Advice On My Next New Truck

The Toyota Tundra gets a lot of recommendations, and holds its value well....second would be a GMC diesel for me, and third a plain jane Ford F 150...I've been shopping around for something to haul stuff in, but I prefer a van, a bare bones utility van....I've had a couple of GMC Safari vans, and I loved them....I like the security and cover of a van, keeps the rain off and you don't have to always be aware of what's in the back, and worry about stuff flying out...plus you can carry a 14' extension ladder on the roof....but this is a subjective choice and everybody has their own particular preferences....If insurance wasn't so expensive, and I had a garage that big, I'd probably have one of each...but nearly $100 a month for something that just sits there most of the time, drives me crazy....I'm thinking about a Toyota Sienna, they say you can fit a 4' x 8' sheet of plywood flat in the back...

Hi Solar,

I really, really like the Tundra, but they don't make a regular cab with a long bed anymore. The Double cab with the 8.1' bed is just too long for both my driveway and to drive/maneuver.

I thought about a cargo van, but I stack stuff high, so the limitations are too much for me.

I had an Odyssey minivan years ago that took a beating. We put a refrigerator in the back once! I am doing more heavy duty type stuff and the minivan won't handle the materials.

Good ideas. I appreciate your advice.

Thank you.

Nothing technical, just my opinion.

I drove Chevys for years, until I got my first Ford. I liked them fine. That was long enough ago that I did all my own mechanic work. Three, a '76 C10 and a '78 K10 bought new and '85 K5. I drove the 4x4's all over Arizona.

I bought my son a 2004 Ram 1500 crew cab and it needed brakes and other work, AC crapped out and it was generally not very high quality. (IMHO)

I'm now driving a 2001 F-150 with 208,000 miles on it. I've put 160,000 of those miles on it and I would jump in it right now and drive it anywhere in the USA. Everything still functions as it did when I got it. I've (mechanic) put a new intake manifold on it at 100,000 along with new plug/coils. Last year, I had to have the entire AC system installed, but I think I got screwed by an incompetent mechanic's shop in that case. Oil changes, tires and brake pads and that's it. After 14 years, I've spent maybe $5-6,000.00 in maintenance.

Now, you won't get an aluminum body on a Ford, unless you buy a newer one. 2015 or newer. I'd stay away from them due to body shop inexperience with Al bodies, and cost.

I wouldn't overlook the Toyota, as Toyota is a reliable brand.

Bottom line, if you're happy with the truck and the deal, and you service it when it needs it, the make isn't that important.

Hi Lyn,

I've had a lot of complaints from the earlier Ram trucks. I took a trade in on a 2005 with 167K and it was ready for the junk yard! I was told that the new ones are much better and some claim they're on par with the GM and Ford trucks. I just drove a 2015 GMC with 62K and it drove really well, but it also had the Z71 with monotube shocks. I drove a 2015 Ram with 38K and I didn't like the feel of the front end - felt like the shocks were going bad. The GMC also felt like it was more durable and the materials were better quality. For instance, both have leather seats, but the Ram was showing through on the seat back (as you slide in and out of the truck).

I'll probably put less than 3K miles per year on the truck, so I don't think it'll make much difference which one I buy.

I have to buy a new one, so I'll get stuck with the aluminum body Ford. I don't have confidence in having and aluminum bed, so I'm pretty sure I'll go with either the GM or Ram.

Thanks for the advice.

Ford has sold 2.49 million aluminum truck since introduction and from my research and following the industry the aluminum box has not appeared to be a negative with the exception of the staged GM ad dropping what looked like a REGULAR tool box into a Ford PU Box. However the aluminum body has not been a home run for Ford either. Maybe when gas hits $ 5.00 per gal.

HERE is an interesting video on repairing Ford's aluminum truck body.

I'm not a big fan of Consumer Reports but this sounds like a pretty fair assessment to me. At the least I would research the local repair facilities and query my insurance agent before purchasing an aluminum body vehicle.

Hooker

Back when Ford announced their aluminum body for trucks, I spoke to a few of my friends in the body repair business. They told me that they've had the capability to repair aluminum panels for years. Here are things they told me.

1. Aluminum must be kept away from steel repair work - no contamination!

2. Different supplies must be kept for steel vs aluminum

3. Different supplies are needed for aluminum (primer and paint, etc).

4. Different techniques are required.

They all told me that they charge extra for aluminum repair work, so repairing a new F150 will be more than a steel body truck.

A 700lb reduction in weight is nothing to sneeze at! The lighter weight does make the truck more lively and responsive. Again, my concern is durability and being able to resell it if the bed is severely damaged.

