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Electric School Bus; Seems Like a Natural

09/19/2021 10:27 AM

School busses are only used for a few hours/day; the rest of the time they sit, so recharging is not a problem. And in use they don't go far, so range is not a problem. Now they do make lots of stops, but with regenerative braking they could recover much of the energy, so batteries can be even smaller.

Your thoughts?

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#1

Re: electric school bus; seems like a natural

09/19/2021 5:42 PM

Just like the rest of us, it works for some but not for all....so not quite ready for prime time yet...

https://thomasbuiltbuses.com/resources/articles/common-drawbacks-of-electric-school-buses/

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#6
In reply to #1

Re: electric school bus; seems like a natural

09/20/2021 6:29 AM

How much does an EV school bus cost?

"A full-sized 40-foot electric school bus can cost $230,000 to $400,000 per vehicle, two to almost four times the cost of a $110,000 diesel-powered school bus." Mar 22, 2021

That's a big difference in upfront cost, not to mention infrastructure requirements and driver training necessary....add to that the range of average 100 miles and charging time required, and it won't work for most districts....

..."With the national school bus fleet nearing 500,000 vehicles, the state of New York has the largest number, at nearly 45,000, according to School Bus Fleet. Texas ranks second with 40,000 school buses, while Illinois, California and Pennsylvania have between 20,000 and 30,000 buses." Dec 18, 2014

That's a total of $55 billion dollars for diesel vs times 3 to 4 that for electric...say $200 billion plus another $100 billion for infrastructure and training costs....when have you ever heard of a school district having excess money?

https://www.newgeography.com/content/004801-school-buses-americas-largest-transit-system

..."The district has deployed 856 bus routes that will travel a cumulative average of 48,100 miles per day. "... = 56.19 miles per bus per day average.....Duval county Florida

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#2

Re: electric school bus; seems like a natural

09/19/2021 9:57 PM

Where there is higher population densities, yes. Now, if you need to run the track team three counties over . . .

Charging infrastructure might need to be installed at the schools or at other locations. In many school districts, the bus leaves the depot in the morning and doesn't return until much later in the afternoon or sometimes in the evening if sports are involved.

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#3

Re: electric school bus; seems like a natural

09/20/2021 12:12 AM

solar chargers on roof of bus could keep batteries charged. Athletic and Band busses

need greater range as do special field trip busses. Some conventional units will still be needed but overall an excellent idea

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#4
In reply to #3

Re: electric school bus; seems like a natural

09/20/2021 3:41 AM

Solar chargers on the roof, sorry just won't cut it, the area of the roof for panels would not be great enough to hold more than 3 to 5 KW of panels. Don't know what school hours are run on your side of pond but between start and finish time here it is 6 hours so 30KWhr input.

Oh and what about the cloudy rainy days, and foggy days. Considering the school bus routes here can be 100Km on each trip, the school busses here are owned by contractors who quote on a year by year basis.

Charging infrastructure, not here, the ability to keep power on to households is a struggle in the storm season, so the only place this would work would be in the cities. When school is in the buses go home to the owners property. I can't even get 3 phase power onto my house, not needed the power supply company says, so I don't see the energy company rushing to upgrade their failing network.

Sorry but doubt its viability this side of the pond.

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#5

Re: Electric School Bus; Seems Like a Natural

09/20/2021 5:49 AM

In small town and rural areas like where I live school buses normally spend their off time at the drivers' homes. And some of the routes are quite lengthy. They only make it to the depot for maintenance and are fueled at regular gas stations for the most part.

These communities would need to have detailed specs to see if EV buses are feasible.

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#7

Re: Electric School Bus; Seems Like a Natural

09/20/2021 6:32 AM

I'm Not sure why everyone seems to be stuck on electric vehicles these days. Its the only topic on most folks minds. Brainwashed by a few do gooders, so you have secretly assisted these do gooders in their mission.

Hydrogen cells have been around for a long time and many vehicle manufacturers are building hydrogen vehicles. Adelaide has hydrogen buses running around the city. They work very well and with no pollution.

