What If?

The reason this is front of mind is an incident tonight. I delivered a car to my client and planned to take the train home. I jumped on the Green line west and planned to take the Blue line to 7th St, then a couple transfers and I'd be home. When I got off the Green line, a big sign said Blue line is off line for months for retrofitting. There's an express bus set for Blue line riders. I got on the bus and off we went into the ghetto! The bus stopped at all the Blue line stops. Rosa Parks/Watts Tower (first stop), then deeper and deeper. The good thing is that the bus had a lot of people who would be taking the Blue line to downtown, so I fit in. We were 1/2 way through the ghetto and I hear a big slam - sounded like the bus hit something - I'm thinking it was an opening car door or something like that. We pulled over and the driver told us that someone came into his lane and hit his mirrors - broke if off, so the bus wasn't safe to drive. He had us get off and walk to the next stop, about 150 feet away. The stop was at the corner of Compton and Florence. Again, I was with the regular people who take the Blue line, but there were also the people from the hood, walking up and down the street. I was carrying my laptop bag - it's a laptop bag, but I use it as a briefcase, no laptop inside. I was worried someone would be eyeing it, so I kept it close and I made eye contact with everyone who walked by. I also envisioned what I should do if someone tried grabbed my bag. First, I'll hold the bag tighter. I weigh 210 ish, so it would be a bit difficult trying to pull me. Second, if they got my bag, what would I do. Yell for help catching him. Don't chase, unless someone grabs him. I looked at the neighborhood and there's nowhere I'd fit in if I chased him, so I have to be smart and not chase. Third, if I did have him, I could put him under citizen's arrest - call the police and turn him over to them.

If someone grabbed my bag, would I have been able to keep from chasing or hitting him? I hope I could, but I don't know. And I really wanted to keep out of those neighborhoods.

Hot Saturday night..

Sorry to hear about your adventure. Stucco repair on a hot day is bad enough.

Glad you are ok.. and that you didn't catch him.

Twice I've chased shoplifters. One time the guy made it down 7 escalators and then down Michigan Avenue with me close behind.. (didn't catch him)

Another time I intercepted a guy fleeing from a Walgreens. I knew he was up to no good with the employees in pursuit.

I was able to grab the guy off guard and fling him down right next to an upright pole. Before he could think let's tussle I grabbed his arms in an awkward way, folded them around the pole and held them together. He flailed, but couldn't get free.

Fortunately I was able to hold him until the police arrived. Unfortunately employees felt compelled to come out and give him a few swift kicks while I was holding him.

Dozens of recently pilfered lighters etc went flying from under his clothes.

The Walgreens employees who kicked him when down? Fired.

I could see why. I hate to say i had compassion for the guy, but i didn't want his ass kicked either.

When i had him pinned to the pole he pleaded for me to let him go while giving me the very very tragic tale of his horrible life.

I'm sure he's dead now and the guy's at Walgreens have moved on.. with regret.

Short answer? There isn't a one size fits all solution.

I think it's awesome that you chased after shoplifters and you caught one! Stealing lighters? Wow, that's desperation!

Here in California, they changed the law back in 2014, so if someone steals something of less than $950 value, it's a misdemeanor. If its worth $950 or more, its Grand Theft and could be a felony charge. So, a shoplifter will add the price of the items he steals and as long as the total is less than $950, he knows its only a misdemeanor. There are exceptions, but this is generally the case. A good friend of mine is an LA County Sheriff and he said the change in the law has made it almost useless to arrest someone for petty theft.

And thus the recent report on the explosion of flash mobs invading stores in California.

Hooker

Desperation and working the system to the max.

A friends neighbor was busted into and ended up doing the police work of tracking items etc.. Found the guy and was given the ho hum from the police because it was not a violent break in and the guys allowed a certain amount of petty theft every 90 days or so before any justice can be doled out.

_________________

Everyone knows it's not a good idea to confront anyone.. criminal or otherwise, but in the moment the fight or flight instinct takes over. Hopefully for the best possible outcome, but not always.

Fortunately those things happened 20+ years ago.

I agree, it's not a good idea to chase someone down, but when it happens we don't think, we just react. Years ago, when I was doing a lot of kick boxing, we were taught that it's best to have a plan, so it's a response. Reacting is dangerous, because there is no plan. Thinking about possible scenarios and how I would respond - doing this before the incident occurs. I think it's important and something that I was not prepared for two weeks ago.

