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Associate

Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 32

Renewable energy when wanted

09/06/2007 3:15 PM

The folly of trying to utilise wind to generate electricity has brought to light the need for a reliable renewable, low investment energy supply.

17 Years ago a system that could supply all the electrical energy for the entire U.K., not when the weather or moon dictates but on demand, was devised. At the time it was investigated by consultants employed by the Dept. of Energy and dismissed as uneconomic.

Using the same principle the system has been greatly simplified and the costs reduced by utilising waste material, rather than the stainless steel specified by the consultants.

No vast civil engineering construction is required. It can be working on a small scale within a few months. Once proved it could eventually be expanded sufficiently to provide all UK's electrical needs when wanted in appropriate quantity.

The energy force is the tide, a predictable reliable force that is dictated by the movement of the sun and moon. In the U.K. we have some of the highest tides in the world and are thus perfectly positioned to make use of them. The normally proposed, barrage offers energy as dictated by the tidal flows and involves vast expenditure before it comes into operation. It would be an all or nothing scheme, both in construction and in the power output, being when the moon dictates not when needed.

This proposed scheme harvests the energy daily putting it into an energy bank from where it is drawn off as needed.

Tyres are not discarded nowadays because they have leaks but merely because they have lost their grip – the tread is worn, they still have the ability to hold air under pressure. There are even now many millions of discarded tyres that present a problem regarding their disposal.

If perhaps 30 tyres of the same size are laid on top of each other to form a cylinder, a wheel is put at each end and locked to a pole through the middle, the whole cylinder can be inflated to form a buoy. We thus have a cheap robust buoy that is not subject to attack from sea water.

If this buoy is allowed to float on tidal water at low tide and is anchored to the sea bed; as the tide rises it will have a strong upward pull. If at high tide the buoy is allowed to rise it can be used to pull a similar but slightly smaller buoy down below the water. On each tide the smaller buoy can be pulled further down. The energy thus stored can be obtained by allowing the smaller buoy to rise whilst driving an electrical generator when wanted.

In its usable state the same principle would operate with many tyre buoys locked together to form huge buoys.

Each generator would accept the energy from perhaps 100 or more huge buoys in sequence.

Having investigated this possibility for the past 17 years I believe that this could well be the answer to our present renewable energy problem.

It is somewhat more complex than briefly explained here but the initial start can be made now. The cost is fractional compared to any other renewable power system capable of providing energy when wanted, that can be expanded as needed.

The parts required to capture and store the energy are as follows:-

Secure sea anchors.

Redundant Tyres.

Strong ropes, chain or wires .

Pulleys.

Control gear.

Generators.

The main construction work of constructing the buoys can be done anywhere utilising a waste product. As no special skill is needed, it seems appropriate that this could utilise the time of prisoners to advantage, thus solving another problem and giving them the ability to do something of benefit to the community.

It is calculated that if this scheme was used in the Bristol Channel over an area of 15 square miles the resulting electrical energy produced in the year would be more than that provided by Sizewell B nuclear power station

The Bristol Channel alone is about 1,000 square miles.

Having devised the system and made several models to prove the theory and iron out numerous problems, I am frustrated that the scheme is just waiting for someone to put it to use.

I offer this proposition as a discussion as to the feasibility of ever getting it off the ground.

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Guru

Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 1602
Good Answers: 19
#1

Re: Renewable energy when wanted

09/06/2007 7:45 PM

Was it P.T. Barnum who said "A seeker is born every minute . . . "? Where do I send my money, I want to invest now!!!

Seriously, until some large scale models are built and demonstrated before the engineering world for serious review, this has a lot of similarity to the perpetual motion "proposals" that appear, dissappear and reappear on this site. You need to give some hard financial numbers that can be subject to independant verification.

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Power-User

Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 157
Good Answers: 1
#2
In reply to #1

Re: Renewable energy when wanted

09/07/2007 12:43 AM

I am a long way from the UK and worse than that, a long way from any tidal waters. You suggested this proposal was another of the perpetual motion scemes that keep popping up. It seems to me that the only thing perpetual is the rise and fall of the tide. Along with tidal action ,maybe wave action to turn a generator could be looked into. The biggest reason this will never fly is, you don't have to buy petrol to keep it running. Even though governments say they are in favor of doing everything to reduce our dependency on oil ,big oil is not. AND BIG OIL WILL WIN. I'm not for big oil but they are in control wheather we like it or not. What big oil doesn't take into consideration is when the oil is gone SO ARE THEY!

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Anonymous Poster
#3

Re: Renewable energy when wanted

09/07/2007 1:42 AM

Dear Contributor,

Probably by now fourty years ago I looked into the research that was done at the University of Edinbourgh who had spent considerable amount of time and expenses on means of capturing wave power. After myself spending a lot of time and of course money , my attention simply had to be directed to more immediate activity.

By your research and ingenuity you have bought this to reality . Its simplicity does attract me. My approaches were quite different but I do agree totally with you that the use of the marine environment is probably the cleanest and the one that offers the most by way of storage . The latter is essential in order to overcome the lack of continuity of both wind and solar energy . (I have read about but have not yet seen technical details of a new wave system development which is being tested in Western Australia. This, by all accounts, seems to, also, overcome the irregularity of waves . It does appear to be reliant on surface energy capture and this could be a negative).

I will keep a sharp look out for further comments and eventually see if my two pence worth can help you and the many contributors along,

Best Regards , consistency and courage !