So why are the do-gooders not brainwashing us with hydrogen cells? Is their mission only to have electric propulsion?

With Tesla and GM Bolt batteries going on fire, what difference is a hydrogen cell going to be as a risk? I guess none. Hydrogen vehicles work very well in Scotland.

With regenerative braking, it will not make up for the power lost on uphills or acceleration, therefore the gain is far less than the output. So reducing battery size, to reduce weight and charging time, simply makes the whole idea redundant. Cost saving but useless in the long term.

I think it is time this electric band wagon was unplugged and buried in a deep hole and people woke up to the fact, they were being taken for fools and lead down the garden path.

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#8
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Re: Electric School Bus; Seems Like a Natural

09/20/2021 6:49 AM

....and how is the hydrogen produced?

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#9
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Re: Electric School Bus; Seems Like a Natural

09/20/2021 7:36 AM

By rubbing a philosophers stone on some magic!

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20190327-the-tiny-islands-leading-the-way-in-hydrogen-power

And the above info has happened and operating quite well for them and their ferry is operational. Its not all science fiction and fear using hydrogen.

I was joking about the philosophers stone. You only need the magic.

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#10
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Re: Electric School Bus; Seems Like a Natural

09/20/2021 8:23 AM

The costs associated don't seem to be present...and that's for good reason...it's not financially viable...possible?, yes... practical?, no....

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/04/26/hydrogen-cars-have-4x-annual-fuel-cost-2-70-times-the-carbon-debt-as-electric-vehicles/

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#11
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Re: Electric School Bus; Seems Like a Natural

09/20/2021 2:43 PM

Uh, regen braking recovers any kinetic energy of the vehicle, including that produced by uphills and acceleration.

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#12
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Re: Electric School Bus; Seems Like a Natural

09/20/2021 3:24 PM

Entropy rules.

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#13
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Re: Electric School Bus; Seems Like a Natural

09/20/2021 3:27 PM

Uh Hu! so on te up hill the motor is just that, a motor, consuming electrical power. On acceleration the motor is consuming electrical power. So the motor is not only consuming power but generating it too back to the batteries. Hmm!

That is a novel concept indeed.

On the downhill, and under no acceleration condition, if the vehicle is moving above certain speed, usually above 15km/h the kinetic energy will allow the motor to become a generator and the efficiency of capturing this energy is reported to vary from 16% to 70% (Boretti, 2013).

Maybe you want to reconsider your understanding of kinetic energy and dealing with the forces of gravity on a weighted object and that of friction as opposed to energy consumed.

A hint. In an EV, the power source is the battery that supplies electric energy to operate the motor. The motor supplies energy to rotate the vehicle wheels which in turn produces kinetic energy. The motor can operate in reverse.

When a motor operates in reverse it acts as a generator. When the vehicle slows down, the generator converts the kinetic energy into electrical energy to charge the vehicle's battery.

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#25
In reply to #7

Re: Electric School Bus; Seems Like a Natural

09/23/2021 12:51 PM

I drive an EV daily so I take a slight offense to being lumped in with your so called "do Gooders".

My sole purpose for driving my EV is dollars and cents. when driving my previous car 113 miles daily at 33Mpg it was costing me $320 per month.

Currently my EV gets me 4.2 miles per Kwh. monthly charging cost on my home charger is $62 per month.

The environmental impact is collateral to me, and before you go jumping on the dirty battery bandwagon, I am well aware that the cost of lithium mining and impact it has as well as the possibility of dealing with the recycling of the batteries. So don't lump us all in the same category.

It just made sense to me so I did it.

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#26
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Re: Electric School Bus; Seems Like a Natural

09/23/2021 2:00 PM

You can take offense if you like. Not my problem, Thank God for freedom of speech and writing.

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#27
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Re: Electric School Bus; Seems Like a Natural

09/23/2021 4:31 PM

Freedom of speech is a quaint concept.

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#28
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Re: Electric School Bus; Seems Like a Natural

09/23/2021 4:35 PM

And seemingly becoming antiquated...

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#30
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Re: Electric School Bus; Seems Like a Natural

09/23/2021 6:18 PM

Well, don't let it die. It's not a 'give away' item.