Yeah, I understand your listing. But I don't get #1. In the aircraft mod and repair business we dealt with aluminum and steel on a daily basis. Not to mention composites, graphite, magnesium and others. They all have their own fabrication requirements and needs but I'm not aware of any special "contamination" issues.

Hooker

Perhaps someone is confusing corrosion resistant (SS) steel with Al. SS can be contaminated by the iron in steel. Even laying a piece of SS on a table where steel has been, or using a steel wire brush will corrode SS.

I worked with all three in aerospace and SS was the only one needing segregation from iron.

Certainly they can't be welded the same way, etc.

Maybe that's just to keep the uninitiated (not trained) from trying to use the same techniques. They are different animals.

Good point and, of course, you're right. I just didn't get that out of that list. Ah, well.

Hooker

From the Alumeco website on aluminum corrosion:

Galvanic corrosion: Occurs when the aluminium comes into contact with more noble metals, such as iron.

(Underlining by me.)

What's also critical is which aluminum alloy gets used. Pure aluminum is typically not used.

Not without water.

True, but truck beds, helicopter skins and aluminum hulled boats frequently contact with water.

Yes but, we are not talking about permanent, dissimilar metal fasteners, just incidental contact.

If I have an anvil in my Al truck bed and it rains, so what? Especially if the paint is not compromised.

Are we getting to technical?

I am precisely talking about permanent, dissimilar fasteners. Autobroker's reply #38 (which started this branch) is about body repair of aluminum car parts. I earlier asked what was the metal used to fasten the a light on a helicopter. I included boats to make the point that certain aluminum alloys are regularly used in salt water.

We have gone off topic. I know you understand galvanic corrosion and the electromotive series.

Like I said, the tech's doing to do what he was trained to do.

But that happens across all metals capable of conducting electricity and the reason that aluminum, magnesium or zinc are used as sacrificial anodes depending on the application.

I think you're correct about this. I remember reading that the galvanic corrosion will cause paint failures, thus the separation of the two materials is very important for auto bodywork.

I'll see if I can find the article.

Here's an article about keeping steel contamination away from aluminum. http://www.repairerdrivennews.com/2016/02/17/expert-take-corrosion-seriously-in-your-shop-as-aluminum-grows-in-cars/

If we were discussing galvanic corrosion of something more critical the bumper bolts used on the wrong bumpers, I'd take exception to much of what was presented in that piece, and I think Hooker would agree.

But my long term experience with Aluminum, corrosion resistant steel, mild steel and exotic metals is not related to automotive applications.

I do agree that Al oxidizes almost immediately after exposure to air and surface treatments and oxidation control are critical to adhesion of paints and adhesives.

Bottom line, the tech is going to do what he is trained to do.

That article was just something I pulled up today. A few years ago, I read something about separating steel from aluminum work to keep the aluminum from oxidizing under the paint. I'll see if I can dig it up.

Yes, aluminum oxidizes almost immediately to a single molecule thick layer of AL2O3. The crystaline form is known as carborundum. If the oxide bonded at all to metallic aluminum it would be far more impervious.

Yeah, that article doesn't much resemble my experience with aluminum in the aircraft world.

We wouldn't worry much about steel contamination because there are a series of processes used to prep alum for paint. This would include alodine which essentially de-oxidizes and neutralizes the surface for primer (mostly zinc chromate in my day) and then paint. In fact the whole process is described in Mil-Spec procedures for what I did, including mandating Mil-Specd paint.

That does not mean that we didn't worry about various types of corrosion. A single ding by a rock, virtually invisible to the eye, could, and often did, set up the opportunity for corrosion under all the protective layers. Inspection for corrosion is rigorous in today's aircraft environment. I can't imagine ground vehicles being held to the same standards.

And, by the way, I've heard they're dealing with extreme corrosion problems on the new littoral class of Navy ships. They seriously underestimated the maintenance requirements of the aluminum hulls.

Hooker

Those ships are a floating disaster.

Here's the 3M article on contamination of aluminum.

Galvanic corrosion occurs when two dissimilar substrates, such as aluminum and steel, come into contact. Each substrate has a natural electrical charge. The substrate with the higher electrical charge (aluminum) will always start “donating” electrons to the lower-activity substrate (steel) to achieve a natural balance. This results in the aluminum corroding and falling apart over time – leading to blistering and other paint failures in aluminum vehicle repair.

You can help prevent galvanic corrosion by ensuring all substrates are properly cleaned before coatings are applied.

