Chinese RMB goes high, good things or not?

in the Renminbi goes up, chinese labor costs more, they export less, we keep more jobs here.

Think what happens when US workers and chinese workers get the same wages..

If chinese worker would has as same as us worker wages there would not be enough energy to ooffer us.in the world.

there are still more chinese workers entry canada for their job. but only a little canada come to china to get work.

there are still more chinese workers entry canada for their job. but only a little canada come to china to get work.

Of course! your working conditions are appalling. Our Production superintendent quit rather than go back after working over there for a year. Another engineer returned after only two months saying the same thing. Yuck! And they were still paid in domestic currency so wage was not an issue. I have also worked with chinese who came over here and they also say working conditions - in addition to human rights issues - has long way to come before coming close to North American or European standards.

Recently at a domestic job site owned by an asian company I had a discussion with some of the Korean engineers. They were amazed by our safety policies.

They were willing to accept 1 lost time accident per tool (semiconductor). With a 160 tool set over 9 months! I could not imagine.

At a domestic site domestically owned in Oregon, the company shut down at lunch for 3 hours and catered to about 1500 full time and contract employees to recognize 1,000,000 injury free hours. Prime rib at that!

Yeah there is a serious disparity in the work environs.

cr3

The sites in the U.S. safety has many benefits. one being lower insurance cost due to lower accident incidents, thus lowering the cost of liablity to the manufacturer.

Maybe we should export some of our attorneys to china and korea to offset this.

I have two comments; the first is in response to CN - what we are observing is a natural process of equalization. As the multiple markets interact, exchange product and currency, there should be a trend toward an equalization, both in currency and in standard of living. It is perhaps ironic that, in spite of the "liberals" in the western world who would have preferred to bring the standard of living of the third world "up" through their benevolence, it is apparently being done through the free market system (at least as long as governments don't interfere).

the second comment would be an observation (and a weary shake of the head) that it is extremely ironic that a government established as "socialist" and "the people's republic" is now one of the worst offenders of working conditions and standard of living.

I have a great admiration of the chinese peoples' ability to endure.

But, I'm not sure there is anything about the chinese government that is worthy of admiration.

T0-3:

your view is side, Some staffs are work very comfortable with excellent salary in china than in your country. thats why your some poor western guys come to China for gold. and other workers work very hard, but get little wages, like me. I work every day for nearly 19 hours only be paid less than 3usd(equivalent). Im very tired and hope to do nothing after getting off. I hvnt gone to cinema for ages, even forget whatthe movies look like. your condition may be good enough, but its not belong to me. so I wouldnt admire that.

I wish I could experience such condition for half or one year, if would have a chance. Im afraid even if I would work there, I would havnt enough time to have a rest.

btw, whats your job? I guess your friends must work in a factory or on mine open air or likewise. thet may contact many peasants labours on a site. they work even more hard decimal times than me. Thats why our chinese labours are all industrious and kind and welcome to work in the world.

The jobsites I was referring to were Samsung and Intel, respectively.

work smart, not hard. All that time at work interferes with gaining extra skills.

What work do you do?

To my great embarrassment, I do only some very low level design and management job which very most chinese works can do very well, like design 1kw phase shift bridge ZVS control switch power with power factor correction, small motor control system with PID, Pll. audio system and interface and some acoustic knowledge. vedio monitor system installation, a little Matlab, a little project geometry; use a litlle project2k for project management.
But the stronge item and have to do is speak, write chinese.

Sounds like you need to move to a place in China where those skills will pay more $$, as you sound quite well qualified, but your local area may not be a good place. You may wish to stay where you live now for social reasons.

Aurizon wrote: Sounds like you need to move to a place in China where those skills will pay more $$, as you sound quite well qualified, but your local area may not be a good place.

REPLY: I'm told there are restrictions on travel outside your immediate district. You must first get permission form the police or government. Is this in fact true? I was recently told by our surveyor that only very important people are allowed to drive private cars and these have restrictive licence plates good only for limited ares. Our staff report that they have to be escorted everywhere. Is this to protect them or to keep them from talking to local people. One guy is married to a chinese national and speaks mandarin. Yet he is also restricted. ?????? curious!