Labor Omnia Vincit

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Active Contributor

Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 24
#4
In reply to #3

Re: Renewable energy when wanted

09/07/2007 4:21 AM

Look up this...

Pelamis, its working, being made in Scotland, exported to Portugal and other places, what is the problem with it?

The biggest problem we have is greed, manifested by vested interests like oil companies.

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Associate

Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 32
#6
In reply to #3

Re: Renewable energy when wanted

09/08/2007 7:47 AM

Thanks for your comment on renewable energy when wanted.

Do I suspect that you know Cheltenham? Guest.

Most people seem to consider the proposition I put forward as cranky. However if a rejected product that has no more use than burning, can be converted into a catalyst to convert unused energy into what is needed, it seems to be worthwhile and if this can be called on when needed it provides just what is wanted.

If you have any contacts that can be used to influence the powers that be, please use them or give me a lead.

There seems to be several comments on the discussion that muddle wave power with tidal power. This is Tidal - precisely predictable and (as far as humans are conserned) everlasting.

Regards, Dick Lucy

01531-67- 209

richard@hamsterbaskets.co.uk

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Guru

Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 1602
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#8
In reply to #6

Re: Renewable energy when wanted

09/09/2007 10:56 PM

Dick,

I tried to reply last week, but my computer locked up and it didn't get sent.

I give you a small point of credibility for using your name. However, I still consider tidal energy as somewhat a "cranky" proposition.

Build a small (1-5 KW output) tidal energy system, operate it for 6 to 12 months, and report the results and numbers. Then you will have credibility with the engineering crowd.

Ried

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Guru

Join Date: Jul 2007
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#5

Re: Renewable energy when wanted

09/07/2007 11:52 AM

Canada is looking at something like this for the Bay of Fundy.

Your comment about wind power is, however, a little harsh. Go to Altamont Pass above San Francisco.

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Guru

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 548
#7

Re: Renewable energy when wanted

09/08/2007 5:12 PM

even though not very inovative ,its great to impliment ,waste tyres , plastics put to use .tides are influenced by sun & moon , are predictable .here proposed idea is to utlise small buoy that is forced inside water due to larger buoy pulling up through canti liver, travelling distance & depth can be calculated , but with greater depths water pressure will have negetive force just reducing efficiency , can such energy be stored in springs or directly in batteries through generators or other techniques if any,as far as waste products use are concerned its okay , but to go for complex designing it will be expensive proposition . this is not a perpetual motion , this is powered by sun , moon , even if it is so then why not wind powered mills considered so that use flowing winds or hydro powered generators that use gavity to pull water weight to run turbines .

we do not have to worry for oil companies ,they will still have huge bussiness left , by the time such projects are implimented to large scale they may become part of such projects . forget powering whole nation , even if such projects atleast power 60% of total energy consumed , it will make huge difference to economics

it is wise if you impliment this proposal to a smaller scale or creat prototype , government bodies can get due attaintion

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Associate

Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 32
#9

Re: Renewable energy when wanted

09/10/2007 1:06 PM

The buoys already in production are WAVE related - not providing constant energy when wanted.

When the wind stops so do they.

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Guru
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#10
In reply to #9

Re: Renewable energy when wanted

09/19/2007 10:44 AM

I have an alternative view on the subject: why do we do all the difficult constructions to have elctricity when we want if we could harvest energy, transform it in and easy to store form and use this in the first place.

The form is heat: easy to store and every household needs it.

Easy to harvest: solar panels can directly harvest it in high volumes.

But the energy from wind and tides could also be transferred into heat and used when we need it.

We create very complex systems to harvest wind power and to feed it on the grid, loosing a decent amount of it while we still burn oil to heat our house. Oil we really could use to power vehicles. Which we can't easely replace by other energy carriers.

We do make it way to complex and expensive.

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Associate

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#11
In reply to #10

Re: Renewable energy when wanted

09/19/2007 11:39 AM

In reply to Gwen, I absolutely agree with you.

What I have devised could not be simpler to understand yet it provides what is wanted. Even down to using wasted materials.

If this was taken on, the oil and gas used to generate electrical power, could be used for many other purposes where only oil can deliver - mostly transport.

My proposition could eventually have the UK's electrical needs done and dusted for all time.

The silly thing is that nobody with any influence will even listen. Complicated engineering that they cannot understand is adulated - nuclear energy - vast cost in construction and even more on closing down yet completely incomprehensible to most of us - especially politicians.

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Associate

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#12

Re: Renewable energy when wanted

09/24/2007 5:18 AM

Having recalculated the ammount of energy that can be obtained, I have to admit that the figures I quoted regarding a 15 square mile and the entire Bristol Channel were incorrect. New verified figures make somewhat dismal results.

Only 5% of the UK's energy can be obtained using the entire Bristol Channel. The ability to store energy in this way is still appropriate but the effort would not be worthwhile for the initial extraction.

My apologies to anyone who took interest.

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Guru

Join Date: Dec 2005
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#13
In reply to #12

Re: Renewable energy when wanted

09/24/2007 9:34 AM

Thanks for the information. I appreciate your honesty in reporting the bad news, we need more of that in looking for solutions to the world's problems. Don't stop looking for solutions, but also be a bit cynical in review and analysis of the results. It is better to try to sort out these sort of problems on paper before making large investments of labor, materials and money.

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Anonymous Poster (1); Energy Hunter (4); Gwen.Stouthuysen (1); hilltopper (1); patrick.e (1); Ried (3); TVP45 (1); vikas (1)

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