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Cavitation bubble and electrolysis combined

05/07/2022 10:01 AM

I have read where cavitation of bubbles results in extremely high temperatures and pressures when the bubble collapses.I wonder if anyone has tried cavitation while a voltage is applied to the water? Would it result in more energy released?What would happen when the hydrogen is compressed at that pressure and temperature?

Just curious.

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#1

Re: Cavitation bubble and electrolysis combined

05/07/2022 12:26 PM

Your inquiry seems too ambiguous to answer. What energy is getting released, and from what step in this complex, agitated process?

I also cannot imagine a system where one can apply electrolysis to water while simultaneously inducing cavitation.

I also do not see how after applying enough electrical energy to produce electrolysis and mechanical energy to produce cavitation one could hope for more energy to be produced than some other unspecified process. You certainly will not get more energy out than what was put in by those two processes. With the proffered attributes of brief moments of high pressure and temperature, one will get complete recombination of the hydrogen and oxygen produced by the electrolysis process that resides in the cavitation bubble.

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#5
In reply to #1

Re: Cavitation bubble and electrolysis combined

05/07/2022 1:07 PM

You have my deepest sympathies for your loss of imagination.

Some people lose that after the age of 5 or 6 years of age,but I am still a child in my mind in that regard.

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#6
In reply to #5

Re: Cavitation bubble and electrolysis combined

05/07/2022 2:19 PM

This is a typical example of how CR4 has degraded. I look for clarification in your question but instead, I get an insult about my imagination.

GO FISH.

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#15
In reply to #6

Re: Cavitation bubble and electrolysis combined

05/08/2022 7:41 AM

It was not as insult,merely a reply to your statement that you could "not imagine"......loss of imagination is truly a loss.I was expressing my genuine sympathy.

I cannot be offended by anyone that I do not know personally and respect,so I should not be able to offend a stranger,and vice versa.

My apologies if it seemed like a ad hominem attack.My bad.

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#11
In reply to #5

Re: Cavitation bubble and electrolysis combined

05/08/2022 12:27 AM

RedFred isn't exhibiting a loss of imagination, but rather a well-educated understanding of basic Physics.

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#12
In reply to #11

Re: Cavitation bubble and electrolysis combined

05/08/2022 1:33 AM

Really?

..."I also cannot imagine a system where one can apply electrolysis to water while simultaneously inducing cavitation."...

..."Ultrasonically-assisted water electrolysis enhances hydrogen yield."...

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1350417718309702

I think the facts speak for themselves...

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#14
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Re: Cavitation bubble and electrolysis combined

05/08/2022 7:33 AM

Thanks!! That is the info I was looking for.I am speculating here,but if the bubble formations could be synchronized with the ultrasonic frequency,combined with ignition source,we could produce and engine that runs on water!

For instance super fine iron powder in the water,heated by an external magnetic pulse to ignition temperature as a source of ignition.

No idea if this is possible,just wondering.

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#16
In reply to #11

Re: Cavitation bubble and electrolysis combined

05/08/2022 7:45 AM

What basic laws of physics does this idea violate?

Please elaborate.

I stated I was not seeking an over-unity result,merely wondering about the results of combining cavitation with electrolysis.

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#18
In reply to #16

Re: Cavitation bubble and electrolysis combined

05/08/2022 9:42 AM

In your original post, you said: "Would it result in more energy released?"

That gave me the impression that you were considering this as a source of energy, which it is not.

The original post does NOT state that you didn't expect over-unity.

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#21
In reply to #18

Re: Cavitation bubble and electrolysis combined

05/08/2022 11:38 AM

You are right,I simply assumed that no one would think that I was expecting over unity;I meant more energy than could be derived from the normal implosion of the bubbles.

I should have been more explicit about my expectations,so the fault is mine for being so ambiguous.Apologies all around for my omission.

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#22
In reply to #21

Re: Cavitation bubble and electrolysis combined

05/08/2022 11:46 AM

Thanks. Apology accepted.

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#30
In reply to #21

Re: Cavitation bubble and electrolysis combined

05/10/2022 8:28 AM

Do you call that an apology? A high school student knows that one should apologize to whomever you offended. Then again that high school student understands more basic Physics and English than you have demonstrated.

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#31
In reply to #30

Re: Cavitation bubble and electrolysis combined

05/10/2022 8:30 AM

Rude.

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#32
In reply to #30

Re: Cavitation bubble and electrolysis combined

05/10/2022 4:57 PM

"Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain"

"I will never argue with you,you will drag me down to your level and beat me with experience."

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#33
In reply to #30

Re: Cavitation bubble and electrolysis combined

05/10/2022 6:58 PM

He did say: "Apologies all around for my omission."

I don't know how he could better direct the apology to multiple possible posters who might (or might not)have been offended.

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#36
In reply to #18

Re: Cavitation bubble and electrolysis combined

05/11/2022 8:42 AM

I thought I cleared that up with my post#3,as soon as I realized the ambiguity of my OP.

