Lithium Ion Car Battery

But there is that whole catching on fire thing....

This is what I heard. Low risk of fire/explosion in Lithium Iron Phosphate battery.

No thanks.

you will have no choice. lithium batteries are going to be the staple. one thing that the original post left out was the perceived health risk with lead batteries. The last lead manufacturing plant in the US was closed down the end of 2013 (more so to restrict the bullet manufacturing in the US, but car batteries use a lot of lead). of course that wont stop the Chinese from importing lead but there is also the whole sulfuric acid thing that people are also concerned with.

what made lithium ion batteries hazardous came from the high energy that is stored in such a compact package. the compact package meant that separators were thinner and since they needed to be porous, there was was the internal shorting from whiskers that grew and pierced thru the separator. another issue was the electrolyte liquid was flammable. lots of work has went into making the separators stronger to inhibit whisker growth and the use of non-flammable electrolyte liquid.

soon this too will go away with the manufacturing of a ceramic electrolyte. the ceramic will stop whisker penetration altogether as well as remove the liquid.

are there still going to be issues, sure but as the research continues, the safety becomes built in. right now the batteries are quite safe, consider the millions upon millions of devices that are out there today that use lithium batteries. not many problems as when there is, the media is all over it.

"The last lead manufacturing plant in the US was closed down the end of 2013 (more so to restrict the bullet manufacturing in the US, but car batteries use a lot of lead)."

Perhaps, but with the new administration comes an insane roll-back of environmental, health and safety and business regulations that spell a return of some off-shore industries that had rightly been on the way to the trash heap. Battery manufacture, and bullet casting may well see a resurgence, now.

And if the name Jim Bridenstine doesn't strike fear in you, then you are out of touch or no longer work for NASA.

I don't doubt that advances in technology are coming, but I doubt that I'll ever buy a vehicle with a lithium battery in my lifetime.

i guess maybe i am a bit out of touch, maybe i have never really been in touch. I have been here for 30 yrs. i have seen them come and go. i have seen the good days as well as the bad ones.. i am not exactly sure where we stand now... this guy cannot be any worse for the agency than the dismantling that 8 yrs. of the obama administration did.

I am not going to pretend to know what you will or will not purchase but i can assure you that in the next few years, there will be no other choice in a new automobile. As we all know, prices will fall fast with mass production of any new technology (VCR, Microwave oven, home computer, flat screen television, ect., ect.)

Well, I dealt with GSFC for years but that ended in 1988. Great group of guys there, and all throughout NASA, I'm sure.

One of the things about lead acid batteries that gets overlooked is the high degree of recycling that takes place these days, very little of that makes it into the environment, and the batteries perform well over a wide range of ambient conditions. I do not have the comparison performance data in front of me with respect to the LiFePO4 battery.

Another energy storage battery I have an eye on is something emerging from MIT.

This battery used molten antimony, electrolyte (molten salt of a specific make up), and molten magnesium, with the magnesium floating on top. They have scaled this up to the size of a dinner plate, and are working on one about the diameter of a truck tire. They are sealed units, supposedly with nil off-gassing, and have very many deep cycles capability, high specific power, high energy density, etc.

We will hear more about those in the next decade, but you won't have one in your car ever, most probably. They are for bulk energy storage based on renewable energy.

Porsche is offering Li-ion batteries as an expensive option. Other manufacturers use Li-ion as standard equipment, to the near total exclusion of other battery tech.

Road and Track:

"First off, the advantages: Lithium batteries are lighter, can store a charge longer and can withstand charge/discharge cycles better than a lead-acid battery. The ratio of the maximum safe output current possible to the rated capacity of the battery is much higher in a lithium battery; therefore, you need less "rated amps" to accomplish the same amount of work. In other words, they can dump or absorb huge amounts of current in relation to their rating.

Disadvantages: Their output drops much faster than lead-acid batteries as the temperature goes down. If not properly charged, they're much more susceptible to individual cell failures. Unless they're properly constructed with built-in charge circuitry, we really can't consider them plug-and-play compatible with lead-acid batteries. And last, there's the price, as much as $1700 for an OE application, versus maybe $120 for a top-line Sears DieHard.

