Previous in Forum: CleanBooth   Next in Forum: VSD Power Factor
Close

Comments Format:






Change Mode
Close

Subscribe to Discussion:

CR4 allows you to "subscribe" to a discussion
so that you can be notified of new comments to
the discussion via email.

Close

Rating Vote:







Add Vote
13 comments
Rating: Comments: Nested
coolyaar
Power-User

Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 286
Good Answers: 1

Synchronisation

05/24/2017 2:12 AM

a generator is connected to a substation 5km away, the remote substation is connected to the generator by incoming breaker A ,while also connected to utility grid by incoming breaker B. the two breaker needs to synched before throwing in the generator on the substation.now i know that an RTU along with optical cable is required to bring the paramerters ( voltages) of incoming B to the generator synchroniser.but will the delay be small enough to synchronise the generator? is it possible to get the generator synchronized with parameter coming from that far?
Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Tornado
Guru
Technical Fields - Technical Writing - New Member Engineering Fields - Piping Design Engineering - New Member

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Richland, WA, USA
Posts: 21017
Good Answers: 795
#1

Re: synchronisation

05/24/2017 2:37 AM

5/300,000 ≈ 0.0000167 s, which is not much of a delay. Just draw a line 0.36º to the right of vertical on your synchroscope.

__________________
 In vino veritas; in cervisia carmen; in aqua E. coli.
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
coolyaar
Power-User

Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 286
Good Answers: 1
#2
In reply to #1

Re: synchronisation

05/24/2017 3:16 AM

can you please elaborate on the formulas.
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Tornado
Guru
Technical Fields - Technical Writing - New Member Engineering Fields - Piping Design Engineering - New Member

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Richland, WA, USA
Posts: 21017
Good Answers: 795
#3
In reply to #2

Re: synchronisation

05/24/2017 3:31 AM

Hint: Just do elementary arithmetic.

__________________
 In vino veritas; in cervisia carmen; in aqua E. coli.
Register to Reply
jack of all trades
Guru
New Zealand - Member - Kiwi Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 8777
Good Answers: 376
#10
In reply to #3

Re: synchronisation

05/24/2017 4:45 PM

Back in March he stated the substation was 10km apart, now it's 5km.

__________________
 jack of all trades
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
redfred
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Been there, done that. Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 15602
Good Answers: 982
#4

Re: synchronisation

05/24/2017 9:09 AM

I agree with Tornado. A 50 or 60 HZ signal propagating at 80% of the speed of light will have negligible delay (why 80%, I leave that for the student) after only 5 kilometers of travel, regardless of this measurement being in phase angle or absolute time. However except for a question to see if a person can think, why in the world would one care what the delay actually is for synchronization.

Coolyaar before it's too late, change your major to what you are good at. It certainly is not electrical engineering.

__________________
 "Don't disturb my circles." translation of Archimedes last words
Register to Reply
coolyaar
Power-User

Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 286
Good Answers: 1
#5
In reply to #4

Re: synchronisation

05/24/2017 2:18 PM

the delay is a sum of comm.medium delay+ remote RTU switching/processing time+local RTU transfer time to synchronizer + resending time of the close command by synchroniser to breaker A at 5km + remote breaker A operating time. the voltage parameters would have changed by that time.may be you and tornado should work for a bit in field to know what actually is going on in field.
Register to Reply
2
redfred
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Been there, done that. Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 15602
Good Answers: 982
#6
In reply to #5

Re: synchronisation

05/24/2017 2:58 PM

Let me get this straight. You claim to be working in the power distribution industry. You wish to know the delay formulas for synchronization of a generator using buzz word and acronym terminology. You then accuse us of ignorance for not knowing the precise meaning of the buzz words, acronyms or anything about your completely unspecified metrology topology.

I cannot read minds.

Wherever your qualified engineer chooses to make the final connection to these two synchronizing systems is where the synchronous measurement equipment (metrology) should reside. The delays between instrumentation and operators will now not be critical.