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#31
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Re: Electric School Bus; Seems Like a Natural

09/23/2021 6:59 PM

For me, it won't die until I do no matter how hard anyone tries to cancel me.

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#32
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Re: Electric School Bus; Seems Like a Natural

09/23/2021 7:50 PM

They'll have to pry "it" out of my cold, dead hands. Forty years ago, I swore an oath . . .

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#33
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Re: Electric School Bus; Seems Like a Natural

09/23/2021 8:41 PM

As an Army brat I was born under the UCMJ. And between my own military time and security clearances I've taken the oath at least 7 times. Happily, I might add.

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#34
In reply to #33

Re: Electric School Bus; Seems Like a Natural

09/23/2021 10:27 PM

I wasn't a 'brat' but this was home sweet, home 18 years ago.

But I continue to "serve" in one of the legions of beltway bandits.

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#29
In reply to #25

Re: Electric School Bus; Seems Like a Natural

09/23/2021 5:34 PM

If cost of mileage is your only concern you should look at a hydrogen fueled car, they include the fuel for the term of the lease...but we all know total cost of ownership includes other criteria....For the long commuter, such as yourself, the EV probably does make sense, if your charging rates are that low....but costs vary from state to state, so do incentives...not everybody that drives an EV is a do-gooder, but he is on their team....

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#37
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Re: Electric School Bus; Seems Like a Natural

09/28/2021 8:37 AM

The states will eventually charge a mileage tax on EV's similar to the gasoline tax today for road maintenance,etc.

Some states have already increased fuel tax due to decreased usage and higher mileage vehicles.

The mileage will be uploaded from the on board computer and deducted from your account., or charged at the recharge station.

I still think embedded transformer primaries will be the eventual solution.

Embedded at intersections during vehicle stops in urban areas,and in the highways on the interstates.

There will need to be massive power distribution additions before battery power can replace fossil fuel vehicles.

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#35
In reply to #25

Re: Electric School Bus; Seems Like a Natural

09/25/2021 4:36 AM

Then there is this issue with electric cars...battery pack failure

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#14

Re: Electric School Bus; Seems Like a Natural

09/20/2021 4:01 PM

...."It’s a big investment for a cash-strapped district that now sees itself on the cutting edge of technology.

The California Energy Commission spent $90 million to put 200 electric buses on the road across the state. And even though they are expensive -- costing about $340,000 each, compared to less than $200,000 for a diesel bus --"...

Cash strapped....no wonder

They are running out of water, experiencing rolling blackouts as the grid collapses, and burning to the ground, but they can afford electric school buses? Maybe they can at least transform the old buses in homes for the homeless...or bus them out of sight?

https://www.kcra.com/article/twin-rivers-school-district-electric-buses/30275955#

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#15
In reply to #14

Re: Electric School Bus; Seems Like a Natural

09/20/2021 6:13 PM

Let's see: $340,000 - $200,000 = $140,000 cost difference.

Fuel Costs: Diesel buses: $0.87 / mile (which is about 5 miles per gallon. Seems low to me, but whatever.)

Electric buses: $0.19 / mile

Fuel cost difference: $0.68 /mile

Fuel Cost to Purchase Cost Cross-Over Point:

140,000 / 0.68 = 206,000 miles

Maintenance costs need to be figured in as well. But no word what it will cost to replace the batteries when that needs to happen.

This could make sense in some situations, but certainly not all situations. Somebody has to be first. Then we can all learn from their experiences.

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#17
In reply to #15

Re: Electric School Bus; Seems Like a Natural

09/21/2021 12:18 AM

Don't forget oil and coolant cost; electric vehicles don't have much of that. Synthetic oil for a 7.3 l gasoline engine is about $50 per oil change (10 K miles), plus 2-3 filters at $9 each during that period. Add ~$40 labor cost (probably a low estimate for a school district union shop). This will be over $0.01 per mile. Oil for a diesel engine is priced about 10% higher, plus there's the cost of urea exhaust treatment fluid for newer buses.

