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Where did the Big Bang Happen?

09/26/2021 11:17 PM

Was it the center of the universe? I've always wondered about that...

Now it's clear that nobody knows anything....haha

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#1

Re: Where did the Big Bang Happen?

09/27/2021 12:35 AM

If the universe has no end, can it have a center?

And if you travel in a straight line for infinity you end up back where you started from. Like, Afgha . . . . oh, never mind.

There may have been more than one big bang. We just 'know' about the big bang closest to us.

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#2

Re: Where did the Big Bang Happen?

09/27/2021 7:43 AM

The big bang wasn't an explosion that occurred at a particular place. It was an expansion of space itself, so the answer is everywhere.

"The Big Bang is not an explosion of matter moving outward to fill an empty universe. Instead, space itself expands with time everywhere and increases the physical distances between comoving points. In other words, the Big Bang is not an explosion in space, but rather an expansion of space.[4] Because the FLRW metric assumes a uniform distribution of mass and energy, it applies to our universe only on large scales—local concentrations of matter such as our galaxy do not necessarily expand with the same speed as the whole Universe.[17] "

Big Bang - Wikipedia

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#3

Re: Where did the Big Bang Happen?

09/27/2021 8:16 AM

Impossible to listen to because she starts out with a flawed statement -

"You probably also know that the universe doesn't have a center."

No, we don't know that.

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#4

Re: Where did the Big Bang Happen?

09/27/2021 10:10 AM

"Now it's clear that nobody knows anything....haha"

Like in zero people have zero knowledge?

So that the knowledge per person is indefinite,

which could include zero and infinite

Sabine Hossenfelder seems to fall somewhere in-between,

she's a good exposer of the unseen...

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#5

Re: Where did the Big Bang Happen?

09/27/2021 12:43 PM

The big bang,for all practical purposes did not exist before mankind created it with math.

The universe simply WAS.

It is a question that probably will not be solved absolutely,although theories may change over time.

All theories are a story,that begins with: "It behaves as if..."

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#6

Re: Where did the Big Bang Happen?

09/27/2021 11:03 PM

Any New Yorker can tell you that the universe started in New York. And that you'll fall off the edge if you cross the Hudson.

;-)

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#7

Re: Where did the Big Bang Happen?

09/28/2021 4:52 AM

'Nothing comes from nothing, nothing ever could . . . ' Richard Rogers

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#21
In reply to #7

Re: Where did the Big Bang Happen?

09/28/2021 6:56 PM

I thought it was Billy Preston. Great piano work.

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#8

Re: Where did the Big Bang Happen?

09/28/2021 4:55 AM

It happened in Las Palma, just 10 days ago, and it is still expanding.

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#9

Re: Where did the Big Bang Happen?

09/28/2021 5:38 AM

In the begging there was no universe. It possibly emerged from an infinite surge of energy in an infinitely small volume. Energy and mass are the same thing. The infinitely small universe rapidly expanded so every point in the expanding universe was its center. No magic, no great creator, just physics, though not simple physics. Do we have the whole story. Of course not. No one does. Maybe we never will. On the other hand an infinite number of monkeys typing on an infinite number of typewriters will eventually produce a paper with the whole story, just not in our lifetime.

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#15
In reply to #9

Re: Where did the Big Bang Happen?

09/28/2021 9:55 AM

Isn't 'energy' part of our universe?

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#16
In reply to #15

Re: Where did the Big Bang Happen?

09/28/2021 10:40 AM

I think matter is simply a concentrated lump of energy,as Einstein said with E=MC2.

I think some of the lumps were there from the beginning,like dark matter,and it's diluted form,dark energy.

Perhaps dark matter and dark energy is the only thing that could survive the BB intact.

It does warp spacetime,which was only recently (on a deep time scale) discovered,so perhaps it has other properties that we are unaware of.

Perhaps dark matter is percolating dark energy into the universe,like a seltzer in water.

Perhaps percolating dark matter and energy caused the BB by blowing a bubble and creating a bubble we call space time?

So many unknowns,so little time.

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#23
In reply to #15

Re: Where did the Big Bang Happen?

