Forged steel or cast nodular iron crankshafts

I've never heard of that one in 30 years of building engines! (Since I was 10) Over the years I've been to many machine shops, without exception they all lay the cranks on shelves, I've been into a few manufacturers, Perkins diesel perhaps the biggest, they all have there newly forged and machined cranks stacked flat. I can see where they could deflect if unsupported, but what about the modulus of elasticity?

Hmm. With apologies to Victor, I DON'T BELIEVE IT!

Complete and utter bo**ocks.

Refer to the 'glass is a liquid' debate for discussion about flow and such.

Some machines have considerable overhang on a shaft with no ill effect...

Someone is pulling you leg and needs a good slapping with a wet haddock.

I kno it will come as a shock to hear this from Del...but you could always do the maths..the figures for common steels are easilly available. Work out the bending moment for a nice heavy crank supported by one end journal..... (or just take our word for it!)

Posted some funny reading from googling. I have cranks hanging, sitting on end, laying on their sides... never has seemed to make any difference. Sometimes, at my shop, we can't laugh at stuff like this, because the customer gets IRATE, they KNOW it has to stand on end! :)

One thing that IS true: cranks breed. (and all other engine parts too, boxes of connecting rods anyone??) A couple years ago I had to move about a hundred cranks/blocks/heads/other stuff to my rotortiller shed in the back yard because we were getting overran at work by them. I built it a little bigger than was needed to hold the rototiller and somehow it got filled full of "stuff". Yep, Ani out there tilling up her garden.

http://www.pbase.com/mrchevy/image/45181550

It IS time for eBay... :) How about a 1948 Plymouth 218 crank, all ground and ready to go? The weird stuff like that should sell okay on eBay.

Enjoy the laughs.

Ken

How about some "fun" reading then? LOL Some of the following are hilarious for sure! Forged is softer than cast. Molecular shift. Some comments are so stupid they make a person laugh pretty loud. Grease them and store in a plastic bag. That is a good way to get a rusty crank (or anything). Wrap in a blanket and store under the bed, again, a good way to get a rusty crank. Condensation is a great rust maker. The few cranks I have are stored dry, seems to work fine that way... well, at least for the last 29 years it has worked fine... maybe things will change.

Anyway, read on, and enjoy the chuckles.

Where do the wives tales get started? Who knows.

Ken

http://www.tpub.com/content/construction/14050/css/14050_74.htm

CRANKSHAFT STORAGE After the crankshaft has been removed from the engine, protect the crankshaft and prevent it from becoming warped by storing it on end in a safe area.

http://www.zorce.com/zforums/viewtopic.php?p=21439&sid=354a5532f889556101590fa499e8754f

UPDATE --> Mitsu Power just came up with a brilliant idea today.
Tuners always have trouble finding convenient ways to store spare crankshafts.
They should be "hung" vertically. If stored horizontally, you face the distinct possibility
of warpage over a long period of time... but it's awkward and takes up a lot of space.

Sooo... when I get the block cut, I won't throw away the lower section.
Cut a shallow section retaining the main bearing journals AND the main bearing cap girdle.
Lay some fairly good, CLEAN and well lubricated main bearings in place in both parts...

Quote: EDIT: Oil ALL bearing surfaces & journals.
:::::: Cover ALL bearing surfaces & journals with thin, food-grade "cling-wrap" plastic film.
:::::: The film reduces oil migration and keeps surfaces rust-free for a much longer time.
:::::: Lube ALL oil passages in the crank-shaft.
:::::: (ADD a blob of HD grease at each end of oil-passage to stop oil from running out.)
:::::: Now install crank-shaft, replace girdle and replace OEM bolts.
:::::: TORQUE to standard OEM specs.

There yuh go! SAFE... warp-free... rust-free... HORIZONTAL crank-shaft storage.

Excellent idea IMHO. Thanks again Mitsu Power

http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/best-way-store-crank-shaft-101169.html

Best way to store a crank shaft?

Whats the best way to store a crank shaft? Is it better to sit it on its butt or lay it across the throws?

Thanks

Steve

re: Best way to store a crank shaft?

the best way is to hang it...the second best & most common is to stand it on end...the worst way is to lay it down

re: Best way to store a crank shaft?

I was always taught (right or wrong) to store it on end -Flywheel side down-

re: Best way to store a crank shaft?

y shouldn't store it on its side?

Brendan

re: Best way to store a crank shaft?