Now, aside from the damage to your bank account, all the disadvantages can actually be resolved through thoughtful engineering. Unless you own a McLaren MP4-12C, which comes with a lithium starter battery from the factory, the alternator in your car is not designed to properly charge a lithium battery. Some cars, like Porsche's track-oriented models (GT3, GT2, etc.) can be bought with an optional lithium battery. Designed for track use, or even daily use in warmer climates, the battery—which, at just under 13 lb. is more than 22 lb. lighter than the standard lead-acid unit—is built with a charge converter that takes the output from the alternator and converts it for use in the lithium battery. Special circuitry balances the charge current among all four of its internal cells."

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/videos/a18350/lithium-batteries-not-just-for-hybrids/

So the initial price would put me off right away, then you have the other considerations...when all is said and done, this seems money spent without any noticeable advantage in day to day operation...

.."Because of the nominal 3.2 V output, four cells can be placed in series for a nominal voltage of 12.8 V. This comes close to the nominal voltage of six-cell lead-acid batteries. And, along with the good safety characteristics of LFP batteries, this makes LFP a good potential replacement for lead-acid batteries in many applications such as automotive and solar applications, provided the charging systems are adapted not to damage the LFP cells through excessive charging voltages (beyond 3.6 volts DC per cell while under charge), temperature-based voltage compensation, equalisation attempts or continuous trickle charging. The LFP cells must be at least balanced initially before the pack is assembled and a protection system also needs to be implemented to ensure no cell can be discharged below a voltage of 2.5 V or severe damage will occur in most instances."...

So the battery is outrageously expensive by itself, what do all these peripheral systems and components cost....and does anybody know how to work on them?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery

soon the automotive system will be 42 volts. the increase in voltage is to handle all those fancy electronic gizmos that are becoming standard with our automobiles. the weight of 42 volts worth of lead-acid batteries added to the weight of all those high amp wiring harnesses mean less efficiency on the bottom line.

the automotive industry WILL go with lithium batteries, and after that will be silicon.

Well I'm all for raising the voltage, don't know why it's so low to begin with....48 volts seems a better choice though...

it could be 48 i may be remembering incorrectly... 40 something volts..

i was sitting in on a lecture and the speaker from one of the auto industry leaders put up a chart mentioning the fact. they also said methane was on the radar, and oil has hit its peak and will be trending down into the future which is probably why the Saudi's have dropped the price of oil to ridiculously low prices.. (well that and the fact that the US can compete with the higher price oil) they know once the thirst is gone, so is their wealth. i read somewhere that the US is now producing enough gasoline that it is exporting it despite there hasn't been a new refinery built since the 70's.

"...weight of 42 volts worth of lead-acid batteries...."

The weight of a lead acid isn't necessarily greater for a perspective 42 volt battery in a 42 volt system doing the similar work as a 12 volt battery in a 12 volt system.

"... added to the weight of all those high amp wiring harnesses mean less efficiency on the bottom line..."

Higher voltage wire harnesses would be lower amperage to drive similar processes. Beyond that, even in Backwardo World, changes to the harness aren't something specific to lead acid batteries.

AFAIK, the automakers were into that whole 42/14 volt autobattety system about 2 decades ago....haven't heard much since about it.

Lead acid, even with its weight easily wins the majority of the non-hybrid automotive battery market....far and away. Until non-hybrids are no longer the dominant type of vehicle, lead acid will be the dominant type of battery installed.

I heard about the 42V battery years and years ago - maybe a couple decades? Back then they said it would be a couple years away.

In the auto industry, standards like 12VDC systems are going to be hard to get rid of. There's too many cars running 12VDC and having to retrain mechanics will be costly. Also, there's going to be some mistakes made - mechanic puts a 12V part into a 42V system, etc. There's also a safety issue - it's hard to get shocked by a 12VDC battery, but 42VDC is a different story.

Limiting the risk and severity of people getting shocked was one of the factors (likely the big factor) that kept the voltage from being much higher.

Costs for motors and wiring can be much lower at higher voltage, overall efficiencies can be higher as well.

Generally organizations have rated voltages have considered voltages under around 50V dc as 'safe'. IEC calls less than 60 VDC 'safe'. Osha makes a significant distinction at above/below the 50 VDC level.

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I'm not saying you can't get shocked with 48V dc....but people also get shocked with 12V or less.

GA to you! Good info on why voltages are lower and OSHA thresholds - legal and compliance people look for this.

When I was doing my undergrad, I remember the cost savings with higher voltage DC. I also remember the danger of higher voltage DC too.