Here's what the aluminum body work manual says:

Technical Tip: Even if you completely segregate your steel and aluminum repairs, it’s unlikely that you can achieve total separation. It is vital to examine your overall shop hygiene. Establish regular cleaning protocols to maintain shop cleanliness, especially for dust – you should always assume that some dust particles will inevitably settle on dissimilar panels. Self-generated vacuum tools can also be used to keep the dust particles to a minimum while keeping equipment spends down. Never use the same tools or abrasives for both steel and aluminum repairs, and clean your tools regularly. Incorporate procedures for cleaning vehicle panels immediately before applying any coatings.

I have a 2014 Chevy 1500 2WT work truck, standard cab, long bed, 5.3L V8. It has zero frills except for the plastic bed liner and the towing package (but no trailer brake controller which I later added myself). it's rated to tow 10.5k lbs.

Chevy trucks can't get any cheaper if you have a local dealer that stocks the work trucks. $27k sticker price and I love it. I wouldn't buy a Ram because of their lousy service reputation and Ford dealers couldn't match the price of the Chevy at the time, not to mention that I wouldn't consider an aluminum bed.

Hooker

Great advice.

I'm looking at the Chevy/GMC very closely, though the Ram is less expensive and I don't put many miles on my trucks.

I have a 2015 F-150 and I absolutely love it. While mine is a super crew (short box) the long bed will be just as good. Mine has a 305 (5ltr) V-8; a little less gas mileage and a lot more power. If you tow you will be extremely pleased with the tow package. As for the bed get a Weathertech semi-hard flexible liner. Extra special value is the standard shift on the fly for 3 modes of engine - transmission mapping and automatic to manual to automatic shifting.

Thanks for the advice!

I drove a 2017 F 150 Crew Cab with the 3.5 Ecoboost and I was very impressed. The lighter weight from the aluminum was evident and the truck handled well and had awesome power!

My biggest concern is that I've seen the Chevy ads where they slam the Ford aluminum bed (gets cut and dented easily). I've worked with rolled/stamped aluminum in the past and I've noticed that it does dent and slice easily. The Weathertech liner looks like a good idea, but I noticed that the sides aren't protected. Maybe it's because the sides are less likely to be damaged, but I do tie stuff down tightly and I'm concerned about damaging the inside of the bed.

The aluminum bed is the only reason I've placed the Ford low on my list.

Aircraft also have aluminum skin, for obvious weight reasons. But designers go to great pains to isolate the skin from any possible incursion by cargo. You certainly wouldn't want a fumble fingered minimum wage baggage/cargo handler to even have half a chance to damage something.

To me, pickups are meant to be used and abused. Bare aluminum cargo areas make no sense to me.

Hooker <-- Chinook flight engineer (job is also a load master)

This is why I'm wondering why Ford didn't make the bed out of steel. Or at least the inner bed. Aluminum on the outside of the bed is fine with me. With an aluminum inner bed, I'll constantly worry about a cinder block or my miter saw falling in the bed and puncture/slice/cut a hole or even put a large dent, which isn't acceptable to me.

My Ford has a full bed liner. You can probably get one too.

I do agree that an aluminum inner bed is a non-starter, as Chevy has demonstrated.

I had a drop in liner in my GMC (over the rail type) and I installed those big chrome hook tie downs in each corner (in the pockets). I was driving on Hwy 138 (Pearblossom highway) a few years ago in a strong wind. I heard a horrible noise and saw the bed liner get ripped from the truck. I needed to get to where I was going, so I continued with the idea that I'd come back an pick up my bed liner later that evening. When I drove back, I looked for the liner, but I couldn't find it. There was a chain link fence about 100 feet from the road and no bed liner. My guess is that it caught wind and flew over the fence.

I never replaced the bed liner, though I still have the plastic piece on the inside of my tailgate!

The consensus here seems to be NO for an aluminum inner bed.

Or, some redneck saw it and scored a "new" bed liner for his beater truck.

Any more, I fit the description in your next post of the pickup owner who uses it like a car.

I'm torn between buying a near new crew cab pickup, or a SUV, which would be much more practical for this old man. After the new tax year, I'll buy something.

Like I said, I drove Chevys for years and loved them too.

I think you're right! Someone is probably driving around town with a 2007 GMC bedliner in a 1987 F 150!

I leased two 2017 Tacoma Double Cab 4X4's last year in July. They are awesome trucks! I used both as commuter vehicles (90 mile round trip per day). When I moved close to my office last October, both trucks sat most of the time, so I transferred the leases to a couple friends. Due to the small bed size, I used them as cars most of the time. Though, when I was moving, I loaded the beds - it was convenient, but they could only hold about 1/2 of what my long bed does.