A snatch and grab guy is not looking to do any serious time, he wouldn't run if he had a weapon, he would just threaten you with it and try to rob you on the street...petty theft is a misdemeanor, armed assault and robbery is a felony, big difference...So you broke several rules I adhere to...I never go out at night into a bad neighborhood, unless I have several guys with me that can take care of themselves, ie: my crew....Never stop to eat by yourself at night, take it home....don't bait ie:(no visible theft targets of value)....Snatch and grabs are runners, you need to be in much better shape than they are to catch them, because they are probably going to be more motivated,,,so, if you don't catch them in the first 10 feet, better to take a video and call 911 on the chance that there is a cop around the corner....Never carry more money than you can afford to give away....don't carry a large wallet, I carry a small card holder for all my cards and ID, and my cash I carry loose in my pocket....

Don't use credit cards for small purchases in gas stations and fast food restaurants, use cash....they steal your numbers...

Fox News: Burger King employee caught taking pictures of customer's debit card: report.

https://www.foxnews.com/food-drink/burger-king-employee-debit-card-pictures

https://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/gas-pump-atm-skimmers.php

Great advice! When I lived in Chicago, I had rules like yours - there were many places where you had to watch your back. Living here in So Cal for 32 years has given me a sense of security and unless I'm in a bad neighborhood, I've been lulled into believing that nothing is going to happen. The place where my wallet was taken isn't in a terrible neighborhood, but it's also not a good place either. During the day it's fine, but at night they come out and hang out at the gas station on the other side of the parking lot. And a couple blocks away it gets really bad. Shootings, gang turf wars, etc.

The officer that took my report told me that the detective would be more motivated to catch the guy if I lost over $950, because then it's grand theft. Since it wasn't, he said the detective would look into it, but most likely I'd never find out who the thief was.

1. Keep your wallet, keys and cell phone in your pocket.

2. When buying something at home depot or Lowe's, go to customer service to make your purchase and put it on your account ( you don't need your home depot/Lowe's card to do this ) .

3. Pay everything else with cash or with your debit card. If someone steals your debit card, they can't use it unless they have your pin ( and if someone overcharges your card, it's much easier to track down the perpetrator )

4. Leave your credit card at home, unless you're taking a trip. ( you can buy a $ 70,000 car or a $ 300.00 TV without one ) .

5. The next time you deliver a car to a client, have them give you a ride home or have an employee provide transportation.

6. Unless you are a cop, or an armed security officer, never chase anyone down the street, especially at night.

Thanks Tony,

A few years ago, I ran into a potentially dangerous situation - again, my fault for not being more aware. I was in South Central LA doing a delivery (brand new Toyota Corolla) and my client had a lot of questions. When we finally finished, it was 11pm or so and I asked her to drop me at the train station - I wasn't going to walk in that neighborhood. It was winter and I remember walking toward the ramp to get to the train station. It was a very dark area and there were two young punks there - one on each side of the entry. As I walked up, I had a plan - if they started something, I'd swing my bag as hard as I could, then punch toward the throat (I learned this years ago in martial arts), then keep swinging! I figure I'd be able to put at least a little hurt one them. As I walked past, I stood as tall as I could, stuck my chest out and walked right between the two. One guy said something and I ignored him and walked up the ramp, listening for any movement behind me. When I got to the platform, I put my back to a map and waited for the train to arrive. A friend of mine who grew up in the hood told me they would've jumped me, but they thought I might be an undercover cop - I definitely didn't fit in the area and the only person getting on a train in that neighborhood at that time must be a cop!

That night, I told myself that I'd research the area I'm doing a delivery and if the area is too rough, my client would have to meet me somewhere else. Or they'd have to meet me at my office.

Back in the 80's, I had to make a night call to the Washington Navy Yard in SE D.C. to deal with a computer problem. And I was not a happy camper to have to go.

But then a black friend of mine told me not to worry about it. He said that anyone seeing a white boy in SE D.C. would figure he's insane and they wouldn't mess with him. Turned out I didn't have any problems.

I'm told that times have changed and that the area is now much safer. But I don't have any interest in finding out.

Back in the early 90's, I had to go to DC for business trips. I remember "exploring" in a rental car and I wound up in a really bad neighborhood a short distance from the Capitol building. What amazed me is how quickly the neighborhood got bad. I don't remember the street I was on, but I know it was near the Capitol and it was going away from the White House. I remember thinking that it would get better as I drove further, but it remained pretty bad.

The other area that concerned me on the east coast was Baltimore. I was not very far from the Inner Harbor and the neighborhood got bad fast. The guys from the plant (Allied Signal/Bendix in Towson) told me to be careful in the city. I was stopped in traffic and a kid was running between cars, looking in the window to see if he could do a smash and grab. Shocked me how brash those criminals are.