It really doesn't matter. If it's on it side, it can't get knocked over......

tom __________________
Paddle faster! I hear banjo music.........

re: Best way to store a crank shaft?

Like Tom says...if it falls over, that will hurt it more than it laying on it's side. Hang it. Build a slotted shelf so it can hang by the back end. __________________
"Freedom 55"......................:)

re: Best way to store a crank shaft?

I store mine on end in a way that they can't fall. In my situation I have mine behind my air compressor. I have one crank right now that doesn't fit behind it, so I just wrapped it in an old blanket and set it on end. If it does fall, at least it won't damage it.

re: Best way to store a crank shaft?

I have seen guys use the snout bolt and drill a few holes in a shelf. They just hold the crank up to the shelf and thread the bolt through the hole. I did that once and dropped a cast Caddy crank from chest height on a cement floor. I gave up on that idea.

what?

If you want to have it rebalanced, lay it on the side, pay the machine shop again. They will love the extra business. Mind you it is now down season, so good luck on getting it back by spring time.
Or, store it upright, hanging, is probably safest though watch your head. Bolt the flex pate on and use tha as a stand, or last but not least, make sure it is upright. Best to worse of the three.

re: Best way to store a crank shaft?

Why would you have to rebalance the crank if you lay it on its side?

It is not round

It is not a rod, it has weights plural. Eack weight wants to go its own way. Gravity is still an issue even though it is metal. Not only from a crank getting thrust around inside an engine block, but it gets heated and cooled and heated and cooled, etc... The more true a crank is to being balanced, means less friction, less resistance. I want my crank to not slap up and down or side to side or twist. I want it to be as balanced as the guys at the machine shop can get it. And when a master engine builder tells me that I need to store it upright and not on its side and explains what I explained, as well as my going to the machine shops enough times and seeing and talking to a few machinists, I am not asking again. His name is Tom Varrenti. He is in Penn Hills, PA. Credentials to my knowledge. Hotrodding since the 50s, back and forths with Jack McDunah or however his name is spelled, 1977 Nationals from all over the country in PA, was only person left standing from Keystone on Sunday and red lighted. Did it all on his own money and was the only white camaro without an endorsement. B&R represented the other 11 guys. Ask CraneCams if they know of him?
He puts an engine together and he does it right. His crank assembly let alone his engine assembly is tops. Smooth as silk is spins.
That's why, don't store it on its side.
Dang, sorry for the long windedness, but didn't know on how else to explain my knowledge of that.

re: Best way to store a crank shaft?

You want me to believe that a crank that will withstand 500#ft of torque is going to bend if I lay it on the floor? I'll bet you can't measure the deflection. This question came up in a different forum and here's one of the replies, from a well respected engine builder in Northern California:

"You know,, this has been around forever & I used to subscribe to it too at one time because it has been repeated so many times. Never thought to question it.

Well, one of the best performance crank grinder in the business had a crank sitting on his counter on a set of V blocks at each end with a big old lead weight attached to the center main,,
Now this would be the worst case scenario for laying a crank on its side being as it has no support from end to end.
I assumed it was for display.
The real reason was for uninformed folks like me who thought you had to stand a crank up for storage.
This crank had been in this position for probably 10 years & was as straight as the day he put it there.

The very simple reason that you see cranks hanging up in most grinding shops is because they take up less room, it has nothing to do with any preconceived notion that they will magically bend if laid on it's side.

Upon using a bit if common sense ( I do this every once in a while when all else fails),,, consider that the crank on its side is supported by the counterweights & journals about every 3 or 4 inches,,, highly doubtful it is going to damage itself in this condition"

re: Best way to store a crank shaft?

OK...now that that's settled, let's dicuss laying camshafts on their side......................... __________________
"Freedom 55"......................:)

re: Best way to store a crank shaft?

If it made that much of a difference,by the time you got one shipped to you it would be junk.

re: Best way to store a crank shaft?

I would think that anything with that much metal would be plenty strong due to what it is. It takes a lot of stress that would be a little hard to duplicate outside of an engine. I would imagine that it could be laid on its side without any trouble.

re: Best way to store a crank shaft?

you guys are getting right cranky over this crank issue,

V Blocks

The mains were supported, that is why it stayed there for so long. when shipped in a box, the mains are supported. Otherwise.... Ask him to store it withough the V blocks supporting the mains. Ah heck.

re: Best way to store a crank shaft?