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#22
In reply to #17

Re: Electric School Bus; Seems Like a Natural

09/21/2021 8:20 PM

If you change your diesel oil every 10K miles, you're wasting money. Even after 30,000 miles on one oil change, the TBN on the oil in my 6.7L Cummins was still fine. The lab report indicated that I could go with 30,000 miles between changes. I generally shoot for 15,000 to 20,000 miles. The Rotella T4 is about $13 per gallon and my oil change is four gallons with the filter. I only change the filter every other oil change. Any fleet interested in not wasting oil and labor, will use a testing house to analyze the oil. I use the Rotella T6 full synthetic in my 3.0L Mercedes diesel because the Mercedes engine is a piece of crap and if you don't baby it, it won't last.

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#23
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Re: Electric School Bus; Seems Like a Natural

09/21/2021 11:43 PM

The numbers are for the Ford 7.3 L gasoline engine in the late model Bluebird Vision bus, which is specified at 8 quarts including filter and 10,000 mile oil change intervals. I did not look up filter changing recommendations, but for automobiles using synthetic oil, changing the filter at 3000 - 5000 miles is recommended under severe usage. School bus driving in an urban area qualifies as that.

The pricing I used is for Rotella Gas Truck oil at $32 per 10 qt. container and T6 Diesel at $38 per 10 qts. Evidently you have found a better price than Walmart's online quote.

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#24
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Re: Electric School Bus; Seems Like a Natural

09/22/2021 5:36 PM

Sam's Club, 6 gallons in a box.

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#18
In reply to #15

Re: Electric School Bus; Seems Like a Natural

09/21/2021 2:05 AM

Don't forget the infrastructure needed to charge the buses...one for each bus...

est cost $500k each....

..."The baseline scenario invested in four BEBs and four depot chargers, received a grant of $1,500,000 (or $375,000 per bus with charger), and saw an NPV of $785,000 over the 12-year bus life"...

https://afdc.energy.gov/files/u/publication/financial_analysis_be_transit_buses.pdf

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#16
In reply to #14

Re: Electric School Bus; Seems Like a Natural

09/20/2021 6:36 PM

There you go now, Hydrogen buses; save the world from CO2 and make H2O while driving the homeless around and still have lots of change left over from $90m to get them some sandwiches and a cup of tea.

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#19
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Re: Electric School Bus; Seems Like a Natural

09/21/2021 7:24 AM

No not quite....

..."Meanwhile, making clean hydrogen is energy intensive and you throw away a lot of the energy. Let’s assume they get 10 MWh of electricity from a wind farm. Then they convert water to hydrogen and oxygen with the electricity. High-efficiency PEM electrolysis is about 80% efficient (projected to rise to a theoretical peak of 86%). That takes about 50 kWh per kilogram, so you have a couple of hundred kilograms of hydrogen.

You’ve thrown away 20% of the electricity and are left with 8 MWh embodied in the hydrogen.

Then you compress it, store it, ship it, and pump it. All of those things take energy. Let’s say another 10%. So now you have about 8 MWh in the 200 kg of hydrogen that you have spent 11 MWh on far.

And then you put it in a Toyota Mirai at its best case 60% efficiency and throw away another 40%. That means you get 4.8 MWh of energy out of the 11 MWh you’ve spent. Those 200 kg will allow a Toyota Mirai to drive about about 13,000 miles. Let’s be nice and say the retail price of hydrogen gets down to $10 per kg. That will cost you $2,000 to drive those 13,000 miles.

What if you put that 11 MWh in to a Tesla Model S P100D? Well, that car travels about 100 miles for every 30 kWh of electricity you feed it. That means 11 MWh will allow a Tesla Model S to drive about 37,000 miles. That’s about three times as far for the same energy input. And the average cost of electricity in the USA (not the night time cost when you actually charge) is 12 cents per kWh, so those 11 MWh will only cost you about $1,300.

Just to finish this off, the gas car at 28 miles per gallon and 200 gallons will travel about 5,600 miles at a cost of about $500."...

That's not including the infrastructure to produce the hydrogen at about a million per...