I have read the Chinese government has restricted people's fredom of movement to avoid internal economic migration.

Haha, its very old calendar!1 I even think you havnt read book, paper and travel outside canada in the 20years.

Today as a citizen in china, you can move anywhere if you like. not other restrict, but you have to have money. take a think, if you hvnt got money, how do you live?

chinese is freedom now, you can go out even anywhere in the world. if the distination country allow you entry.

Im sorry can I say youlive in a some countryside? no tv, no broadcast, no paper, just a beer bar?

CNPOWER wrote: I even think you havnt read book, paper and travel outside canada in the 20years >>>snip <<<<<<,Im sorry can I say youlive in a some countryside? no tv, no broadcast, no paper, just a beer bar?

REPLY: As a matter of fact, I was talking to the surveyor using skype last week. He said he was not allowed to buy a car and drive where ever he wanted. He wasn't even allowed to buy a motor cycle. The government only allow him to be driven by the factory staff. He felt they were trying to control his movements.

He can walk anywhere he wants but that doesn't go far. Only inside the free trade zone. The other two staff people I spoke to were over in the yard this summer. They reported also that work conditions were very poor. Last year I spoke to several other engineers and designers who recently had visited China.

They were working in Zhuhai down near Hong Kong but in mainland. They had similar reports and said travel was restricted. Foreigners are only allowed to see specific things that the government want them to see.

So I don't know what the newspapers say; I only go by what people who have recently visited China say. Maybe they all lie!

But I can tell you this. The yard workers cannot be very educated. They haven't got a clue regarding the electrical standards used in other countries. So how can they expect to build equipment for use in these other countries. The equipment must be built to the specifications and standards in effect in the country the equipment is sold to. If they are so bright and have acces to the internet why don't they know these things?

They are asking questions so basic that even a school student would know the answer.

REPLY: As a matter of fact, I was talking to the surveyor using skype last week. He said he was not allowed to buy a car and drive where ever he wanted. He wasn't even allowed to buy a motor cycle. The government only allow him to be driven by the factory staff. He felt they were trying to control his movements.
--

Do you believe thier words? is it today or old last? as I know the only things maybe took place in some famous political sports, in 1957, 1964, 1966, 1967 and 1972, 1977. if he said in the 21 cuntural. he must be cheating you.
oppsitely. now chinese gov encourage people to buy car, if you have money. you can buy 10 cars. can buy germany car, usa car etc.

motocar is restrained, its true. in many large cities. like beijng shanghai, etc. next yuear, guangzhou will be restrained as well.

if someone support me more money, I even can buy jet aeroplane to flight in chinese sky now.

Do you believe thier words? >> snip<< he must be cheating you.

motocar is restrained, its true. in many large cities. like beijng shanghai, etc. next yuear, guangzhou will be restrained as well.

REPLY

Oh right! guess all white people in china are probably liars and I should not believe them. As it happens the people I have talked to did refer to Beijing, Shanghai where one shipyard is located, and Zuhai where the other shipyard is located, and which I think may be close to Guangchou. These were the places they were permitted to visit. Shipyards are usually located in the coastal areas.

why all of white people lie? Are you a blackman from africa?

as matter of fact, there are always some people lie some people speak true in the world. I wish that you would be thinking by your mind, your brain, not only hearing on the way, or only by eyes. sometimes, eyes could even cheat you. if you were an engineer, you might agree to it.

i dont know what you are expressing here exactly? restricting motorcar drive in cities is wrost? Do you know there are lots of west countries also restrict its driving in urban now? some even restrain in suburb. safety. security is very important.

"oppsitely. now chinese gov encourage people to buy car, if you have money. you can buy 10 cars. can buy germany car, usa car etc."

Sounds pretty capitalistic in an odd sort of way...... oh, oh can you say that?

--He can walk anywhere he wants but that doesn't go far. Only inside the free trade zone. The other two staff people I spoke to were over in the yard this summer. They reported also that work conditions were very poor. Last year I spoke to several other engineers and designers who recently had visited China.