Even the stoutest metal will "creep" under continuous stress. This is a process where the macro metal does not see enough stress to cause permanent deformation. On a micro (atomic) level, however, distinct atomic bonds do see enough stress to cause these bonds to break and create a deformation on the atomic level. Over a period of time, these atomic level deformations add up and can be measured at the macro level.

What you have with a crank laying on its side is a relatively heavy object resting on a few points (due to the geometry of the counterweights and throws) with relatively large spans unsupported in between supports. Over time, the crank will "creep" out of shape.

IMHO, the best method to store a crank would be on the mains using v-blocks (precision machined and perfectly in line with one another). Second would be in the block assuming the block is straight and properly supported. Finally, stand it on end or hang it from the snout. I would never lay one on its side for storage unless I was planning on having it machined.

re: Best way to store a crank shaft?

If you store it standing up does the weight settle to the rear?

Anyone seen Skippy? Here, boy.

re: Best way to store a crank shaft?

Quote: Originally Posted by MI2600 If you store it standing up does the weight settle to the rear?

Anyone seen Skippy? Here, boy.

That is why standing or hanging is my third choice. The thing is, the loads are more uniform. There is less of a moment arm, so less stress. And, to a degree, the loads are canceling since they are usually evenly distributed. In other words, while the potential is there to bend a rod journal due to the eccentric loading, it would take a far greater length of time and the results would be less catastrophic than main journals out of line.

re: Best way to store a crank shaft?

Imagine the destruction here...Hundreds of cranks creeping into intolerance.



And more cranks in trouble...

re: Best way to store a crank shaft?

Typical factory storage and packaging technique:

Flat, nesting the main bearings in production

Flat, in molded dunnage nesting the counterweights in storage

Flat, in protective dunnage during service pack and shipment

I forget who asked, but they often hang camshafts during production, but they are stored flat, in molded dunnage.

re: Best way to store a crank shaft?

While I agree with both sides of this discussion, sometime find yourself an old dusty crank that's been sitting under someone's workbench for 20 years and test its balance. You'll be frightened at how bad it is.

I didn't really believe it either until my friend got a pontiac crank as part of a 68 firebird project. The crank was new in the box from a pontiac dealer in 1973 and it was stored on its side for about 25 years. When he saw how far out it was at the machine shop, he just sold it instead of waste all that money on it.

The other factor is what its made of... Forgings are "softer". They absorb impact much better which makes them stronger in their application, but castings are more rigid and hard. That's why when you hit a forged crank it just thuds while hitting a cast crank makes it sing like a bell. Does that mean that storing a cast crank on its side will have less effect than storing a forged crank on its side?

re: Best way to store a crank shaft?

I was taught that a cast crank makes a thud when whacked.

I thought forged cranks made the singing noise??

re: Best way to store a crank shaft?

Nope, other way around. Casting makes a random crystalline structure. Its harder and more brittle. Forgings take hot (non molten) metal and force it into shape, aligning the crystalline structure.

re: Best way to store a crank shaft?

While I agree with both sides of this discussion, sometime find yourself an old dusty crank that's been sitting under someone's workbench for 20 years and test its balance. You'll be frightened at how bad it is.


What's involved in balancing a crank? Why would the balance change during storage?

re: Best way to store a crank shaft?

I think it's a matter of time. A crank would have to lay on its side for YEARS -- not months -- for any "molecular creep" to occur. Storing for a few months or even 2-3 years on it's side shouldn't make a noticeable difference, at least not for a stock crank. Storing for 25 years I can believe a noticeable difference, but I'd be skeptical of five years or less. Most manufacturers won't have the crank stored on its side for more than a few months, maybe a year or two, so should be fine. Unless it's really long term, storing lying down should be just fine!

re: Best way to store a crank shaft?

This is interesting about on how to store a crank, I always have stored them standing on end. As for forged cranks or cast cranks ringing when tapped with a steel bar, both will ring if good. Its when a crank won't ring, then you have a problem with casting porosity or a crack. I have tried this on a forged Ford 361 FE truck crank and a cast Ford 390 crank, they both rang when tapped with a steel bar. I then tried it on a old Ford 302 crank that had noticeable damage and it gave off a dull thud. I took the crank to a machinist and he looked it over, the crank had a crack in a rod journal.

re: Best way to store a crank shaft?