The Capitol Building is about a block north of the border between NE and SE DC. You were definitely in SE and going from bad neighborhood to worse. When I lived in suburban Maryland (Silver Spring) I avoided that part of town except when the Metro carried me through it. You actually have to get to the Maryland border before it gets any safer.

And Baltimore. I went there a lot for business to. I would only get out of my car at the Inner Harbor. But I've heard that now that's getting risky too. That's really sad. A lot of money was spent to rehab that area. And, yeah, Ballmore is a lib run city too.

"... 3. Pay everything else with cash or with your debit card. ...
...
4. Leave your credit card at home, ...'

If you are using a debit card and entering a pin, people can streal it. Yes it is one more step, but it still happens. Credit cards also offer some advantages over debit cards when it comes to theft.

With debit cards, the money comes out of your account and you have to work to get it back in. With credit cards, the money doesn't come out immediately and it is often easier to keep the funds you did not spend than with a debit card.

Also debit cards typically make card holders responsible for the first $500 stolen, whereas cr dit cards limit the amount to $50 (and many waive this with prompt reporting).

If concerned perhaps build a dummy wallet that could be baited....

Sure, anything can be stolen.

My bank doesn't charge a deductible.

As for the baiting wallet, that's right up there next to my exploding bicycle idea.

"... My bank doesn't charge a deductible. ..."

Your bank may offer its own 'zero liability' feature for fraudulent charges, but there are always rules about what is covered and what isn't and if it is the banks own rule then they will ultimately decide.

The differences I am talking about are differences in US federal law concerning the way fraudulent charges are handled for credit versus debit cards.

Credit cards fall under TIL (Truth in Lending) and are broadly more consumer/borrower friendly than Debit cards which fall under Electronic Funds Transfer Act. It isn't just the cap on liability for reported fraudulent activity, thats just the quick example to point out. Signature credit offer far better protection than pin debit

Why would this be the case? It is by design, in large part because the fees merchants are charged for signature credit transaction are far higher than those for debit pin, so of course the advantage will remain with credit transactions.

Years ago - maybe 2002-03, our daughter was living in Dana Point. She would go to the local quick mart and use debit cars to buy stuff - the only place she used both her card and her mom's. One day, my better half's checking account was negative, so we checked the account and found that someone was hitting her account for $500 a day. They cleared out all the money and they maxed out the cash advance. It was taken thru the debit card that was used at the quick mart! They cloned the debit card - they ran the card on the normal terminal, then they told her it didn't work and pulled another machine from under the counter and swiped the car and had her put the pin in! The used the info to clone both cards, then they would go to different 7-11's and pull $500 per day on the ATM. They did the same with our daughter's card - she never balanced her account, so she didn't know until we found out on our card.

We went to the credit union and they temporarily put the money back in both account (memory tells me $4-5K and $2-3K), pending investigation. After the investigation, they agreed that it was fraud and they left the money back in the accounts. I asked why they used a 7-11 ATM. It's because there's no camera on the machine - remember this was 17 years ago. I asked the rep if they were going to arrest the clerk at the store. They said it wasn't worth it - too small for them to go after. The rep did tell us to use credit instead of debit, unless we felt very safe about entering the PIN. She also told us to NEVER use a PIN at the gas pump.

Things may have changed since then, but this is what I remember being told.

I realize it is just anecdotal, but good surprisongly good banking experiences (almost all of mine and most of those I hear about) seem to be the near exclusive domain of credit unions, whereas shockingly bad banking experiences (all of mine and any I can recall from others) seem to be the near exclusive domain of large for-profit banks.

Back in 2002, I worked at a credit union. Customer service was one of the top goals of the CEO. Since credit unions are non-profit organization that are owned by the members (people who have savings accounts), the board of directors has a fiduciary duty to the membership. Provide better service, products and services that the members can benefit from, support the local community, recognize excellence in customer service and reward the employee, etc.

Large banks have a different "agenda". The shareholders are the focus of the board. Make the shareholders happy first, then consider on the other things.

I'm a very security conscious person. I'm constantly evaluating my surroundings, calculating exit strategies and evaluating the people around me. This is probably from growing up in the Army and my time spent in Southeast Asia. The first thing you learned there was to always take a seat with your back to the wall and with all egress points in view.

I NEVER leave valuables in easy reach and only have card or cash in hand when doing transactions at a register. I never put my wallet (or even car keys) down or out of my grasp until my cash or card is back in it and is immediately put back in my pocket. In suspect areas my wallet is in a front pocket, not a back or jacket pocket.

