufacture is not too much to ask, nor is it too hard to do.

I'm constantly surprised by how quickly we can forget things and lose knowledge. We re-learn sometimes form one project to the next, with teams formed and broken up, cost cutting exercises leading to loss of expertise and spurious management philosophies like 'ageism'. So is it with cultures and countries.

This is not a race thing Michael. There are corrupt people in every country all over the world. No one would argue with that. But it happens that history has determined that the conditions prevailing in China at the moment are conducive to some or a lot of people there believing that the theft of intellectual property is the best way to get rich quickly. It's a philosophy that's officially endorsed by the Chinese government and it's been taken to heart by many many Chinese entrepreneurs who are out to make a quick buck, no matter how, and if that means stealing the ideas and the work of trusting westerners, well that's their problem for being so naieve. I know that Chinese people laugh about the naievity of western people in this matter. I have seen it many times. But this is not going to change by our discussions here. Any change will only be brought about by the Chinese doing what the Japanese did before them. It has taken Toyota more than fifty years to bring itself to the top of the world automobile market and they did it by studying the practices of their competitors and then inventing and designing better ways to do things. They certainly did not do it by stealing. But the Chinese auto manufacturers seem to think that it's perfectly correct to steal the intellectual property of Japanese and western auto companies and get to the top that way. All i am saying is that while you pursue those methods you will not be respected here. That's all. There's no race issue here at all. And by the way, here is what the great Confucius thought of this matter; Do not wish for quick results, nor look for small advantages. If you seek quick results, you will not reach the ultimate goal. If you are led astray by small advantages, you will never accomplish great things. Perhaps Toyota respects the thoughts of the esteemed Cionfucious more than the Chinese do anymore.

thanks for your words at top, put aside the technology difference, about the property, there are :1) imitation and similarity is not stealing. about front just take Japanese product for example, their first radio first car are both learn from USA'S u could research their history to prove that, but nobody accused that, why, little people have "property right" concept at that period; all law is based on what people of given times know and care like u cant say Ford made car popular so that air pollution increase so much, people think that he changed our lives forever so that he is hero then. about latter, Yahoo built search engine first, can u say Google, Kiwi steal sight from Yahoo? no. so pls dont abuse "steal", it depends 2) western emphasize individual in culture, it is the base of your focus on "property right" now, we pay more attention to collectivity in culture, we think it is good to give something to people in need in the past,based on that mind property concept is not too rooted for us, and some compan's inproper magnify that thought. we are aware of that now and for the need to keep in pace with international standard we do prove that not only from mind but also from the law and rules of company, time is needed, right?

Here in The West we hear altogether too much about rights. One man's 'right' is too often his neighbours nuisance. And a lot of our taxes go in support of spurious 'rights'. Since when did anyone have a 'right' to have a baby??

Huh?

My comments were neither disparging nor negative.

Nor did they go off topic into china's human rights recordto match your charges of US impropriety.

Just trying to point out that 20 years is a pretty small window to fully grasp modernity and modern protections and expectations.

I would urge you to be less convinced that all of us are china phobic- we're not.

It is your negative attitude that seems to be coloring your perceptions.

Racial comments are never welcome here.

If there were any facts that I misstated, please feel free to correct them.

Milo "not a xenophobe, imperialist, nor hatemonger, just an engineer with a penchant for facts"

pls dont misunderstand me either, what i replied is not amied at your comments, nor to criticize other countries' morality(that's why i appreciate the above "guest" impresonal word, really i want to talk about how we do to prove our product and image, but u could see some of the commments, they just say your country is bad, corrupt, incurable even" you have a lot faces to lose" like words, so i really dont know in which kind of environment they grown up and be educated and i cant stand their so brutal word, i want to show them one thing: never treat themselves as No1 and other people inferior.

Because more and more businessman , no matter from China or non-china, are eager and greedy to purchase lower price goods, so, bad quality goods would be topping the lists of exprotation from China.

If foreigners respects chinese labor value and would like to pay for chinese labor's efforts and working as equal as westerners get , It is impossible for them to get bad quality always. Only one deal can display quality and businessman's credit.

No such a fool would be cheated time after time.

"If foreigners respects chinese labor value and would like to pay for chinese labor's efforts and working as equal as westerners get , It is impossible for them to get bad quality always."

If only it was a s simple as paying higher western level wages and the quality would then magically improve...

Paying employees more doesn't qualify them to do better.

Employees are paid more when what they do is perceived as better.

The wages are the cart, not the horse. Never put the cart before the horse.

Your point about businessmen looking for the lowest cost products is correct, but the difficulty is that they still expect that low cost product to meet certain minimum standards. In the rush to low cost in China, the "meet the minimum standards" somehow seems to get missed.

I listened to the Chinese ambassador to the US last week at a meeting here in cleveland OHIO and he said 99% of chinese product meets standards. This is a bit of verbal sleight of hand, as that implies that only 1% of any shipment will be defective.And/ or that only 1 shipment out of 100 will be problematic.

In our experience, the ambassadors numbers are off significantly!

Regardless, would you want to be the person(victim) getting the 1% of defective product- Tires, meds, food, etc.?

Economics are part of this problem, but they are not the root cause of it.

milo

I Just added this post to the Outsourcing to China: Yet Another Horror Story which is relevant to this thread so rather than reposting it I have added a link to the post.