I worked for several years in and around Detroit as an advanced manufacturing consultant. I'm willing to bet that the marketers managed to convince Ford management that an ALL aluminum body (and ensuing claims of more power and lower gas mileage) was the ideal ticket to continue the F-150's truck sales leadership into the future.

Unfortunately I don't think the marketers drive the trucks or have a clue about the everyday usage of working trucks. They're marketing to the guy who thinks a 4WD truck is a macho symbol for the weekend visits to Lowes.

I like one of the current insurance company ads that show a cattleman explaining how difficult it is to convince an insurance company that the big dent in the side of his truck was caused by a fight between two big bulls dukeing it out. I'd rather not have an aluminum truck in that case though I'm sure there would be some damage with a steel body too.

Just my opinion.

Hooker

I'll take a dent over a slice in the side of my truck.

I think the problem with the truck market is that most people who buy them don't use them as a truck - like hauling stuff home from the Home Depot or Costco!

Here in So Cal, we don't really need 4X4's, unless you're an avid skier/snowboarder or you like off-roading. That's about 5% of the 4X4's!

That's why I bought a 2 wheel drive. I have zero interest in taking my truck off the pavement. And, thankfully, it does have an Eaton locker rear end.

Hooker

A long bed regular cab isn't good for off-roading. Wheelbase is way too long! I like the locking rear diff!

Yes sir. That locker kept me from being stuck in my icy gravel driveway on more than one occasion.

Icy gravel driveway, sand at the beach, muddy dirt road! It's a great diff!

Just to play devil's advocate...

The one advantage I see an aluminum vehicle has over a steel vehicle is chipped paint will not lead to rust rot.

Now how this aspect can become useful in a pickup truck bed eludes me.

I wonder, if an Amphicar was made from aluminum would they be common today?

Play away!!

I can see you've never been involved in aluminum corrosion mitigation. Especially around a salt water environment.

I once crewed a CH-47 at Langley Research Center, which is literally surrounded by salt water. This helicopter was coated by Imron paint, probably the toughest polyurethane enamel paint ever created, at least at the time. While checking out the right side nav light that had stopped operating I found that the reason the light wasn't working was that there was no aluminum left for about 2" around the light fixture. Only that very tough paint was holding the fixture in place and there was no electrical ground path left.

And I've seem large areas of aluminum skin replacement on aircraft even away from salt water that had corroded patches and miscellaneous pitting under the paint such that large skin panels had to be replaced.

Don't even start to think that aluminum is a panacea for corrosion issues on painted vehicles.

Hooker

You're right. Salt water and road salt are not a concern anywhere near Long Island, New York.

You say a tough polyurethane paint, designed to keep environmental fluids off of metal surfaces was still strong enough to hold this fixture in place but salt water corrosion had to be the culprit. Did you happen to notice if an iron fastener previously secured the fixture?

I probably should have mentioned that the area around the nav light was not empty. The aluminum (probably 1/16" thick) had been converted to aluminum oxide which manifested as dust that fell away when the paint skin was breached.

The vast majority of aircraft fasteners are cadmium plated high tensile strength steel and I believe the fixture was zinc plated with a rubber gasket between it and the skin. The fixture ground wire was connected to a grounding stud pressed in the metal skin. Also all this was on a hinged door that had a braided ground strap from the door to the main structure of the helicopter. I mention all this because I have no doubt that part of the issue may have been caused by electron migration due to eddy currents or other electrical action.

And this discussion brings to mind another incident. My brother was a career welding engineer at GM. After he retired he went to work for an automotive contractor in Detroit. They were contracted by GM to do some steel body corrosion studies. Long story short, they found in a typical primed and painted steel body panel that corrosion from a stone nick could actually manifest quite a distance away from the damage area. Sometimes a foot or more away and be hidden under the paint. The gist of the study showed that there were electrical (electron) current issues that needed to be addressed as much as, if not more, than just coating improvements. I don't know if there were follow on studies. I just happened to be working with the same contractor at the time of the study.

Hooker

Imron! I remember that stuff. Wayyyyy back in high school, I remember someone used Imron to paint their car. That stuff is very tough and very hard to sand!

All NASA aircraft, as far as I know, were, and maybe still are painted with Imron.

And, as recent as the late 90's, I know that Giddings & Lewis used it on their machine tools. It's perfect for that kind of use, though it's considered a carcinogen during application.

Was the demise of the Amphicar due to rust, mechanical problems or lack of demand?

I saw a really cool show on the Amphicar by Huell Howser (PBS here in LA).

Maybe a simple solution that I did for all my pickups was a sheet of 1/2 plywood in the back mostly to stop cargo from sliding especially when the box liners came into vogue. I must caution to lift it regularly as it will rot out the top of the steel ribs in the box. I still prefer the anti corrosion factor of aluminum, that can destroy a trucks value.