09/28/2021 7:17 PM

Yes, it is. Lots of energy can make a small amount of matter while a small amount of matter can make lots of energy, hence atomic bombs and power stations. Energy and matter can take many forms but the sum of energy and matter equivalent should be a universal constant. I do not think this is off topic but if anyone does I do apologise.

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#10

Re: Where did the Big Bang Happen?

09/28/2021 7:20 AM

A: everywhere.

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#11

Re: Where did the Big Bang Happen?

09/28/2021 8:22 AM

The universe appears to be uniform in all directions because the speed of light is the universal speed limit.

We can only see as far as light has traveled in our visible universe,and as a consequence,everything looks equidistant from us,or from every other point of view.

Like being in a huge bubble that is moving,you can only see as far as the walls.

C is the boundary to our universe.

There may be universes where C is the minimum speed limit.

We are hemmed in by the speed of light.

Ask a fish"How is the water?"The fish will say "What water?"

There may be much irregularity beyond our ability to see it,and it always will be,unless we can travel faster than C--much faster.

These irregularities may have an effect on our visible universe,and actually define some or all of our measurements.

There may be energy,non electromagnetic in nature,that moves faster than C but we would not be able to detect it.Likewise with matter.

Consider entanglement for instance.

Einstein never said nothing could travel faster than light,he said that communication could never exceed C.

I personally think "infinity" is a cop out.

Similar to the ancients"Beyond here there be dragons".

"Infinity "gives rest to further study and is accepted as a fact,and gives scientists the ability to sleep well at night.

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#14
In reply to #11

Re: Where did the Big Bang Happen?

09/28/2021 9:50 AM

The universe appears to be uniform in all directions because the speed of light is the universal speed limit.

If this is true then how come its so dark in space? I think dark travels faster than light. (And there is certainly more dark than light).

The only reason for infinity is that our brains cannot conceive that distance or understand the logic of infinity. I do believe that infinity, as all things in the universe has an end point. It just happens to be further away than we could travel in any lifetime of a mere human. And until we can sustain life in a capsule for a very long journey or ensure a communication device to travel the expanse with minimum delay in relaying information to allow us to know what is out there, then we will be left with infinity, which no one actually knows how far away it actually is. But it sounds good as an expression. Its what we know now and it fits. Infinity and beyond.

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#17
In reply to #14

Re: Where did the Big Bang Happen?

09/28/2021 10:50 AM

I see a little humor is in order here.

I discussed dark in a previous post long ago.

Light bulbs are simply dark suckers.

When a bulb or tube burns out,it will be dark at the ends, when it is full of dark.

When you turn on a light,it will suck all of the dark out of the area.

The dark has to leave before the light can appear,so it must be faster than light.

The retina of your eye has to have time to dispose of all of the dark,so you blink.

It takes about 1/20 of a second to dispose of all the dark.

This is called Retinal memory.

The build up of dark in the body causes aging.

If you trace the wire from a light bulb all the way back to the generating plant,you will see the dark coming out of the smokestacks.

When as star has all of the dark it can hold,it collapses into a black hole.

K.I.S.S.!

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#18
In reply to #17

Re: Where did the Big Bang Happen?

09/28/2021 10:56 AM

As I have always said the candle is a dark sucker. That little black bit on the wick is where dark is compressed and stored. Light more candles and we have less dark, so fill space with candles and you will see infinity just over the horizon.

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#25
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Re: Where did the Big Bang Happen?

09/29/2021 1:57 AM

"The universe appears to be uniform in all directions because the speed of light is the universal speed limit.

We can only see as far as light has traveled in our visible universe, and as a consequence, everything looks equidistant from us, or from every other point of view."

Not quite. You are apparently referring to the Cosmic Microwave Background radiation, which we observe as the inside surface of a sphere, but its uniformity in temperature comes from something that happened before the present day expansion started. We are not sure what that was, because it cannot be observed, but a rapid inflation over a short period of time is still the best buy in cosmology.

To the right is a log-log-scale expansion graph, showing the early epochs, before and after inflation quite dramatically. The horizontal scale is log(t/tPlanck) and the vertical is log(r/rPlanck), where ±r is the increasing light-travel-distance for two bundles of CMB photon, coming from opposite sides of the CMB sphere to our telescopes in the center.