This thing is right if it took place in coastland. I believe it. there are very bad work condition for workers work in some villiges factories out there. The owners are almost peasants from Taiwan, Japan or south korea. they lost their land and get a little money paid by taiwan gov, or japan or korea gov. they have no culture and knowledge. they know only how to make money from the poor mainland labour. I was told even some form USA like NIKe co. etc.

This thing is right if it took place in coastland. I believe it. there are very bad work condition for workers work in some villiges factories out there. The owners are almost peasants from Taiwan, Japan or south korea. they lost their land and get a little money paid by taiwan gov, or japan or korea gov. they have no culture and knowledge. they know only how to make money from the poor mainland labour.

REPLY

LOL, of course its in the coastland. Where else would you have a ship building yard?

And you are probably right about the business owners being poor peasants with no knowlwdge or culture. They are only money grubbing capitalistic swine. But they are hardly poor! These are the guys making so much money they can afford the unrestricted car plates that allow them to travel anywhere any time - even to Beijing, shanghai or the free trade zones in Guangzhou.

Trouble is, the places where the chinese government allows factories to be built to cater to export manufacturing work is apparently also the places where the worst workplace conditions exist. Outsiders can only judge the country by what they see. And end user consumers can only judge Chinese manufacturing by the end quality of the products they buy. I would like to see what Chinese quality products look like. But where are they? So far all the products - even high tech stuff like Inverters and chargers - that have been manufactured in china do not measure up. The North American companies that I have worked for that do manufacture in China admit it's a problem but say the labor in China is so cheap that its cheaper to just give the customer another product as replacement ; than to try and upgrade the quality process in the production facility.

1] Its a pity, why you said these businessmen are swine? it seems too rude. I only said that the men are almost peasants lost their land at their home. they are greed but they work hard. now they are the rich in mainland. because they have money. none denies the fact. I have also material in hand that how poor they are before in taiwan and now they get rich. you can easily find it on the net. of cause some of them are talents who studied and educated in west university ever. they have good skills.

2] Who told you our inverter and charger hant measured? which specification or parameters do you want? voltage? current? or power output or change rate? etc. if they hant acquired sorts of kinds of standard to export contries like ul asme iec iso-9...how they would export? USA is not foolish so be as canada.

I know its rude to brage about teaching someone this, that, but you really need to learn more.

Are you making welding machine? pilot or generator for ship?

"So I don't know what the newspapers say; I only go by what people who have recently visited China say. Maybe they all lie!"

Just go to show that you can't always "trust" other peoples report on these things. Maybe when you go there yourself you will see the other side of China. Yes lots of things are bad and knowing our life here we would not readily agree to most of it, that is true.

When I have been there, even my first visit 10 years ago, there are loads of cars about and enterprise is now positively encouraged by their government. The only restriction they have is their wealth and licenses to drive their cars to different places. You need special licenses to enter city centres and it shows on your car registration plate. Even taxi's cannot go to some places if they have the "wrong" license.

With regards to knowledge of those yard workers, maybe the contractor is fleecing them even to their standards and you know when you pay peanuts, you get monkeys! That is universal wherever you go. The general knowledge in China on industrial matters worldwide will astound you. The only thing you must not forget is that when you ask some low or unskilled worker from ANY country what he or she thinks about this or that situation, you will always be met with ignorance, not just in China.

I have been married to a Chinese Woman for 16 years and have known her for longer than that. I have therefor close contact with their culture and their way of thinking which is sometimes hard to get to grips with, I agree. What I do not like to see is that they get over generalised by misconception, biased views or uninformed individuals. There are rights and wrongs everywhere. Pointing one out and not the other gets us nowhere.

"hey had similar reports and said travel was restricted. Foreigners are only allowed to see specific things that the government want them to see.

So I don't know what the newspapers say; I only go by what people who have recently visited China say. Maybe they all lie!"