I also conceal carry because I'm too old to fight and too slow to run, and am on hyper alert when people are around with covered heads, especially hoodies in hot weather.

In all likelihood if your scenario happened here in the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia and I shot the guy, it's unlikely I'd go to jail but even if I did the message would be delivered. That is, he messed with the wrong person. I would never live in any anti-gun state like California.

I once worked for a year in a Radio Shack strip mall store in a rough section of Virginia Beach, VA. I often rode my motorcycle to work and let my co-workers, more black than white, know that I had a concealed carry permit. That store had been robbed a number of times before I got there but never when I worked in it. As far as I'm concerned the preemptive notice I broadcast likely saved a bunch of trouble. And I was the one who usually closed the store at night and took the day's proceeds to the bank.

Call me paranoid but I've had little trouble throughout my life since my Vietnam days and I've wandered a lot of the world. Awareness and mental simulations, especially in a new environment, can make a big difference and have served me well.

Not paranoid at all. Very smart!

Good advice - back to the wall, so nobody can come behind you.

Watch all entry points to the building, so you also know how to get out.

Wallet in your front pocket in bad areas. I've heard of people having their wallets stolen buy someone cutting their back pocket open.

Hoodies in hot weather. I've seen people walking around with full seats in 115 + degree weather - and with a hoodie on. And they're just walking down the street!

Hoodies to me have always been too convenient of a fashion statement. In Virginia we have laws dealing with facial concealment.

Read here

But I'm not sure how well enforced this law is.

I love that law! Zuckerberg better keep out of the state!

We have a law here in CA. The homeless now have the right to be on public land at any time of the day, unless it's in a place where the closing time is posted - certain parks, etc. The police can no longer arrest someone for vagrancy and someone can sleep on the sidewalk in front of my house or a store, as long as it doesn't impede foot traffic or access by a disabled person. I was told this by my friend, a former lieutenant for the police dept. The liberals are killing this state!

Free advice is worth what you paid for it. Every situation is different.

I've seen some pretty bizarre pieces of advice here.

In my former life, I dealt with the local PD on a (irregular) weekly basis. If I had a suspect in sight, and attempted to follow them, (from even a safe distance) PD always advised me to break off and let them handle it. You just never know if the guy will turn around and shoot you.

Second, know how to contact the credit card companies for each card you carry and call them immediately and report the cards as stolen.

The perp wants the cash and cards only. The odds are very good that the rest of the contents of your wallet will end up in the landfill.

My two cents worth.

Hi Lyn,

Good advice. Basically the same thing my friend told me, except instead of a gun, he said that a baseball bat could be waiting for me as I turned a corner.

I was able to call the credit card companies and my credit union for my debit card. All were cancelled and to date, nobody has tried to use them.

I think the thief planned to leave my wallet in an empty lot in the bad area I chased him - there are lots of empty lots in that area. Why didn't he? I have a hunch. I'll post in a minute.

Thanks again.

Update:

I received a call from the local US Bank (near where the wallet was stolen). The gal told me that my wallet was found in the night deposit box. She found my number, because of an account I have with them. I picked up my wallet and of course the cash was gone. My drivers license was there. My DMV license was there. Two debit cards, four credit cards, stamps, business cards, insurance cards, checks (blank checks I keep in my wallet) and some receipts and post it's - all in the wallet! The credit and debit cards were stopped the night it was stolen. I didn't receive a notice that someone tried to use them. It seems like their interest was only in the cash. And the odd thing is that someone took the time to put my wallet in a bank night deposit box.

I'm very happy, but puzzled - did the thief put it there? Or a family/friend? Or maybe someone found the wallet? Funny how they didn't call the police - leads me to believe it was the thief or a friend. Very odd, but I am happy!

Awesome..

Maybe your expletives of wisdom gave the thief something to think about.. like .. I don't want that dude on my bad side.

Sleep well.

Additional information I think you'll find interesting.

Going back to the night my wallet was stolen. After I chased the punk and his friend, I returned to the take out joint. I was still fuming and I asked the workers who that kid was. The girl behind the counter said that she had never seen him before, but she'll be on the lookout. The owner said he didn't get a good look at him, since he was in the back. The delivery guy said "I wasn't here, I was at the gas station on the corner". Odd answer. When I asked him if he heard my screaming at the guy, he said he didn't see or hear anything. Funny, because everyone who was in the area turned to see what was happening - I was yelling at the top of my lungs and I wasn't nice - something that would draw attention.

I was talking to the owner and I told him I was upset, but the money isn't the issue. I have stuff in my wallet that I need for work. I told him how important it was to get the things back.

