Previous in Forum: power from water tower   Next in Forum: The Future of Desalination
Close
Close
Close
16 comments
Rate Comments: Nested
Guru
Hobbies - RC Aircraft - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 901
Good Answers: 9

Cable Strength?

05/23/2022 11:44 AM

OK I have a 40 foot tall tower. the bottom has a hinge plate so the tower can be tilted over and lay down flat. The total tower weight is 120 pounds. If I attach a cable at the 20 foot height, and go to a pulley at the same height, and then down to a winch. How strong does this cable need to be to be able to safely lower this tower over? The red line is this cable.

Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
3
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: About 4000 miles from the center of the earth (+/-100 mi)
Posts: 9910
Good Answers: 1141
#1

Re: Cable Strength?

05/23/2022 12:05 PM

The maximum strength is required when the tower is just above the ground, the cable makes a 45 degree angle, and being attached at the center of gravity, supports the entire weight. The cable tension would be 120 x sqrt(2) = 282.8... lb.

Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 3)
2
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Been there, done that. Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 15600
Good Answers: 981
#2
In reply to #1

Re: Cable Strength?

05/23/2022 1:46 PM

I agree this would be true if the only forces on the tower were from gravity acting on the tower mass and the cable attachment was precisely at the center of mass for the tower. Wind loading, cable mass, ancillary hardware, acquired debris (birds and their nests), and other minutiae will add a little. A reasonable added safety margin should be considered for the cable selection. IMHO a 300 lb working load limit would not be a sufficient safety margin.

__________________
"Don't disturb my circles." translation of Archimedes last words
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: by the beach in Florida
Posts: 33392
Good Answers: 1817
#3
In reply to #2

Re: Cable Strength?

05/23/2022 2:00 PM

I agree, about a half ton winch and cable would be required...

__________________
All living things seek to control their own destiny....this is the purpose of life
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: by the beach in Florida
Posts: 33392
Good Answers: 1817
#5
In reply to #3

Re: Cable Strength?

05/23/2022 2:49 PM

__________________
All living things seek to control their own destiny....this is the purpose of life
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru
Canada - Member - New Member

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Canada but south of 49
Posts: 895
Good Answers: 20
#13
In reply to #2

Re: Cable Strength?

05/24/2022 3:45 PM

You have correctly identified additional external forces that need to be considered. In order to calculate what is required you need to consult an "expert". That "expert" can calculate what you need to do, including the connections required, what kind of deadman, angles, etc. you will need to support the winch, etc.. It is really not that simple. If it was me, I would look at the application and install a real overkill of a solution (because I am not an "expert", although I consider myself a "practical" professional engineer, and would make it "look" good). For the additional initial cost it is always "better safe that sorry".

__________________
Never stop learning
Register to Reply
Guru
Technical Fields - Technical Writing - New Member Engineering Fields - Piping Design Engineering - New Member

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Richland, WA, USA
Posts: 21017
Good Answers: 795
#6
In reply to #1

Re: Cable Strength?

05/23/2022 9:08 PM

I'm coming up with 120 x √2 ≈ 169.7 lb.

__________________
In vino veritas; in cervisia carmen; in aqua E. coli.
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: by the beach in Florida
Posts: 33392
Good Answers: 1817
#7
In reply to #6

Re: Cable Strength?

05/23/2022 10:22 PM

I get the angles at 45°, 45°, and 90° at the base, that would be force times 1.41 or 169.2 lbs...but with a 5 to 1 safety margin, that would be 846 lbs...

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/rope-angle-tension-increase-d_1507.html

__________________
All living things seek to control their own destiny....this is the purpose of life
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: About 4000 miles from the center of the earth (+/-100 mi)
Posts: 9910
Good Answers: 1141
#15
In reply to #6

Re: Cable Strength?

05/25/2022 8:33 PM

Thanks, you're right. Somehow, 120 changed to 200 in the brain fog...

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 44.56024"N 15.307971E
Posts: 8277
Good Answers: 270
#4

Re: Cable Strength?

05/23/2022 2:12 PM

Cable is cheap,towers are not.Don't design for the minimum on this project.

1000 lb cable is still very cheap,and gives plenty of safety margin.

Buy a high-ratio cable winch,and you can probably operate it with a hand drill.

Do not pinch pennies on the foundation and anchorage for the tower.

Wind and leverage of the tower(20 to 1) can have an amazing amount of torque at the bottom of the tower.

Good luck!

__________________
"A man never stands so tall as when he stoops to help a child." "Never argue with a stupid person.They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience" "To create an apple pie from scratch, first you must create a universe"
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - RC Aircraft - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 901
Good Answers: 9
#8

Re: Cable Strength?