Quote: Originally Posted by farna I think it's a matter of time. A crank would have to lay on its side for YEARS -- not months -- for any "molecular creep" to occur. Storing for a few months or even 2-3 years on it's side shouldn't make a noticeable difference, at least not for a stock crank. Storing for 25 years I can believe a noticeable difference, but I'd be skeptical of five years or less. Most manufacturers won't have the crank stored on its side for more than a few months, maybe a year or two, so should be fine. Unless it's really long term, storing lying down should be just fine!

re: Best way to store a crank shaft?

May that's because 25 years ago the production tolerance were way looser than even todays worst ones.

Do you have the original balance sheet to compare.

Balance has nothing to do with whether the crank is bent. You talking about the heavy side drifting down toward gravity like an hour glass? Metal is not a liquid. Why do archaeologist's find metal that is 1000's of years old, still holding it shape. It should be in whatever shape the container is on by these theory's.

Ridiculous!

Cranks are measured in grams while balancing, not molecular mass for god sake.

re: Best way to store a crank shaft?

This is the most stupid post I have ever read.
and if a crank shaft would lay under someones workbench even for a week... I wouldn't be the one putting it back in a motor!!! on the side or up doesn't matter ... its where you store it that matters... If I had a good crank and wanted to store it, on the side or up wouldn't be what I would worry for, it would be to store it in a clean and dry environment with oil on it and away from possible damage (like a hammer that falls down a workbench!)

Yep, that made me smile!A friend of mine had a Ford straight 8, out of a Galaxie, I think. I believe this crank had 3 main bearing journals, and when the engine speed reached 4000rpm, you could see the engine start to vibrate as the crank flexed. As the engine speed went to about 5000rpm (MAX!) the vibrations smoothed out again. I'm betting these 'experts' would say that the crank was now bent! As I remember, the engine did about 40,000 miles in a hot rod. The main feature was the row of 8 header pipes.

I'm just wondering what the justification of the whole argument was? I've never had a crank fail, and I can't remember hearing of one go. I myself have had a con rod let go (at stupid revs!) catastrophically, through the side of the block, in fact, and, after checking the crank, used it in another engine that, as far as I know, still runs.

Ah, a Ford straight 8. That must be cutting edge new! Ford hadn't produced a straight 8 as of last Friday, so it has to be something new they are doing! :)

Seems like I remember Buick/Olds/Chrysler/Pontiac/Hudson had straight 8's back in the day, but that was before my time. I am only 60 and so only know about the "new" stuff from 50's on up. Some of that "new" stuff from 2006-2007 that shops bring into our machine shop to be "fixed" looks kind of strange sometimes. 5 valves per cylinder is one that comes to mind.

Yep, 8 pipes on one side of the engine would look kind of classy.

Ken

I had a tune AH Sprite ("A" Seies) crank (Original Cast iron) break on me, many years ago. Again, silly revs.....

It broke on the front web, between the front crankshaft bearing and the push rod bearing for # 1 Cylinder.... Made a loud bang, I stopped, got out, everything seemed ok, got back in, started the engine again, ticked over fine, gave it a few revs and it made a really funny noise, but ran. Drove home very slowly, dropped the engine out, drained the oil, took off the oil pan and looked, everything seemed to be fine still......

Moved the crank and looked around and then I saw oil being squeezed out from the crack. The crank was fully broken in two pieces, but had stayed together.....crazy!!

Went to a shop and bought an (expensive) steel after market crank and the guy in the shop said they generally broke there (area of least power passing thru the crank) and broke because of flexing, not because of a lack of strength!!

3 bearing crank again.....

Motor was not otherwise damaged!! So it could have been worse!!

Respect!

That's right! Not classy. RESPECT!

Jaguar engines (older 4.2's and 3.8's) tend to set up a harmonic at about 6,000 RPM's that causes the crank to break at either the sixth rod journal or the nose(Jaguar cylinders are counted backwards, number one being at the back of the engine. Go figure) Using a fluid damper greatly minimizes this.

Fluid damper than what? (joke folks..don't panic)

If my memory serves me well, the 4.2 was a real problem, the 3.8 less of.....

It is very interesting that (if I understood you correctly) the same part of the crank broke as in my "A" series engine in about 1966!! The bit that drives the cam/water pump etc on most engines.....(not having had a Jag straight 6 apart!!)...

Small block Chevy 400's (all of them cast from the factory, have to go aftermarket to get forged)...have seen a few of those over the years, broke at the 1st throw.