As we were watching the video, I noticed something. When I was at the front counter ordering, I pulled out my wallet and grabbed a $20. My wallet was very thick (mostly my stuff, but to someone watching, it looked like it was loaded with cash). The delivery guy was soon texting someone on his phone. Then he sat at the table nearest the front door. About five minutes later, the thief walks in and grabs a menu from the counter then leaves. The delivery guy is texting during the entire time. After the thief leaves, the delivery guy leaves. A couple minutes later, the thief comes in and grabs my wallet.

This take out place isn't a busy shop. I doubt the thief would randomly walk in to see if someone has left their wallet on the table. I could be wrong, but I think the delivery guy set the whole thing up. When he saw how upset I was, he probably told the thief to put it somewhere I'd be able to get it back. I don't think he put it in the night deposit box, but maybe. Most likely he had a friend/family member do it.

That's my take. What does everyone here think?

Maybe you can prove your theory. You could wait a few weeks then reset the situation. Have a friend reenact the scene ( same time / location ) . This time have a micro GPS tracker concealed in the wallet ( like tile ) .

Of course, you probably have better things to do anyway.

I don't think it would work, because they'd remember me. I made a pretty big stink about it.

But I could send someone else in with a big fat wallet and I could wait in a car outside. Ooooh! If I saw that kid!!! He wouldn't get away this time!

Actually, it would be a very, very, very good idea to make a plan about what I'd do. I'd have to consider both legal and liability issues. Just today, I spoke with my better half about protecting our assets, so we can retirement comfortably.

That's great! You're lucky. And somewhere a good Samaritan is getting some good karma.

At my last job, the outside crew would turn wallets in to me. Never any cash, except once when we found a lost wallet before anyone else did. There was about $10.00 in it and I was able to track her (owner) down, at a group home. She was in tears when she opened it and saw that her money was still there. There's usually enough information in them to find the owners. I considered it part of my job to do this.

The delivery guy may well have been in on this, but how to prove it is the problem.

You've had a good ending to a bad story. And learned a good lesson to never trust anybody.

Yes, I consider myself very lucky. I should've played the lotto that day!

I didn't think I'd ever see my wallet and the contents again. My gut feeling is that the driver was in on it, but there's no way to prove it. A few minutes ago, I posted to this site and I actually gave it some thought, but the chance of it happening again is very low.

I'm going to count my blessings, accept the change I have to make and I'm also going to do more to protect my assets, so I can one day retire well. Chasing someone down is asking for a lawsuit here in CA. It doesn't matter if the thief is in the wrong, what matters is that I could be arrested for assault and sued in civil court. I didn't work this hard to give it to a common thief.

"... The delivery guy was soon texting someone on his phone. Then he sat at the table nearest the front door. About five minutes later, the thief walks in and grabs a menu from the counter then leaves. The delivery guy is texting during the entire time. ..."

.

I'm not sure this constitutes suspicious activoty in today's world. It might be have been more suspicious had the delivery driver not been texting and had been engaged more with the nonvirtual world.

Still, aside from cultural norms being what thwy are, the fact the delivery guy was texting the entire time the theif made his scoping entry suggest it wasn't related. How much useful info could a conspirator text about a target for snatching a wallet at that point? The theif obviously wasn't reading texts and it wasn't as if there was a need to distinguish you from other customers as there were no others....

I'm not sure of your total time waiting before tthis happened, but that might provide some additional insight.

Also, did you ask the owner and the workers (independently) about the previous incident similar to this? It would be nice to know if there was one or more. The owner certainly would not want his restaraunt to be know for that type of thing, but he wouldn't want to seem complicit by being caught trying ro cover up an incident you might have have found out about either.

A few things make me think he's in on it. First, his response was defensive. Second, he lied about not seeing the thief. Third, a thief wouldn't do a grab and run with a big guy sitting right near the front door.

Text could've been: Someone with a fat wallet just came in and ordered. He's sitting at the far table with his face to the door and his wallet and car keys are sitting in front of him. There's someone else here waiting. I'll let you know when he leaves.

Seems fishy, but maybe it's me. I'm ready to let it go now. I have my wallet back with all my stuff. And it's taught me to be more careful and to avoid places where people like the thief don't stick out. Most importantly, don't hit anyone if they're running away.

Interesting take on credit cards vs debit cards. The article seems to prefer using a credit card, since it gives the purchaser more protection against fraud. Also, the potential liability is lower with a credit card.

Here's the article. It follows what I was told about using credit vs a PIN based debit.

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/050214/credit-vs-debit-cards-which-better.asp?utm_source=personalized&utm_campaign=bouncex&utm_term=18249571&utm_medium=email