I shall proof read my posts to be Spock-like precise in the future;However,he is only half Vulcan,and the human part can still make mistakes sometimes,like humans frequently do.

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#2

Re: Cavitation bubble and electrolysis combined

05/07/2022 12:28 PM

Are you being baffled by an HOH claim?

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#3
In reply to #2

Re: Cavitation bubble and electrolysis combined

05/07/2022 12:59 PM

Ultrasonic vibration of water,or other liquids can produce cavitation,and when the bubbles collapse,they produce an incredible temperature,nearly as hot as the surface of the sun.

I have discussed cavitation previously here in the past.

To apply current to a liquid while producing cavitation seems like a simple process,and I wonder if anyone has done research on this.

I am not thinking of a over-unity device or cold fusion,just wondering if it has been tried,and the results.

"Inquiring minds want to know."

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#4
In reply to #2

Re: Cavitation bubble and electrolysis combined

05/07/2022 1:04 PM

HOH,H20;aka Water.No.

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#7

Re: Cavitation bubble and electrolysis combined

05/07/2022 3:29 PM

Not sure what would happen if you attached your electrodes to the propeller and drove it at a speed that produced cavitation, I have to agree that it seems to me that more energy would be required in this process, and how would you separate the H and O, it would seem to be all mixed up...Now if you subject the water to a near vacuum and ran your electrolysis, that seems like it might help, but still not improve the energy in energy out equation...sound vibration might boost the process of hydrogen oxygen molecular separation, but not sure if that has been proven yet....but it does seem the most likely to me....

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#8
In reply to #7

Re: Cavitation bubble and electrolysis combined

05/07/2022 6:42 PM

"Hydrogen can be produced via five main categories of technologies,2 namely, thermochemical, electrochemical, photobiological, photoelectrochemical, and the new innovative approach of sono-hydro-gen. The table presents a brief illustration and a comparison between the five main categories of hydrogen production in terms of fundamental theory and remarks. The thermochemical technology is associated with the steam gas reforming which is not environmentally friendly method, whereas the electrochemical technology related to water electrolysis requires high electrical power (Table 1).

Sono-hydro-genH2O +

hsound ➔ OH* + H*

Environmentally friendly, sustainable, durable, and low-energy consumption. Production rate of 0.8 μM min−1 at acoustic intensity of (0.6 W cm−2)

7

OH* + H*➔ H2 + O

"It is an emerging technology and a combination of the power of ultrasound and the hydrogen production process when water is the liquid medium. When the ultrasound waves with high frequency pass through liquid water, it will lead to severe vibrations of water that result in generating acoustic cavitation bubbles. Intense ultrasonic waves within the frequency range 20 to 1100 kHz traveling through liquids triggered small acoustic cavities that grow, oscillate, enlarge, and implode in a sequence, creating tremendous amount of heat. When the bubbles oscillate, they create high-velocity jets and shear forces on the bulk water surrounding. The collapse makes a shock wave with very high amplitude that goes up to 10 000 atmospheres; the intensity of the shock wave mostly depends on different aspects including the ultrasound frequency, the acoustic power, and the bulk temperature. After the collapse, enormous temperature and pressures are generated due to the absorption of sound waves, the temperature goes up to 5000 K, and the pressure goes up to 2000 atmospheres within the bubbles. These extreme conditions provide an unusual chemical environment. When the collapse takes place, each bubble acts as a microreactor within which typical flame reaction occurs. These microbubbles are obviously acting as microcombustors at which a combustion chemistry or reaction takes place. Then, the collapse by the impact of the ultrasound waves leads to the formation of hydrogen molecules as illustrated in Figure 2."

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/er.4339

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0360319915002426?via%3Dihub

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#9
In reply to #7

Re: Cavitation bubble and electrolysis combined

05/07/2022 7:09 PM

You don't need a prop to cause cavitation,Piezo crystals generate them easily,as in ultrasonic cleaners,etc.I was thinking of a Piezo source of cavitation,and applying voltage to it.

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#10
In reply to #9

Re: Cavitation bubble and electrolysis combined

05/07/2022 7:32 PM

Oxygen and hydrogen make an explosive mixture, particularly efficient at 1 part oxy to 3 part hyd....so precautions should be taken...lest you blow your face off

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#13
In reply to #10

Re: Cavitation bubble and electrolysis combined

05/08/2022 7:24 AM

Thanks for the link and the video.Interesting!

The Germans used pulse-combustion in their V2 rockets,nicknamed the buzz bombers because of the sound they made. They had a very simple construction-injecting fuel into a tube,and using some of the pressure to open a flapper valve to admit more air.When the valve was closed by outside air flow,more fuel was injected and ignited,and the process repeated.