05/23/2022 10:28 PM

Thanks everyone!

Register to Reply
Guru
United States - Member - Born, raised halfway 'round .....

Join Date: May 2010
Location: Metro.Manila, Philippines.
Posts: 1268
Good Answers: 27
#9
In reply to #8

Re: Cable Strength?

05/24/2022 3:07 AM

NSS-

Beside the cable strength, you also need to consider the total weight of the cable together with all the hardware that will be required in rigging your tower.

__________________
vsar
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: London NE, UK
Posts: 153
Good Answers: 10
#10

Re: Cable Strength?

05/24/2022 4:12 AM

. . . . and don't forget your pulley anchorage also needs to be robust.

Register to Reply
3
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: North West England
Posts: 1170
Good Answers: 153
#11

Re: Cable Strength?

05/24/2022 5:56 AM

A better way to approach this problem is to look at the load ratings of readily available wire ropes. A ¼" stainless steel wire rope has a maximum capacity of 6822lbs but you need to add two other factors. The design safety factor and the angle of pull. A ¼" rope has a safe working load (SWL) of 1836lbs @ a 3.5:1 safety factor or 1362lbs @ a 5:1 safety factor. Your angle of pull @45º de-rates these SWLs to 1298lbs and 962lbs respectively. So your 120lb load is well within the capacity of a ¼" rope with a 5:1 safety factor. Size your pulley and winch drum to 20x the rope diameter to avoid introducing a further de-rating factor related to minimum bending radii. You could go to a lower size but that would introduce additional problems. Most 40 ft towers are outside and subject to weathering and corrosion, I assume that your's is also outside. A ¼" rope will be more suitable to these conditions than a 3/16" rope and a 1/8" rope would not meet your loading criteria.

Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 3)
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1688
Good Answers: 145
#12
In reply to #11

Re: Cable Strength?

05/24/2022 7:25 AM

Good Answer!

Others have posted about cost of rope and cost of tower. What really matters here is who is hurt or killed by the falling, bouncing and flying sharp parts as the tower comes down. Unexpected failures often fail in unexpected ways. When the falling tower hits your parked car the momentum of the top of the tower causes the foundation you "cheaped" on to break loose and now you have shrapnel flying in all directions. As stated by jhhassociates and others, EVERY component in the system needs a good safety factor.

__________________
Few things limit our potential as much as knowing answers and setting aside questions.
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: May 2018
Location: Under the spreading Bunya Trees, South Burnett, Queensland, Australia
Posts: 806
Good Answers: 65
#14

Re: Cable Strength?

05/24/2022 7:15 PM

While you can go into the mathematics as others have done it seems pointless to me.

Being an amateur myself and having installed many of these tilt over designs for myself and others I believe in the KISS principle. Just go out and buy a boat hand winch, the cost of these is below $100 for a 3000Kg rating. Choose a two speed if you like for it will make it even quicker

Forget the mathematics unless you are set the example in a school paper and want marks. Mount the winch at a comfortable height. The pulley strength and attachment are more critical than looking for the minimum rope size.

Why use the attachment at such a height, typically a 100mmx100mm RHS beam around 3m high cemented beside the tower into the foundation using a 50mm pulley with a 400/500 Kg rating suffices to raise such a tower with a 6m beam for 6m coms.

__________________
Hare today, goon tomorrow!
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Land of Shining Waters
Posts: 916
Good Answers: 35
#16

Re: Cable Strength?

05/26/2022 9:39 AM

I designed and installed this decorative windmill in a local community garden a year and a half ago. The wood mast is scissor-hinged about five feet from the base. Put it up using a come-a-along with a 1/4" stainless wire rope. Last Saturday had a storm here in S. Ontario with windspeeds over 100 mph. Trees down everywhere. Power restored just a few hours ago. The windmill was unscathed. When building, drilled long length-wise holes at the top and drove in 4 threaded rods coated with construction adhesive. That detail probably saved it. The flapping wing mechanism uses salvaged parts from an eliptical exercise machine - very robust. Wings must have been flapping like a bumblebee during the storm. Thought this project would interest others here.

__________________
It is easier to let the cat out of the bag than to put the cat back in the bag.
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Register to Reply 16 comments

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

BruceFlorida (1); canadianslidewinder (1); DaveD (1); HiTekRedNek (1); jhhassociates (1); Kevin LaPaire (1); NSS (1); redfred (1); Rixter (2); SolarEagle (3); Stef (1); Tornado (1); vsar (1)

Previous in Forum: power from water tower   Next in Forum: The Future of Desalination

Advertisement