Hi Elnav, I was in China in 2005, in Beijing and also the countryside. Apart from the extreme (to me) humidity, I was amazed at all the Audi and Mercedes everywhere. This is indeed a land of contrasts, I saw children herding animals along the hard shoulder of a busy multi-lane highway and sadly in the city, many very old people begging on the streets while the younger generation(s) work in the factories. CNpower is speaking the truth about freedom to travel if you have money although as in any country, some areas with sensitive installations will be off-limits - quite normal I think. China is going through huge changes, year by year and it will be interesting to see if this rate of change can be sustained. It's not perfect, but then where is? Despite fears for western economies, I'm looking forward to hearing more about this dynamic region over the coming years.

Fly blue wrote: Hi Elnav, I was in China in 2005, in Beijing and also the countryside. This is indeed a land of contrasts. China is going through huge changes, year by year and it will be interesting to see if this rate of change can be sustained. It's not perfect, but then where is?

REPLY: Quite so. But the people of China also need to be educated about the reality outside the "Great wall". Culturally and philosophically the West" may still be barbarians to their way of thinking. I found it interesting to see what CNPOWER's opinion was of Taiwanese business people. However these barbarians are also the souce of new technology that China wants.

What scares me is the regime that controls that huge population. It apparently has no regard for human life or the values the western world has developed over the past 2000 years. If they treat their own people that way, how will they treat subjugated countries they conquor. Tibet serves as a good example of that.

I have not seen any sign that China has changed its political aim of world domination in due course of time. Now that they have discoverd the economic warfare method, China seems intent on undermining the manufacturing base of all western xountries by whatever means. The yhave learned wel from the Americans.

As nice as individual chinese people are, its the regime that bears watching. They will put a gun to their citizens heads and force them to do their bidding.

If you really think that they are so different from anyone else (politically) I, for one, feel that you are being quite naive.

Some are worse than others at times but all are also equal at times. Equal in the evil and the righteous.

"The evil of man knows not of 'party'. And cares less for country."

cr3

"I have not seen any sign that China has changed its political aim of world domination in due course of time. Now that they have discoverd the economic warfare method, China seems intent on undermining the manufacturing base of all western xountries by whatever means"

Certainly China is intent on becoming the global manufacturing centre and their strength to achieve this is long term planning way ahead of anything that would ordinarily be considered practical in the west. However, I do not think this is simply a case of the Orient vs. Occident, rather the beginnings of an era of technological polarization where wealthy corporations from east and west will merge to form alliances that will make traditional geopolitical government increasingly meaningless. The polar opposite will consist of people who either cannot afford to join this hitech society, or perhaps who deliberately choose not to do so for their own reasons. For myself, I believe this scenario is a whole lot more scary for society than the, admittedly unpleasant, loss of jobs in western manufacturing.

you are strick an odd,
you said the work condition is worst, take a thinking, who make this worst condition? owner, employer or worker or labour? who are you sympathizing? just look at your logic. so much confusion.
who bring us Hi new tech? you are so simple and almost ignorant person! thinking carefully by your brain. what is hi an d new tech? pollution transfer? worst work condition? labour density and intensity type? less salary but do much?

if you would concern labour and their condition, block these factories, do nt sell your sets to them. dare you to do it? you can also complain to province or china pepple conference, in form of paper, document etc. although Im not rich, but I can sponsor to film, tape or cd making both from finance and tech.

you seem a politician rather than an engineer , I dont like politics any more. I wish you go to some political net to argue , but here you are wasting my time.

But I can tell you this. The yard workers cannot be very educated. They haven't got a clue regarding the electrical standards used in other countries. So how can they expect to build equipment for use in these other countries. The equipment must be built to the specifications and standards in effect in the country the equipment is sold to. If they are so bright and have acces to the internet why don't they know these things?

They are asking questions so basic that even a school student would know the answer.

Educate? take a think, who will take out money to train them? its prevate enterprise, not state owned. even in state owned enterprise there is less chance for workers to get treainning now. today isnot yesterday. it couldnt helped.

those owners treat worker as a labour on the line. did you even see cfharli chaplin early film? that is answer!

I wonder why your friend paid money to go to that poor villiges instead of trip to famous scenery spots or modern factories? and if tey saw by their eyes, why dont they report to the privnce goverment to change the situation?