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#17
In reply to #13

Re: Cavitation bubble and electrolysis combined

05/08/2022 7:49 AM

Pulse combustion furnaces were produced by a company(Lennox?) and were very efficient,using the same principle of pulse combustion,and had a cool exhaust,having extracted most of the thermal energy from the fuel.

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#19
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Re: Cavitation bubble and electrolysis combined

05/08/2022 10:05 AM
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#23
In reply to #19

Re: Cavitation bubble and electrolysis combined

05/08/2022 11:54 AM

Here is a talk Seth Putterman did at UCLA where he demonstrates sonoluminescence

and some other interesting things.

I enjoyed it immensely,perhaps you will also.

https://uctv.tv/search-details.aspx?showID=20888&subject=pet

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#29
In reply to #10

Re: Cavitation bubble and electrolysis combined

05/10/2022 6:36 AM

Detonation is very impressive, though detonation is not cavitation.

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#20

Re: Cavitation bubble and electrolysis combined

05/08/2022 10:09 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSIPolpvjBY

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#24

Re: Cavitation bubble and electrolysis combined

05/08/2022 8:05 PM
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#25
In reply to #24

Re: Cavitation bubble and electrolysis combined

05/09/2022 4:51 AM

I remember from a over 20 years a go where a couple of high school students demonstrated hydrogen production from rust exposed to sunlight.

This was a science project.

I mentioned it on this forum.

I received a personal email asking for details from someone,but I cannot remember the name.

Someone finally picked up on this idea and has exploited it to the max.

Too bad these kids did not patent it.

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#37
In reply to #24

Re: Cavitation bubble and electrolysis combined

05/11/2022 8:59 AM

How about the possibility of using all 3 methods of hydrogen generation:electrolysis,ultrasonic,and iron rust+light.

Is it possible that could produce even more hydrogen?

Has this been tried yet?

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#38
In reply to #37

Re: Cavitation bubble and electrolysis combined

05/11/2022 10:08 AM

Hydrogen can be produced by a range of processes at any rate. All of the processes are endothermic and none of it is magic.

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#39
In reply to #38

Re: Cavitation bubble and electrolysis combined

05/11/2022 1:28 PM

I am not talking about"magic" or over-unity.

I am merely asking about combining 3 simple methods to try to achieve a greater yield of Hydrogen from water.

Ultrasonic+electrolysis+ sunlight/iron rust.

Perhaps 2 thin layers of a glass container,exposed to direct sunlight,with all three methods contributing to the hydrogen separation.

Perhaps the sunlight/iron could supplement the other two methods.

The iron/sunlight might be more efficient that direct hydrolysis derived from solar electricity...but don't know... just wondering if it has been tried.?

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#40
In reply to #39

Re: Cavitation bubble and electrolysis combined

05/13/2022 3:20 AM

If the only objective is to produce hydrogen, then it is not necessary, and in some cases not practicable, to combine a number of processes together. Any single process can be scaled-up to produce the required flowrate.

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#41
In reply to #40

Re: Cavitation bubble and electrolysis combined

05/13/2022 6:59 AM

The objective is efficiency;Would it be more efficient to combine all 3 methods to increase efficiency of the process overall?

There may be a synergistic interaction that occurs that no none has anticipated.

"Quod erat demonstrandum"

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#42
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Re: Cavitation bubble and electrolysis combined

05/13/2022 9:03 AM

<...Quod erat demonstrandum...> Was it? So where is the evidence (rhetorical question - NNTR)?

If there is no record of anything being assessed and published in this area, it remains open to the curious to investigate further. That is what experimentation is all about.

<unsubscribes>

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#26

Re: Cavitation bubble and electrolysis combined

05/09/2022 4:43 PM

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#27
In reply to #26

Re: Cavitation bubble and electrolysis combined

05/09/2022 4:58 PM

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#28

Re: Cavitation bubble and electrolysis combined

05/10/2022 6:30 AM

<...Would it result in more energy released?...>

The purpose of electrolysis of water is to generate hydrogen and oxygen, not to <...release ...energy...>; energy is consumed, breaking the hydrogen-oxygen bonds in water molecules. Agitation during electrolysis by introducing cavitation might increase hydrogen and oxygen yield, along with an increase in the power consumed. However, the presence of bubbles in water may well reduce the conductance of the water; an experiment would determine this one way or the other.

<...What would happen when the hydrogen is compressed at that pressure and temperature?...>

One merely ends up with <...hydrogen...compressed at that pressure and temperature...>, because hydrogen's critical point is 33.24K and 12.8atm; liquefaction above that temperature is impossible.

Critical Points for some Substances (engineeringtoolbox.com)

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#34
In reply to #28

Re: Cavitation bubble and electrolysis combined

05/11/2022 12:25 AM

You can increase the conductivity of the water with an additive, sodium hydroxide or common lye, is used in some processes....

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#35
In reply to #34

Re: Cavitation bubble and electrolysis combined

05/11/2022 3:09 AM

For sure, though it isn't mentioned in the original post.

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