Those photons presently have the same black-body temperature of some 2.7K, to within 1 part in 105. If we (naively) linearly extrapolate the distance between the photon bundles shown back to time t=tPlanck (10-43 seconds), using Einstein's theory of general relativity, we find that the locations from where they came, were still quite far apart and could hence not have interacted with each other to equalize the temperature to the degree that we observe.

This is where the theory of inflation comes in. It allows all the source areas of the CMB radiation to be on top of each other for enough time to allow equalization of the temperatures. Then inflation happened around t=10-33s (10 units on the log scale after the origin at 10-43s) and rapidly (exponentially) expanded distances everywhere by at least 35 log-units in just 2 log-units of time. This left us the (almost) uniform CMB that we observe today.

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#26
In reply to #25

Re: Where did the Big Bang Happen?

09/29/2021 6:11 AM

IMHO:

Every explosion occurs in a sequence of events.

The first edge of the explosion is met with resistance from the surroundings (whatever it is) and the next portion following has less resistance following the first edge,like bubbles in water for example.

The second bubble will travel faster and catch up with and merge with the first bubble.

This is easily observed.

The outer edge of the explosion moves slower than the inner portions of the explosion.

This would tend to equalize the energy distribution,would it not?

If we presume the explosion is uniform, (as it should be,since it is emanating from an infinitely dense singularity),and is expanding into nothing,a perfect nothing,a perfect vacuum,devoid of energy and matter, the explosion would be perfectly spherical,and since nature loves uniformity,imbalances would level out over time.

Opposites would attract,etc,etc,.

Space and Time started with the beginning of this explosion because,space,time and motion are partial factors of the whole.

Neither can be defined without the other two.

Insofar as what we actually observe,(not theorize) all objects would seem to be at the center of the observable universe.

Where have I erred in my simplistic views?

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#27
In reply to #26

Re: Where did the Big Bang Happen?

09/29/2021 6:45 AM

One cannot locate a centre of an undefined infinite space. An infinite space will have infinite centres. All objects are only at our centre, earth, that we can observe. Therefore in theory and practice, the centre of the universe is earth, as we can only observe that which we can see from our point in space.

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#28
In reply to #27

Re: Where did the Big Bang Happen?

09/29/2021 6:54 AM

That is what I just said in #11.

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#30
In reply to #28

Re: Where did the Big Bang Happen?

09/29/2021 7:24 AM

Well, on checking back, so you did.

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#37
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Re: Where did the Big Bang Happen?

09/30/2021 7:31 AM

As I understand it, the universe is thought to be finite but unbounded, 3 dimensions embedded in a 4-dimensional space. An analogy is the (2-dimensional) surface of an expanding sphere. Every point on the surface moves away from every other, and there is no centre. The surface is finite but unbounded, and if you keep going in one direction you come back to your starting point.

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#38
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Re: Where did the Big Bang Happen?

09/30/2021 8:22 AM

A 4-d hyperspherical space is not completely ruled out, but the observable universe is extremely close to spatially flat on large scales, so observations and theoretical understanding presently favors an overall flat space. This means that if we ignore small scale unevenness (like galaxies), two initially parallel light beams will never cross or come back from the opposite directions.

Spacetime though, is not flat like in Special Relativity, because two initially parallel light beams in whatever direction will diverge, due to the forever accelerating expansion of space, again ignoring small scale inconveniences.

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#41
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Re: Where did the Big Bang Happen?

09/30/2021 8:36 AM

Our concept of "Large" and "Flat" is also relative.

"It is not what we see that is important,it is how we look at it."-Unknown

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#42
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Re: Where did the Big Bang Happen?

09/30/2021 8:36 AM

But am I right thinking it still explains why there is no unique centre to the expansion? And if it does turn out to be spatially flat it's still finite but unbounded? Anyway, I would think physical, as opposed to mathematical, infinity cannot exist.

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#43
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Re: Where did the Big Bang Happen?

09/30/2021 8:40 AM

If spacetime is expanding,then so is time;Clocks will run slower and slower,eventually almost stopping(by our present standards of reference).

Will C also appear(from our perspective) to slow down proportionally?

If not,why not?

And if it does indeed slow down,has this been considered in the calculations of expansion?

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#44
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Re: Where did the Big Bang Happen?