If your friends like to make the event a document, I can help and can find some film friends to help. However, I have a little filmmaking knowledge. maybe more tech knowledge than modern younger filmmaker who graduated from film college.from mangement, site shot mixdown sound music to develop etc

CNPOWER wrote:

I wonder why your friend paid money to go to that poor villiges instead of trip to famous scenery spots or modern factories? and if tey saw by their eyes, why dont they report to the privnce goverment to change the situation?

REPLY: funny guy!! Except for our own staff going to visit our own factory facility, the people I talked to were all telling me about government sponsored and paid for business trips. Why would they report this to the province government. Oh yes, there is one exception. The daughter of a friend of mine went to Beijing for a year as an exchange student and sent back weekly reports of daily life complete with pictures of her dorm, where she lived, the local market where she shopped for food, and the places she was allowed to visit as a foreigner.

But maybe she was also faking the photos and lying about the conditions she saw and made it look worse than it really is. All I know is; I could not possibly live in that polluted air or the over crowding living conditions and generally messy locations I saw in the pictures.

National Geographic recently ran an article about the emerging economy of China. Strangely enough their photos pretty much showed the same kind of thing, and said the same kind of thing about chinese production. They also made a point about how chinese business do not honor patent and copyright international law. But I guess that was also just another lie.

CNPOWER wrote:

Educate? take a think, who will take out money to train them? its prevate enterprise, not state owned. even in state owned enterprise there is less chance for workers to get treainning now. today isnot yesterday. it couldnt helped.

REPLY

Any company wishing to sell into the international market place must meet the expected standards of the customer. If they don't then they do not sell much. So it's in the company's own best interest to educate and train their staff regarding the knowledge they must have to do the job.

In product design so much of it involves safety. But if you don't have much regard for safety to begin with then its hard to realize that something is not an adequate design because it fails to address the safety aspects. As an example, the question was why must a certain kind of wire be used. - Answer, because the cheap stuff is unsafe and a fire hazard. They could not see that.

As I become acquainted with your sense of humor I find great fun in your comments!

cr3

All that for $3 bucks an hour!

http://neweconomist.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/20060318_chinaswagecostchallenge_bw.gif

of course, this is for labor, skilled people get extra, so $3/hour is more that twice inland costs.

Coast is a lot better

I dont know where the statistical disgial come from. its not quite right.

somebody has higher than that number, most of people is less than that!

I mean $3 per day !!! not per hour.

$3/day?? less than $1000/year??

According to that chart labourers get $2000 annually. stop the mind work, dig some ditches.

suprise at it?

its true! if I dig I may get a little more, but I hv no such force to do

if I would be an department officer, I would get a little mreo else

I work as worker both mind work and physical labour. could you image?

I dont know how much shall I get if stay in your region as such primary tech level?

I see, I hope you are able to migrate to a better job in your area.

Thanks at the same.

I wish I could.

this district is lall low salary, mine is middle.

the issue is how rise my tech level repidaly to equal to others

--

dont take seriesly. some of content is only a jok

see yuu all next week.

Hard work is not a reason to be embarrass. your country is going through a transition like other industrial country have.

Where they do take advantage of its people, as things begin to establish themselves in your country, your may have more opportunities for you to change or move on.

It seems that its very easy for your west people to move on. but I was always told that its almost impossible for us to move on from one country to another.

point taken, you can not compare apples to oranges at the moment, patience.

mind work sometimes is more hard than physical labour, I think

thinking does burn up alot of calories

Im afraid that calorie and kilocalorie are no longer a standard metrology terms of ISO. at least it was denied by chinese metrology organize in our metrology catalogue. you can use Joule as energy unit.

I must have been sick that day when that standard was dropped.

I believe how some country's excelled, is that it took more effort to raise food. that took away any effort to develop the technologies.

"other workers work very hard, but get little wages, like me. I work every day for nearly 19 hours only be paid less than 3usd(equivalent). Im very tired and hope to do nothing after getting off."

Hi, do you have a blog in english? I for one, am keen to hear about working conditions in China directly from technically educated chinese people such as yourself. It would also give you an opportunity to improve your technical english and maybe you could later find some better paid employment with foreign companies in China requiring technical translators.

haha, thank you at the same. excellent salary absorb everyone very much. but Im sorry I couldnt get it for my the wrost english. you know there are lots of people can speak english even a child can speak much better than me.

