Previous in Forum: Viscosity of Gases   Next in Forum: MTS TestStar 490.01 & Bionix 858 Control Using Labview/Matlab-Simulink
Close
Close
Close
20 comments
Rate Comments: Nested
Member

Join Date: Feb 2021
Posts: 5

Analog Ammeter Low Reading

02/11/2021 12:08 AM

MCC Bucket feeding pump motor the, the current in MCC is showing 37 A, while the analog Ammeter at field near the pump shows very low reading, the CT is 100:5, the analog Ammeter is range 0 to 150, and it is 100:5, 1 VA. Is there any reason for that low reading? The motor full load current is 53.2 A.

The scale of reading is 150 each 50 divided into 8 scales, the reading is below the first step, the Ammeter is moving coil. it is in the local control station (LCS) near the motor which both are around 500 meters away from the substation the cable is directly buried. The CT is in the MCC Bucket in the substation.

Register to Reply
Pathfinder Tags: CT & Ammeter
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing, in the nation formerly known as Great Britain. Kettle's on.
Posts: 32175
Good Answers: 839
#1

Re: Analog Ammeter low reading

02/11/2021 2:24 AM

One of the possibilities it that the mechanical load is very low, and the motor is drawing very little current; it's difficult to see from here.

__________________
"Did you get my e-mail?" - "The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw, 1856
Register to Reply
Member

Join Date: Feb 2021
Posts: 5
#2
In reply to #1

Re: Analog Ammeter low reading

02/11/2021 2:28 AM

But the reading in the Mcc side in substation is 37 A,,

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing, in the nation formerly known as Great Britain. Kettle's on.
Posts: 32175
Good Answers: 839
#3
In reply to #2

Re: Analog Ammeter low reading

02/11/2021 2:38 AM

So?

__________________
"Did you get my e-mail?" - "The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw, 1856
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: About 4000 miles from the center of the earth (+/-100 mi)
Posts: 9910
Good Answers: 1141
#4

Re: Analog Ammeter Low Reading

02/11/2021 5:59 AM

Is the pump running? If yes, there could be a fault with the ammeter near the pump, faulty meter or loose connection to the CT. (De-energize before handling CT circuitry).

If pump is not running, there could be a short in the wire.

Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Member

Join Date: Feb 2021
Posts: 5
#6
In reply to #4

Re: Analog Ammeter Low Reading

02/11/2021 7:43 AM

the pump is running, we experience this issue when we changed the CT and Ammeters for many pumps, is the orientation of the CT make difference?

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 4)
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing, in the nation formerly known as Great Britain. Kettle's on.
Posts: 32175
Good Answers: 839
#9
In reply to #6

Re: Analog Ammeter Low Reading

02/11/2021 8:59 AM

What happens when the original equipment is swapped back in?

__________________
"Did you get my e-mail?" - "The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw, 1856
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 44.56024"N 15.307971E
Posts: 8277
Good Answers: 270
#17
In reply to #6

Re: Analog Ammeter Low Reading

02/12/2021 9:43 AM

Orientation will make a difference.CT are marked for direction,with an arrow pointing to LOAD side.

__________________
"A man never stands so tall as when he stoops to help a child." "Never argue with a stupid person.They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience" "To create an apple pie from scratch, first you must create a universe"
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Hemel Hempstead, UK
Posts: 5826
Good Answers: 322
#5

Re: Analog Ammeter Low Reading

02/11/2021 6:24 AM

I'm asking this question to try to understand what you're talking about (I'm unfamiliar with the field).

"The scale of reading is 150 each 50 divided into 8 scales, the reading is below the first step"

So each step is 6.25 Amps.

You're reading just below 6.25 Amps; and, you should be reading 1.85 Amps; how does that rate as low reading?

---------------------------------------

AC or DC?

What does 1 VA (Watt?) mean in this context?

__________________
If you spend all your time looking for people and things to complain about: trust me, you will find plenty to complain about.
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Member

Join Date: Feb 2021
Posts: 5
#7
In reply to #5

Re: Analog Ammeter Low Reading

02/11/2021 7:51 AM

Exactly you are right, but the conflict the MCC Bucket digital meter is reading 37 A

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Hemel Hempstead, UK
Posts: 5826
Good Answers: 322
#16
In reply to #7

Re: Analog Ammeter Low Reading

02/12/2021 8:18 AM

Let me try again; let's assume that the reading of 37 Amps in the machine control centre is correct.

The current transformer has a ratio of 20 to 1 so the current in the secondary will be 1.85 Amps. Surely there is a better range on the ammeter than the 0 to 150 Amp range.

I've obviously got the wrong end of the stick, so, tell me what I've got wrong.

__________________
If you spend all your time looking for people and things to complain about: trust me, you will find plenty to complain about.
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Member

Join Date: Feb 2021
Posts: 5
#8
In reply to #5

Re: Analog Ammeter Low Reading

02/11/2021 8:08 AM

it is AC, the VA is the CT burden

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing, in the nation formerly known as Great Britain. Kettle's on.
Posts: 32175
Good Answers: 839
#11
In reply to #8

Re: Analog Ammeter Low Reading

02/11/2021 9:40 AM

One might expect a difference between the "perceived power" and the "real power" if the motor is lightly-loaded. On AC, a lightly-loaded motor behaves more like a coil of wire with plenty of inductance than a convector heater that has a negligible amount of inductance. This introduces a phase lag between the voltage wave and the current wave.