Sounds like a great idea, but how do you hold the plywood down? It gets windy here - I've had a bed liner torn from the bed of my truck.

I haul 6'-8' long 300#-700# eccentrically shape items, often 2 or 3 at time, regularly in mine. (Check out www.omichael.com for reference.) Ford equips it with 8 tie-downs (2 low & 2 high on each side). The only (scratch) damage is from a 200# rock crystal that my wife failed to tie down and then proceeded to jam on the brakes at 70mph. Said rock slid from the tailgate to the cab and left a very shallow dent and 3" scratch in the bed 4" up from the bed liner at the cab wall. About Ford's handling with heavy load: Ford uses an ECU controlled micro braking anti-sway system making a 1000# bed load or towing 3-ton with your typical trailer ball hitch (without levelers) rock solid. FYI: I have put 45,000 miles on it in 2 years and but for a rockstar on the windshield I got today everything including all mechanical performances, is showroom spec. Unless you're hauling Bobcat loaded gravel or rocks consider the Chevy "anti" ads BS.

Thanks for the real world advice! The F150 is still the number one selling vehicle in the US, so maybe the Chevy ad's are not telling the true story?

The people who have purchased F150 Aluminum body trucks from me have been happy, though I did have one who was very upset that his bed was sliced open. He's does a lot of heavy construction work and something sliced the bed open. He was not happy about it.

Have you considered buying a cab chassis and putting your choice of service body on it .?

Hi Tony,

I thought about it, but I know that we're charged higher DMV fees for 3/4 or 1 ton trucks. I do like the idea of all the doors and the ladder rack.

If I did a cab and chassis w/service body, I'd get an Isuzu NPR. I ordered one for a client about 6 months ago and it's an impressive truck.

A few years ago, I ordered one of these from Royal, except his was a dually, so had flared out fenders. Great looking, but my client told me it wasn't well made and many of the welds broke.

Here's what it looked like.

I have a 2015 F-150. It has performed it's car function flawlessly. I haven't used it as a truck yet. I got the newer Ford hoping it will last longer than the previous steel one did. Our 2000 F-150 is returning to the earth. Literally rusting apart with only 150k miles on it. This one has to last longer being aluminum. I do have a bed liner in it.

Good point and like I said 2.49 million sold and put to work with hardly a complaint so I in good faith do not understand someone saying no faith in aluminum body also I have seen comparison on repairs being equal or lower. Maybe the GM negative add worked like a political ad? On my cars I have rust control done annually for reduced costs. Not needed with aluminum unless I am missing something like wiring protection.

Maybe.

I have a 2001 whose paint and body look as good as the day it rolled out into the sunlight. I live in Az.

Only time will tell if galvanic corrosion will eat the body off the chassis of those new Fords with salted streets and water. My bet is these bodies will rot in that environment.

Thanks Lyn I live in Ontario Canada with tons of road salt and other electrolyte chemicals that eat up transport wiring with a voracious appetite. With over 3 years of experience corrosion of any sort has not been reported on these vehicle. I envy you in Arizona the steel lasts a long time if not forever however the paint takes a beating. I have purchased Arizona and New Mexico vehicles and found 5-6 layers of paint when we went to refinish them. Here we use a product called Krown Rust Protection and it is very good on steel maybe even on aluminum. It sure helps in the wiring department.

Do your research before applying any other overcoats on those aluminum bodies. As I described the problem with Imron paint on a helicopter you risk hiding a problem beyond easy repair.

Hooker

Mine has the factory paint job. It was parked in a parking garage most of the time, when I worked. Now it's in the shade unless I'm driving it.

Good move saved a few paint jobs to hide fading by sunlight.

Here in the LA Basin, the air quality can get pretty bad. When I moved from Ventura County to LA County, I noticed the difference (physically). After a few years, the paint on my cars started to go. The clear coat started to go and I don't think temperature or sunlight had much to do with it, because it wasn't that much different, so my only guess is the air pollution.

Ford engineers went to great lengths to inhibit galvanic corrosion, which can occur when steel (and some other metals) comes into contact with aluminum along with moisture. Specially coated bolts, clips and isolated body mounts prevent steel and aluminum from coming into contact.”

Why you may want to undercoat your aluminum F-150 | Torque News

Pros and Cons of Aluminum Cars and Trucks - Consumer Reports

I wonder if anyone has thought of using zinc sacrificial anodes on those aluminum bodies. I did a quick internet search but didn't find anything.

Changing the anode on my rv water heater annually is certainly a good insurance policy. Why not a truck?

Hooker