I hv blog neither in english nor in chinese. you must be a journalist. yhou can get press material from our paper, tv program or from net directly. you can get nothing from me, Im only a industrious worker.

you can come here to gether news freedomly, none restrict you. you can trust me now. you can visit tech people either coastland or inland to get their idea. in fact you can get that in most JV cop. in china easily. they may have more stress than me. I hvnt got work pressure. Howeve, I hve my job in name.

Do you believe the words that a man works last 19hs long a day is true?

no, its my type wrong. 10--14 hour enough. you know when you work in lab, the time fly fast. just like writer, when he find afflatus, he will forget eating.

"haha, thank you at the same. excellent salary absorb everyone very much. but Im sorry I couldnt get it for my the wrost english. you know there are lots of people can speak english even a child can speak much better than me. I hv blog neither in english nor in chinese. you must be a journalist. yhou can get press material from our paper, tv program or from net directly. you can get nothing from me, Im only a industrious worker"

Hi CNpower, your working conditions may not be wonderful but it is good to see your sense of humour appears intact, that will help sustain you through much and should be considered priceless. Good luck for the future.

Thank you for your encourage. I thnk condition will be change to good more and more. every thing is changing now.

but the idea wonderful condition is not existing forever.

idea would be changed as ideal, add letter l.

ideal enviromment or ideal circumstance.

(whats difference of the two phrases?)

About 10 years ago I taught some chinese machine operators how to print envelopes. After 2 weeks of training, the first half of the plan, they would be semi skilled workers and earn £16 (pound sterling) a month.

After another 2 weeks training, 6 months later, they would do an exam and if passed would move up to skilled operator and earn £21 per month. They were the highest paid factory workers on the estate and almost worshipped by their fellow workers.

This is 10 years ago and must be better now but can't be all that much better as on my last trip for holiday to Beijing and other cities, we still encountered many situations we would not want to see in our countries.

I think that the vast number of people there breeds indifference to their needs and wellbeing. Too many others ready to take your place if you dare to complain.

ok, I'm out.

If I wanted to discuss politics in anger, I would have studied economics and politics at uni instead of engineering.

See you guys at some other thread.

elnav,

you are waving sword, just like a knight but you and your friends are real cravens. you can only speak ruefully but never dare to complain and block those who made such comdition to workers in their factories. you have a simplest brain and conflicting strange thinking. I wonder how will your friends design machine, youi maybe only an operator.

To e and your canada friends again.

your friend said tht she lived in a bad domitory within many students in beijing. I dont know how bad it s. I can only tell you that in china university, we ususally live in a domitory of 6 persons, My father lived in that of 3-6 persons in his university in his times, I lived such room in university and my child still live in such kind of room in their university in beijing now. but they have air condition and toilet room like a hotel and we hvnt got at that time.

Do you friend know they can rent room of best condition outside campus, very like oversea student live in usa university. but most of students dont do that. they need study not for live a good life in campus.

we have most population, but your country dont have.

Roughly gone through the above arguments, I think we can't just stand in the view from a person who have lived in the developed country and comments and comparing lot of things that's are not meeting the same standards as you are enjoying today in your developed country. If possible, ask your grand parents, how are the conditions in your country in the last century. Do they able to live like the condition you mentioned or similarly to some of the village / outskirt country side? China is in the growing stage and off course receive lots of pressure from others developed country who the reporters may have other motives and political moves under "certain instruction / objectives; may be".

In additional, the bad things always easily spread to the world and good things remain unnoticed. I strongly believed China will provide the similar treatments and achieve and enjoying the same human rights as you mentioned today in the future and will also suffering the economy pressure like you are facing today.

I am a Chinese but not a China Chinese, but with no problems of traveling in China either for businesses matters or even to visit grandparents / parents' relatives to some outskirt area. We can't compare a coastal and more developed city to the outskirt cities. The standard of living and lifestyle are so much different.

We always forget, compare and never feel sufficient or satisfied of what we have and possessed until it is disappeared / gone. People will live much more comfortable and happy when they have wilily accepted the situation.