A brother in law (at that time, 1971) had a 1964 Chevy with a 327 in it that broke the crank on the 1st throw too, and ALL small journal 327 cranks are forged steel.

One of my customers had to replace a crank in a motorhome with a 454 Chevy in it that broke there too (forged steel again).

Doesn't that make you feel good Andy? You are not ALONE out there! :)

I felt alone at the time!! 20 years old, no money and a broke car!!

But today I feel like I am "one of the Boys".....it happens (happened) far often than I thought!!

The question is, what are cranks made of today, did the extra 2 bearings that are in most 4 cylinder engines today, have a good effect in this area....? Do they still break? Where do they break?

Andy,

The Ford flathead v8 had 3 main bearings and I can't remember ever seeing a broke one of them.

I don't know if people are driving "easier" these days or if the metal is getting better or if they are balancing them better before stuffing them in the new cars. Only seen/heard about 2 broke cranks in the last couple years. Of course I don't have many customers, umm I hit F2 in QuickBooks and it say 1,681 customers as of right now, I like QuickBooks pretty good, lets a person keep on top of things book wise.

I remember my Corvette engine made a hell of a noise when a piston came apart at 8,250 RPM... turned the block into junk real QUICK!

Now my 1968 Nova SS is a different story, when I put the engine back into it this time it will be engine number 14. For some reason I am hard on engines in the Nova.

Life is fun, most of the time!

Wow! Thanks for the Post!

8,250 !!! That's NASCAR country. What would you expect with store-bought parts. At that point you find yourself some heavy duty engineers (sorry guys) and design your own parts.

About those smaller and older engines,consider that if you are running an engine that doesn't have enough power to blow itself apart, all you really need is three journals. Most of those engines are low rev and the dynamic components are a lot heavier, relatively, than would allow themselves to be affected by the necessary harmonic frequency that would cause catastrophic failure, disallowing, of course incidents caused by inclusions or other anomalies in the metal. You know what I mean?

Yeah :) The last motor in the Nova. We were messing with the shift points in the transmission (my friend owned a transmission shop, miss him a lot, 1997, sitting on the couch, been complaining about headaches all the time, none of us "friends" listened and MADE him go to the hospital to get checked out...to much pressure, pop, instant vegetable, unplugged him the next day, 40 years old) using the governor. Took it for a test drive, oops, wrong weights, wouldn't come out of 1st, slammed the shifter... the tattle tale in the tach said 7,800 RPM... oops. That took a little life out of that ol' 460 cubic inch big block Chevy!

Fast forward: June 1999, started the motor (yeah, yeah, the ENGINE) and it died, hit the starter again and bang. Back fired a little bit and popped a tooth off the flywheel ring gear. Pull the motor to change the flexplate and thought, let's check the bearings while the motor is out.

Everything hammered HARD. Crank needed reground, block re-align honed, rods resized... gonna need a new set of pistons, 7 of them were cracked.

Someday will put it back together I suppose. Not a high priority right now.

I need more time. There is a 1994 Honda 1100cc Shadow in the "rototiller shed" with 8,400 miles on it and a dead battery... tags say the last time I probably rode it was 2002, that's when they expired.

The boy told me last night the S-10 Blazer's battery is dead, sitting too many months.

The pickup is low milage too, put 3,000 miles on it since Sept 2005.

Gotta get me a bookkeeper so I can go play! :) Ooops, gonna have to write myself a paycheck, haven't had one since Dec 2005.

I lead such a dull life. Need to find me a wife to take care of me now that Ani has ran off and is living in a house assessed at $1,000,000 more than mine. Can't blame her I guess. She was getting too old anyway. She's 31 now.

Am "I" having fun yet?

Wanted: Wife to take care of me, boss me around when I get out of hand, slender, pretty cute, smart, have her own copy of QuickBooks. Send picture of QuickBooks. :) Wait, wait, that was send a picture of the boat wasn't it? Dang, got the ad mixed up... I don't fish. Send photo of self.

And you guys thought YOUR life was boring!

LOL.....

If you get too bored...write a book...nice style.

Del

Well dang. Somebody has to have all the fun Del. I keep looking for it but it is somehow eluding me.

Write a book? I never do anything interesting enough that people would want to read about it. I just get to do all the hum dum stuff. But looking back on life, there MUST be others who don't get to do the exciting things in life, who just lead a dull life like I do. Then THOSE people might? smile when they see I have done the dull stuff they have done as they travel through this life.