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#20
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Re: Electric School Bus; Seems Like a Natural

09/21/2021 10:53 AM

Good information but I feel maybe biased somewhat. Quite contrary to what I have found in researching as it all evolves around the US. Your values seem contradict much as for $13.85, which it currently seem to be around California with over 200 hydrogen stations being available in that area. The predicted price is around $8.00 with fuel station taxes and profits added. How true this may be, I am not sure, so I will further check my research.

However, they certainly seem to be selling a lot of hydrogen vehicles on your side, and your military seem to be testing the commercial Chevrolet Colorado ZH since 2017.

https://teaguechevrolet.wordpress.com/2017/01/13/chevrolet-colorado-zh2/

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#21
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Re: Electric School Bus; Seems Like a Natural

09/21/2021 11:16 AM

The $8 figure you quote is for reformed hydrogen from natural gas, I was quoting green hydrogen production from wind turbines....There is nowhere near 200 hydrogen fueling stations in California...

The table shows how many fuel cell cars have been sold and leased, how many fuel cell buses are on the road, and how many hydrogen stations are open in California.

Numbers as of September 1, 2021Total
FCEVs—Fuel cell cars sold and leased in US*

11,187

FCEBs—Fuel cell buses in operation in California48
Fuel cell buses in development in California58
Hydrogen stations available in California**

48

Retail hydrogen stations in

construction in California***

11
Retail hydrogen stations in

permitting in California***

29
Retail hydrogen stations

proposed in California***

15
Retail hydrogen stations

funded, but not in development in California***

72
Total retail hydrogen stations in development in California***127
Retail truck hydrogen stations in construction in California4
Retail truck hydrogen stations

funded, but not in development in California****

5

https://cafcp.org/by_the_numbers

How much is a gallon of hydrogen fuel in California? Currently, a kg of hydrogen costs between $10 and $17 at California hydrogen stations, which equals about $5 to $8.50 per gallon of gasoline, however, manufacturers include free hydrogen fuel for several years when selling FCEVs.

FAQs - California Hydrogen Business Council

https://www.californiahydrogen.org › hydrogen-faq

""How much does a tank of hydrogen cost?

Hydrogen fuel cell cars now average between 312 miles and 380 miles in range, according to the EPA. They will cost about $80 to refuel from empty (most drivers don't let the tank run down to empty before they refuel, so end up refueling at a cost of $55 to $65)."Feb 23, 2019

360mi cost $80. = 4.5 mi per dollar

11,000 out of 15 million = not a lot

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#36

Re: Electric School Bus; Seems Like a Natural

09/28/2021 8:28 AM

Teenagers have unlimited energy.

Simply put pedals under each seat and make them pedal the bus.

( Of course there will have to be a speed regulator on board to prevent speeding).

This will get our soft shelled kids back in shape,and save energy at the same time.

A win win solution!

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#38
In reply to #36

Re: Electric School Bus; Seems Like a Natural

09/28/2021 9:55 AM

OOOH. That might be construed as 'slavery'. If we called them a workforce does it fall under renewable energy sources. If so, the bus company could get a grant and be viable.

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#39
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Re: Electric School Bus; Seems Like a Natural

09/28/2021 2:08 PM

Anything can be classified as involuntary servitude.

You really do not own anything.

You have the illusion of owning it.

If you fail to pay taxes on "Your" property,you will lose it,and it will go to the local Big

Brother,(Boss) if it is local taxes,or the state (Boss),or the federal Boss,but in any

case,you are a tenant,not an owner.

We are all slaves to money,unless you live in a cave and survive by your own wits and

skill.

There are a few around,but not many.

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#40
In reply to #39

Re: Electric School Bus; Seems Like a Natural

09/28/2021 2:18 PM

Hey Hey, Wooh! Are you telling me this cave is not mine?

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Hobbies - DIY Welding - Wannabeabettawelda

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Annapolis, Maryland
Posts: 6904
Good Answers: 401
#41
In reply to #38

Re: Electric School Bus; Seems Like a Natural

09/28/2021 6:50 PM

It's not slavery, it's human infrastructure.

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