Were the two measurements seen at site of those two different things, then that would explain the difference in readings.

However, given no response to the question over the actual mechanical load on the motor, this is all just supposition...

__________________
"Did you get my e-mail?" - "The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw, 1856
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1686
Good Answers: 116
#12
In reply to #8

Re: Analog Ammeter Low Reading

02/11/2021 11:57 AM

1/ You write that the ammeter is moving coil - is this a DC instrument?? In which case a rectifier may have failed internally.

2/ What exactly are the words and symbols on the front of the meter - and any label on its rear?

3/ Have you interchanged this meter with a spare or identical one from a working panel with same meter?

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing, in the nation formerly known as Great Britain. Kettle's on.
Posts: 32175
Good Answers: 839
#10

Re: Analog Ammeter Low Reading

02/11/2021 9:33 AM

An old adage in instrumentation circles:

"Never put two measuring instruments on a process. They'll never agree, and you won't know which one to trust." - Anon.

__________________
"Did you get my e-mail?" - "The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw, 1856
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Been there, done that. Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 15600
Good Answers: 981
#13

Re: Analog Ammeter Low Reading

02/11/2021 4:02 PM

Were the instruments ever calibrated since leaving the factory?

Do the instruments actually measure the same thing? An alternate path (leakage) might be measured by one meter but not the other. The frequency response of one meter might not read non-linear harmonic components.

__________________
"Don't disturb my circles." translation of Archimedes last words
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 343
Good Answers: 22
#14

Re: Analog Ammeter Low Reading

02/12/2021 1:15 AM

Friend Mrlaron,

I suppose the meter in MCC and that in the field are not on the same CT. This I say, because had both been on the same CT, both meters would have read the same.

it seems to me that the CT 100:5A, 1VA CT is not proper for supplying an instrument that is 500m away (It is OK if the meter were in the MCC itself).

I think the CT is getting saturated due to burden of 500m cable and with 5A rated secondary being much above the rated burden 1VA. This is the reason for very low reading in the field ammeter.

I suggest you to look at the possibility of wiring 4-20mA output from the meter in MCC to that in the field to overcome the problem.

__________________
Raghunath
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
4
Guru

Join Date: May 2018
Location: Under the spreading Bunya Trees, South Burnett, Queensland, Australia
Posts: 807
Good Answers: 65
#15

Re: Analog Ammeter Low Reading

02/12/2021 2:16 AM

Get a true RMS clip on ammeter and measure the current in the circuit in each phase separately. That will point to the likely cause of the discrepancy and go from there.

__________________
Hare today, goon tomorrow!
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 4)
3
Power-User

Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 160
Good Answers: 14
#18

Re: Analog Ammeter Low Reading

02/12/2021 2:07 PM

What is the distance between the CT and Ammeter in the field? You indicated the CT burden was 1VA; I suspect the wiring from the CT to the ammeter is too small and needs to be a smaller wire gauge or switch to a CT with a greater burden capability. At 1VA the wiring resistance plus the meter-burden has to be less than 1VA, for the CT you've indicated. At 100:5 37A would be 1.85A. The wiring load should be calculated at the full 5A on the CT. The maximum wiring resistance calculation would be (CT-Burden-Meter-Burden)/(5^2). Without the Meter the maximum resistance with a 1VA CT would be 1/25 ohm @ 5A. Also note the resistance is the loop resistance between the meter and the CT.

If I remember correctly 16AWG is the typical wire size on the smaller CT's. 16 AWG wire has a resistance of 4.1 ohm per 1000 ft. If you used the same wire size to extend to the meter the maximum length would be 6 ft. 1000/4.1*1/25=12.2 ft. which, when divided by 2 for loop resistance is 6.1 ft.

Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 3)
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 1367
Good Answers: 105
#19

Re: Analog Ammeter Low Reading

02/12/2021 7:00 PM

The wire size between the CT and the meter is to light a gauge, you may need up to #10AWG for that length, maybe #8AWG. Also, your meter is normally a 5 amp full scale movement, so your meter would normally be 0-100A scale for a 100/5 CT.

Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 44.56024"N 15.307971E
Posts: 8277
Good Answers: 270
#20

Re: Analog Ammeter Low Reading

02/14/2021 1:42 PM

Confucius say:Man with 2 watches never know what time it is.

__________________
"A man never stands so tall as when he stoops to help a child." "Never argue with a stupid person.They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience" "To create an apple pie from scratch, first you must create a universe"
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Register to Reply 20 comments

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

67model (1); HiTekRedNek (2); Mrlaron (4); PWSlack (5); R_i_c_h (1); raghun (1); Randall (2); redfred (1); Rixter (1); rwilliams (1); Stef (1)

Previous in Forum: Viscosity of Gases   Next in Forum: MTS TestStar 490.01 & Bionix 858 Control Using Labview/Matlab-Simulink

Advertisement