I read all the interesting things others are doing or have done and think, geee, that would be an interesting life to live, not dull like mine. But, BUT!, this was the ticket available for me to live this time through, so I study hard and have came to the conclusion I am doing okay for someone with a 3rd grade education. In fact, I KNOW I am doing okay because I can count to 20 now!!

That is a story by itself! One day, as I sit contemplating putting on my socks and shoes (hahahaha, EVERYBODY says "shoes and socks" but they put them on the same way as I do, "socks and shoes", don't know why they say it backwards... hummm) and was struck by a blasting light of genius! My toes were just like my fingers, only shorter (but that was okay, we haven't been monkeys for a while) and EVER SINCE THAT DAY... I have been able to count to 20 instead of only to 10!

So, now, I can figure out the big numbers for myself!!

Don't know how I would write a book, I never do anything...BUT, if I can make one person smile and feel a little better about themselves, brighten their day a small bit, then the ramblings of the simple stuff I do as I go through this life is worthwhile.

Thank you Del, and keep LOL :) It IS good for the body.

Ken

Crikey! I've just caught up with all the posts, Loads more broken cranks then I ever expected. However, I can't shake the feeling that they are all down to poor design, rather then abusing the engine. Newer cranks are just better, my Kawasaki only lives over 8000! Look at all the damage you did to your 'vette engine when the piston broke up. It didn't actually break the crank. By the way, what sort of valve springs are you using to get the old Chevy engine to rev over 8000? They normally govern engine speed by 'bouncing'...

I think (if the rememberer works okay today) that I was using a set of General Kinetics springs along with the cam and lifters. Valve springs have always been available for $1 each, but to make any revs it seems they cost $200 or more a set for a Chevy. I can't imagine what it would be like to be one of the "big" boys who changes springs after every few runs. $thousands$ of $ in just valve springs. Need special valve spring compressor too, for them, since they have HUNDREDS of pounds of seat pressure.

I never get that involved, a set of springs for a few hundred $ is enough for me! But a person MUST have enough seat and open pressure, or NO high RPMs!

We laugh at the shop, guys buy a bigger cam and put it in their engine withOUT changing to the correct springs and find that sometimes... the engine doesn't rev as high as it would with the previous cam! (spring bounce). Or round off the cam lobes because the retainers are hitting the top of the valve guides.

Or they buy a 280 degree cam (advertised) and talking about how big it is... Yes, 280 IS big, IF you are talking at .050 lift, and THAT is the only numbers that mean anything. A good street cam is one that is 250-260 degrees @ .050. The next one I use will be in the 270-280 range (@ .050) on the street. That does make for the bump bump bump noise and the power and revs I enjoy. Cams are cool, just not many people understand them who come into the shop...ah, reading too many Hot Rod type magazines. Guess they don't realize those "articles" are made to sell the magazine. :)

Yeah, it ALL has to work together. :) Haven't heard of GK for years. They made good cams. (for me anyway, and thinking about it, they may have been Crane springs I was running).

No, it didn't break the forged steel crank. I told my partner, "keep the lifters in order, and careful with the cam"... hahahaha... guess that wasn't necessary, the cam was broke into 3 pieces.

AN OLD WIVES TALE, THINK ABOUT ALL THE POUNDING A CRANK TAKES IN IT'S LIFETIME. DO YOU REALLY THINK IT LAYING ON ITS SIDE WOULD HURT IT? IF LAYING IT DOWN HURTS IT THEN WE'RE ALL IN FOR A LOT OF ENGINE REBUILDING! JUST COVER UP THE JOURNAL SURFACES SO THEY DON'T GET DAMAGED AND DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT.

Cover up the journal surfaces? Since I own an automotive machine shop, over the years (this is my 30th year) I have been in many other shops, seen a LOT (thousands) of crankshafts in my day... can't ever remember any with journals covered up. You must be talking about Joe Blow who has A crankshaft at home?

I've seen cast crankshafts that have survived with minimal damage throwing a connecting rod and piston through the side of an engine block. Just polished up the bearing surfaces, checked the balence and they were good to go. Seems to me that would be far more destructive then having a crank laying on its side for any appreciable amount of time.