09/30/2021 9:14 AM

Hmm... No, only space is expanding cosmologically. Cosmologists think cosmic time remains ticking on undisturbed, on average. There are obviously small scale unevenness in time due to local gravitational wells.

If anything, when we look far, far back, we see processes happening slower, but that we can explain at the hand of the cosmological redshift. The photons got stretched by the expansion as they came to us, so everything only seems to have been ticking slower. We correct for that when we interpret events that happened in the early universe.

Distant beings would also see our processes to appear slower for the same reason. So things average out and everybody seems to be happy. And since we can't yet see into the future, we should not worry about it too much.

Then on the other hand, for young children time passes very slowly - think about how long it must be for them from one birthday present to the next. For us oldies, it comes all too soon...

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#45
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Re: Where did the Big Bang Happen?

09/30/2021 9:31 AM

I thought time and space were inseparable.

You cannot define one without the other.

So where did my learning process err?

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#46
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Re: Where did the Big Bang Happen?

10/01/2021 2:30 AM

"I thought time and space were inseparable.

You cannot define one without the other.

So where did my learning process err?"

You are in good company, and with that I don't mean me...

We all suffer under the "Hubble curse" of expanding space. Only when Einstein had to accept the observable fact that space is expanding, i.e. when he understood the cosmological implications of his own General Relativity, he had to yield.

The interesting point is that Einstein originally did not like Minkowski's idea of the space-time continuum through the inertial frame. Probably because he understood the deeper mathematics well enough to have a different mental image of space-time than Minkowski's.

And no sooner had he embraced the inertial frame into his gravitational theory (well, a decade or so after that), using a cosmological constant to establish a static space, when Hubble came around and plugged that "block universe" from under his feet. Apparently, he was happy to drop the cosmological constant and accepted that space was expanding.

Sadly, he did not live to see how Adam Riess et al. forced the cosmological constant, through observations, back into his gravitational equations. He would have had to learn to accept an accelerating expanding universe.

After all this blah-blah of mine, and it took me a long time to come to terms with it, the Minkowski inertial frame is still safe and sound, as long as it remains small and contains negligible matter. We simply call it a local inertial frame. But the large scale inertial frame, including a star/galaxy or two, is gone forever. There space and time can go their own contorted ways.

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#47
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Re: Where did the Big Bang Happen?

10/02/2021 10:13 AM

All we can really say about the acceleration of space is that space is expanding.The energy required to do this could be internal or external.

The idea of expanding into nothing,and creating space and time as it goes is IMHO, a cop out.

There maybe external medium that we cannot detect because of our physical constraints within our bubble.It is comfortable to think that there is nothing out there,but in reality,there might just be.

A bubble can expand with an external decrease in pressure,as well as an increase of internal pressure.

The difference between inflating a balloon,and a rising bubble in a liquid.

Perhaps our tiny little dust mote of a universe may be just a rising bubble in an ocean,and we do not know if that ocean is uniform.

It may be pulling on certain parts more than others (Dark Matter)?

These blemishes in space-time may have been present before the BB,and affected the formation of galaxies,etc..

Gravity may be weak because it is leaking into our universe from elsewhere,as some scientists think.

Every discovery about our universe reminds us that we are not the center of everything,or anything.

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#31
In reply to #26

Re: Where did the Big Bang Happen?

09/29/2021 12:29 PM

"Where have I erred in my simplistic views?"

You have described a classical explosion happening in space, where the big bang was a patch of 3-d space that "exploded" everywhere simultaneously. In the BB model, the further away you look, the faster things move away from us, not slower like in your "model".

In my diagram, the patch was not of zero size, but one Planck length in radius. Alan Guth, the man that has put the "Bang in the Big Bang", described it like this:

WAS COSMIC INFLATION THE 'BANG' OF THE BIG BANG?
"There are many versions of inflationary theories but generically they assume that some small patch of the early Universe somehow came to be in a false vacuum state Various possibilities have been discussed, including supercooling during a phase transition in the early Universe, or a purely random fluctuation of the fields. A chance fluctuation seems reasonable even if the probability is low, since the inflating region will enlarge by many orders of magnitude, while the non-inflating regions will remain microscopic. Inflation is a wildfire that will inevitably take over the forest, as long as there is some chance that it will start.
Once a patch of the early Universe is in the false vacuum state, the repulsive gravitational effect drives the patch into an inflationary period of exponential expansion. To produce a universe with the special features of the Big Bang discussed above, the expansion factor must be at least about 1025. There is no upper limit to the amount of expansion. Eventually the false vacuum decays, and the energy that had been locked in it is released. This energy produces a hot, uniform, soup of particles, which is exactly the assumed starting point of the traditional Big Bang theory. At this point the inflationary theory joins onto the older theory, maintaining all the successes for which the Big Bang theory is believed."