Take that to your professor and smoke it.

__________________
 "Don't disturb my circles." translation of Archimedes last words
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Go to Next Good Answer
Brave Sir Robin
Guru
Hobbies - DIY Welding - Wannabeabettawelda

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Annapolis, Maryland
Posts: 7940
Good Answers: 458
#7
In reply to #6

Re: synchronisation

05/24/2017 3:03 PM

Apt advice
Register to Reply
redfred
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Been there, done that. Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 15602
Good Answers: 982
#8
In reply to #7

Re: synchronisation

05/24/2017 3:16 PM

Well said.

<unsubscribes>

__________________
 "Don't disturb my circles." translation of Archimedes last words
Register to Reply
jack of all trades
Guru
New Zealand - Member - Kiwi Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 8777
Good Answers: 376
#9
In reply to #5

Re: synchronisation

05/24/2017 4:43 PM

may be you and tornado should work for a bit in field to know what actually is going on in field.

As opposed to you and your dangerous questions you post on CR4 trying to get us to do your job for you for free?

This is unethical.

__________________
 jack of all trades
Register to Reply
2
Andrew Westman
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 2914
Good Answers: 115
#11
In reply to #5

Re: synchronisation

05/24/2017 9:53 PM

"may be you and tornado should work for a bit in field to know what actually is going on in field."

Mate, YOU are the one here posing the questions, right?

<unsubscribes>
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
No more Good Answers. Go to first "Almost" Good Answer
7anoter4
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: 100 miles North from the World Center
Posts: 879
Good Answers: 42
#12

Re: Synchronisation

05/27/2017 11:11 PM

There are some problems connected with synchronization, of sure. However, it seems there are not

connected with the distance. The fiber optic latency for 5 km it is not more than 25 microseconds.

I appreciate the total delay-for automatic synchronization including breaker closure-will not be more than 150 milliseconds. If we shall follow IEEE Standards C50.12 and C50.13 recommendations the maximum permissible slip is 0.067 Hz so minimum 1/0.067=~15 sec. for 360 degrees and 15/36= 0.41 sec. for 10 degrees-plenty of time. See:

http://www.m2optics.com/blog/bid/70587/Calculating-Optical-Fiber-Latency

https://cdn.selinc.com/assets/Literature/Publications/Technical%20Papers/6459_FundamentalsAdvancements_MT_20120402_Web.pdf?v=20170

__________________
 Julius
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
No more "Almost" Good Answers.
7anoter4
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: 100 miles North from the World Center
Posts: 879
Good Answers: 42
#13
In reply to #12

Re: Synchronisation

05/27/2017 11:39 PM

Sorry, the second link has to be:

https://cdn.selinc.com/assets/Literature/Publications/Technical%20Papers/6459_FundamentalsAdvancements_MT_20120402_Web.pdf?v=20170303-090008

__________________
 Julius
Register to Reply
Register to Reply
Have a Different Question?
13 comments

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

7anoter4 (2); Andrew Westman (1); Brave Sir Robin (1); coolyaar (2); jack of all trades (2); redfred (3); Tornado (2)

Previous in Forum: CleanBooth   Next in Forum: VSD Power Factor

Advertisement

Got Something to Say?
Ask a Question
Start a Discussion

Search this Forum
Electrical Engineering:
Go

CR4 Sections
Aerospace
BioMech & BioMed
Chemical & Material Science
Civil Engineering
Communications & Electronics
Education and Engineering Careers
Electrical Engineering
General Discussion
Instrumentation
Manufacturing
Mechanical Engineering
New Technologies & Research
Software & Programming
Sustainable Engineering
Transportation

Site Directories
Forum Directory
Blog Directory
User Group Directory
RSS Feeds

CR4 Rules of Conduct
CR4 FAQ
Site Glossary

Who's Online (68 right now)
Show Members
Advertisement