I guess my only arguement for the claim that you should lay them on thier end or hang them is if your application demands high precision. But, most of us arent turning our engines at 10,000 RPM, so I fail to see why, even if a little warpage does occur, it becomes a problem, especially if you're running a properly balenced harmonic dampener. Every crank is going to be manufactured with some tolerence in the thousandths or ten thousandths range, so I dont think its fair to assume that the crankshaft centerline is laser straight to begin with. Anybody who has ever actually assembled an engine knows bottom end assembly tolerences for things like endplay are usually measured in thousandths of an inch.

They HAD better be within 0 and a couple 10ths of being straight. No 10ths bend being best of course. Why would a crank be bent at all... makes a person wonder: was it dropped/knocked over? Lots of cranks call for clearances of 8/10ths to 2 and a half thou. 8/10ths doesn't give you much wiggle room before you are going to be rubbing metal on metal and that leads to disaster!

I started off working life as a heavy goods vehicle mechanic (apprenticed of course). In those 6 years I saw one broken crank, inline-6 Ford 360 turbo I think, the crank was cast iron. The conclusion was the vibration damper might have been at fault (rubber torsion mounted pulley on front driving belts) leading to stress at a particular node. It took me a while to accept hanging my bicycles by their wheels. I'm happy with it now but superstition is quite strong when compared to reality. And what about batteries having to be off the floor? (On wood for example).

So if not cranks, why worry about aircraft (jet) engines? I haven't experience in the field of creep but recognise it's a fact of life in engineering. Are we saying that the self weight of a crankshaft is definitely not significant in relation to it's stiffness. Somone up the page got me thinking, maybe in modern engines, which in car terms rarely have more than five throws today, this isn't significant. Grandad on the other hand did have straight-eights - and some of them pretty dubious in terms of crankshaft designs. Would this belief come form those days where someone might have encountered it. Mnr Bugatti made many of his cranks out of a machined billet, not cast and not forged. I think many of them have since cracked.

I have had little exposure to aircraft turbines, but both large (HUGE!) gas and steam turbines in use in the RN in the 60's and 70's at least, had to be turned by a little motor for many hours until they were cold!!! For just that reason!! To stop sagging!!!

Ah! of course, things are much worse when hot but I thought gas turbines still suffered when cold?

I am so worried by this thread I feel that Sydney harbour Bridge should be stored vertically overnight in case ot gets over stressed in it's horizontal position.

How many years has that been there Del? Hasn't the center span dropped a few feet? LOL

Thats a damn good idea, it seems to be getting a bit "Round-shouldered!"....

MrChevy...Sir!

You made mention of a Nova SS that is awaiting its 14th engine. I'm a little concerned about that poor car.

I'm sitting here in Montana, looking up at the clear, starry, night sky and the thought crossed my mind that you might be using that poor car to chase satellites.

Randy

That might actually be another cause of bent crankshafts..eh

Ah, chasing satellites, never thought of that! I'm hard on wives too, went through 2 divorces in 6 months one time, Nov 1995 and May 1996. Will NOT do THAT again. :)

Well I know of this engine shop in Georgia, and he has his shop on this hill, and he aint never had no crankshaft of his break. Cleetus says the secret is the shop floor that sits at exactly 22 and 1/2 degrees. Cause that is half of 45 degrees, which is half of the 90 degrees of the engine.

If you hang the cranks from the roof and you hit your head, it don't matter if they are cast, forged or billet. your head is going to ring just the same.

Dang straight, you are exactly right! I HATE "that" ringing sound.

I guess the Hunchback of Notre Dame also worked there at one time:-

""The Bells, the Bells, all I can hear is Bells!!"

International Harvester has been using a system whereby high pressure engine oil (I thought it was 3500, or 5500 PSI) is used to open the diesel fuel injectors. An electronic signal is used to open the path of the high pressure oil, causing the oil to open the injector. In theory this can be used to replace camshafts, and valve springs. Infinitely variable lift and duration. I don't know how high it can be made to rev, but it should work well till that point. And about a computer failure.....?

Computer engine management system will not fail, _click, fail _click fail _click fail....

Some of the new engines in the past few years, with dropping of 2 or 4 cylinders when there is a light load on the engine. Don't want it stuck on 4 cylinders when a truck is ready to run you over, where is the power!

Wouldn't that be something, play with the computer, have the 4 cylinders really straining under highest torque RPM and flip the switch to cut the other 4 cylinders in. (cut them in, not phase them in slowly) That might feel pretty good, from a hot rod point of view. :)

...as long as the computer didn't go on vacation.