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#32
In reply to #31

Re: Where did the Big Bang Happen?

09/29/2021 1:12 PM

The further away we look,the further back in time we see,implying that the explosion was faster in the beginning,does it not?

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#35
In reply to #32

Re: Where did the Big Bang Happen?

09/30/2021 12:29 AM

Yes HiTekRedNek, the expansion rate was much larger at the beginning, tapering off at first and then starting to increase again lately. Below is a plot of the scale factor over time. Overall it is not too far from a straight line, but the rate of expansion is proportional to the slope of the curve at any time.

The scale factor relates to the observed redshift of the source by a =1/(z+1)

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#36
In reply to #35

Re: Where did the Big Bang Happen?

09/30/2021 6:46 AM

I know we are fenced in by the speed of light,and we only see within that limit.

If the rate of expansion is at a constant rate then the universe will indeed die a heat death.

But it may not be constant.We may be looking at only a portion of the expansion.

We know there is much beyond our visible universe,but we don't know how much.

A small segment of an infinite circle will appear to us to be a straight line.

Our imagination is not limited by C,and we can cross many dimensions in space and time instantly.

If we can imagine it,it is probably possible.

Thanks for your feedback Jorrie.

You have shed some light onto the dark islands of my ignorance.

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#29
In reply to #25

Re: Where did the Big Bang Happen?

09/29/2021 7:13 AM

Two aspirin, please.

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#40
In reply to #29

Re: Where did the Big Bang Happen?

09/30/2021 8:31 AM

And don't slam the lid on the aspirin box!

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#12

Re: Where did the Big Bang Happen?

09/28/2021 8:25 AM

Although not confirmed yet, the big bang happened in Wuhan..

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#22
In reply to #12

Re: Where did the Big Bang Happen?

09/28/2021 7:05 PM

I thought it was in the back seat of Swalwell's car.

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#13

Re: Where did the Big Bang Happen?

09/28/2021 8:47 AM

If the universe consists of time, space and matter (a popular belief of the scientific community), then prior to the universe there was no time, space or matter.

Can there actually be a 'where'?

If the universe (time space and matter) is actually infinite, we could never actually 'be' could we? Wouldn't there be an infinite amount of time prior to 'now'?

Is the second law of thermodynamics 'junk science'?

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#19

Re: Where did the Big Bang Happen?

09/28/2021 12:25 PM

I have wondered if perhaps some "distant" star we see could be long-ago light from our sun, curved around by gravity, to come back to us.

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#24
In reply to #19

Re: Where did the Big Bang Happen?

09/29/2021 1:07 AM

"I have wondered if perhaps some "distant" star we see could be long-ago light from our sun, curved around by gravity, to come back to us."

Only possible around a black hole and then only a tiny bit of the light-energy can be bent to form this very, very special trajectory. The science of such a mirror-like deflection is interesting but extremely unlikely (and also very difficult to calculate).

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#20

Re: Where did the Big Bang Happen?

09/28/2021 12:59 PM

We all know the centre of the universe is the exciting big shopping mall down the road. How can anyone not know this?

It allows for infinite shopping and infinite credit. Ask any woman. The big bang is when the bank manager calls to tell you you are totally broke and have nowhere to live now.

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#33

Re: Where did the Big Bang Happen?

09/29/2021 4:56 PM

Do you want the answer in GPS coordinates?

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#39
In reply to #33

Re: Where did the Big Bang Happen?

09/30/2021 8:27 AM

I would prefer it in Infinite SpaceTime Coordinates.

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#34

Re: Where did the Big Bang Happen?

09/29/2021 11:10 PM

Inside Pandora's box.

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