Many hybrid and fully electric vehicles are running electrics, both DC and AC, in excess of 300 volts, and voltages over 1000v are beginning to appear.

Many normally powered vehicles have HID headlights fitted which require in excess of 20,000v to start, and around 90v to maintain operation.

These voltages pose very real risks to persons involved in maintenance or accident recovery events.

So, figure one $1700.00 battery is equivalent to 25.5 years worth of $200.00 batteries that last 36 months each?

From an economic standpoint, you are correct. From a performance standpoint, I think we'll see more manufacturers using them. The lower weight and smaller packaging are important for performance cars.

Remember about a decade ago, when GM stopped putting spare tires in their cars. They claimed it was to increase gas mileage, but it's pretty obvious that it's a cost saving measure. No jack, spare tire, wheel, lug wrench, etc. Just a can of fix a flat, or on the more upscale models, a cheap tire inflater. The luxury cars went with run flats, which are very expensive and they ride harder. I've taken the run flats off my cars and put regular tires on them. The only problem is that I don't have a spare, so I need roadside assistance coverage.

Geez! You have me turning green with envy! I have been looking at putting a LiFePo₄ setup on my camping rig for the last 2 years. The worst part is trying to convince my wife that it is worth the initial expense.

I already built 5 x 120W solar panels for a total of 600W (provided everything is perfect). I can add another 300W to that before I have to "up" my charge controller. The (eventual) 900W will run a small air conditioner + the refrigerator (run on propane after dark) + lights...

"LFP is fast becoming the preferred option for recreational vehicle use, I personally have a 600Ah LFP battery in my RV, consisting of a set of 8 x 300Ah prismatic cells in a parallel/series configuration. They are charged via standard LA type solar and mains chargers and protected by my own designed and built over and under voltage systems."

^Would you be willing to share?_{Please, Please, Please!} That would save me having to reinvent the wheel!

I have been getting emails from a company in China that makes Li-PO battery packs and sells them with or without PV panels.

One thing I noticed about run-of-the-mill inverters is that you have to watch the inrush current when starting things like small AC motors, since this will absolutely cause a trip.

AC units are very power intensive as you know, so how does it play with your inverter every time it cycles the compressor?

I guess we will have to wait for the update (a new thread perhaps?).

Just watch the specs on some of that stuff.

I've got a 2KW pure sine wave inverter (continuous, 4KW peak) that should handle the load. I also have some huge honking caps from an old VFD that should help.

The cheap ones at the auto parts store are anything but pure sine wave, and they can never handle high current devices. I have a 1/2 HP electric motor driving a mini-lathe, and my 800 W inverter simply cannot handle starting that motor.

You, however, know a lot better what works where. I salute your efforts. I expect a full report by Monday week.

Many people use inverters that are far too small for the intended load, failing to take into account the starting currents involved. It's often not the inverter that can't handle the load, it's the inability of the battery to maintain output voltage under high load that causes the problems

I use a 2800w continuous, 5600w peak PSW inverter - you can see it behind the battery in the photo - the AC unit is a standard Ibis rooftop one as commonly seen on RVs, and draws about 6 amps when running and around 35 when starting, that's about 700 amps instantaneous from the battery on start.

I originally had a 675Ah Lead acid setup consisting of 3 parallel pairs of 225Ah 6v batteries that weighed in at 185kg and filled the entire box that you see in the photo. Each battery had a listed internal resistance of 1.5 miiliohms so that's 3 milliohms for the series pair - a voltage drop of 2.1v at 700 amps = battery output of just 10.7v.

Further exacerbating this was the fact that the batteries just could not supply the required 700 amps, and so the compressor would labour longer on trying to get up to speed, and the inverter would shut down to save itself.

Even with the pack fully charged, and short 50mm² cables feeding the inverter, the battery voltage would drop close to 10.5v which is considered dead flat for a 12v LA battery.

With the LFP setup I can actually run the AC and the Microwave at the same time (although I prefer not to stress the inverter that much) and the battery voltage never drops below 12.5v even on hot start for the compressor.

It is the ability of LFPs to supply huge currents for long periods with minimal sag that allows the use of high drain appliances.

Great info! And you're using the LFP in your own RV, so you have real world experience.

Thanks for sharing.

This is a safer battery than some of the Li+ varieties.