What you would feel is half of the crank with rods and pistons attached bouncing up against the floor pan right about the area of the drivers seat. I have actually felt that once, only one piston though. A '66 3.8S as I recall.

Don't worry about scratching the floor pan, the oil should let the pieces slide just fine.

But who says that all of the cylinders have to operate the same. Perhaps two at high efficiency while the others are operating with closed valves and no fuel. Very little drag from them. Just add cylinders as needed.

I don't happen to feel that the addition or subtraction (?) of cylinders would be very harsh at all. At a modest 1200 rpm, each valve would open and close 10 times per second. Even if the computer were to give a command to go to full lift and duration, all that would happen, is to allow manifold vacuum to enter a cylinder that is already in a vacuum. Just like normal. Ignition from that cyl would provide additional push, and rotation on the crankshaft but no worse than the existing cylinders. And why would computer programmers not design it with a rate of change built in?

It ISN'T very harsh at all...the way it is now, the way they come from the factory.

Haven't you ever side stepped a clutch pedal at 6-7,000 RPM? Do you even know what that means? LOL

Yes I do. I spent the first 5 years of my 67 Chevelle's life drag racing EVERY chance I could.

The energy from a rotating big block at 6-7000 is not in question. I was referring to the effect of switching on four additional cylinders. It should not be as drastic as a separate ignition system would be now. With no valves opening and closing, there is less drag than there is on a current engine without ignition. With no valves open, all the compression on the up stroke, is returned on the down stroke of each piston in a non fire configuration. It is just my opinion that it would not be that drastic. I would welcome your opinion.

I miss my 67! White, red interior, 396/360, Muncie wr.

No, what I am saying bob, is: if a person had one of "those" engines turning up high while in a low gear, how DRASTIC would the effect be when all of the sudden you had 8 cylinders instead of 4 producing power?

If it makes 200hp on 4 cylinders at that RPM and 400hp on 8 cylinders at that rpm, how long would it take it to produce the 400hp? How many revolutions of the motor before it was "up to speed"?

At 6,000 RPM it is 100 revolutions a SECOND. It shouldn't take it over 4 revolutions to be producing FULL (producing on all 8 cylinders) power, right? And that is less than a 20th of a second. Shouldn't that feel like side stepping a clutch, to go from 200hp to 400hp in a 20th of a second? A 20th of a second is a LONG time in drag racing!

I don't know, I'm asking.

Ken

Mine was black red interior (later changed to black Cutlass Supreme).same motor-trans 410 in back. Yes I still miss it. Did you have rear upper control arm bushings rip out?

Currently we have engines with displacement on demand. Like 5.7 hemi. They should produce the same reaction. So if we cruise at minimum throttle at 4g in 1st, and suddenly stand on it we bring all the cylinders in. Now what rent a car has one of these motors in it? I feel a road trip coming up.

I had that car for such a short time, never got to do anything with it. Right about that time I was enjoying participating in that sexual game called...ummmm, what the heck was that called... oh yeah, DIVORCE. But I do remember for street cars we had a little trick of making a triangle on the trailing arms of those coil spring rear ends with a short piece of steel. Instantly good lift and NO wheel hop. Really a cheap fix when there was no money available! 2 pieces of metal about a foot long, drill 4 holes, 4 bolts/nuts/washers, bingo.

Those displacement on demand engines we have "today", don't know how they work, but would imagine the computer does NOT kick in the other cylinders all at one time while feeding them a heavy dose of fuel. Like guest says below, it sounds like maybe when s/he was working for someone 30 years ago that the computer DID dump it all at once. Sounds like it wasn't a USA company they were working for.

YES! That would be cool. It WOULD have to be a HACK though, the factory could NOT do it... why?... because IDIOTS would flip the switch at the wrong time (times it would cause them to lose control of the vehicle, going around corners, etc, and many other situations I am sure)... but for playing on the straight... might be fun.

The 'well known known maker of sports and luxury cars' which I'm sure confidentiality agreements, not to mention 'ealthnsafety, forbids me to name but with whom I commenced my apprenticeship with in the late '70s experimented with such a scheme. 6 (one bank) of the cylinders of their 5.3l engine were switched according to throttle postion as I recall. This proved a tiny bit abrupt, when the other half of the torque hit the rear tyre contact patches in the middle of a roundabout. I wonder if the car that was thus equipped was intended to quickly smother further discussions of that nature becuase the idea has lain dormant for a good many years since.