Previous in Forum: Dark matter/energy   Next in Forum: Climate Change Indicators: Drought
Close
Close
Close
22 comments
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 44.56024"N 15.307971E
Posts: 6940
Good Answers: 253

Self powered transport

08/20/2022 8:11 AM

Does anyone remember seeing a self powered transport cart used in a factory that carried products or parts and returned under it's own power?

It had a spring motor and the destination was slightly lower than the start.The spring wound up on the way to the destination when loaded,and unwound carrying it back empty for another load.

I have not seen anything about this in years,but it looks like a very efficient method.

It could also use counterweights and pulleys instead of spring motors.

With careful planning,it could be used about anywhere, for example:in cities,hospitals,etc. to transport people from building to building above the street level.

Put gravity to work!

__________________
"A man never stands so tall as when he stoops to help a child." "Never argue with a stupid person.They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience"
Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: by the beach in Florida
Posts: 31852
Good Answers: 1751
#1

Re: self powered tranport

08/20/2022 2:28 PM

There was a mining operation that used gravity for transport of the ore, it was an elevated line with tower supports, the full buckets would come down the mountain lifting the now empty buckets back up the side of the mountain to be refilled...

__________________
All living things seek to control their own destiny....this is the purpose of life
Register to Reply
2
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Land of Shining Waters
Posts: 902
Good Answers: 35
#4
In reply to #1

Re: self powered tranport

08/20/2022 5:40 PM

It's not a stretch to put the Peterborough Lift Lock in the same category. The top caisson stops one foot lower than the upper canal bed, thereby filling with a greater weight of water (144 tons more) than the caisson in the lower position. Via hydraulics, as the top caisson descends, its extra weight pushes the lower caisson up, and the process is then ready to be repeated. My home town. The lift lock has been in continuous operation for 118 years. National historic site.

__________________
It is easier to let the cat out of the bag than to put the cat back in the bag.
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 44.56024"N 15.307971E
Posts: 6940
Good Answers: 253
#5
In reply to #4

Re: self powered tranport

08/20/2022 6:18 PM

That is a very good example of common sense mechanical engineering that puts gravity to work without external power source.

Hats off to the design engineer(s).

__________________
"A man never stands so tall as when he stoops to help a child." "Never argue with a stupid person.They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience"
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Land of Shining Waters
Posts: 902
Good Answers: 35
#10
In reply to #5

Re: self powered tranport

08/21/2022 11:01 AM

It was the brainchild of Richard Birdsall Rogers, chief engineer on the project. Rogers Street and Rogers Cove in Peterborough are named after him. Descendants of his still live in the area - ran into Daphne Rogers (musician and poet) just the other day.

About 50 years ago the manual valves and gate locks were replaced with electrically operated valves and locks. Completely unnecessary for proper operation but enables centralized control from the lockmaster's booth. It's a beautiful thing to see in operation. Moves in utter silence. Been through it twice. Trent Canal connects Lake Ontario and Lake Huron. Very scenic route. Recreational boaters from all over eastern Canada and the US come through.

__________________
It is easier to let the cat out of the bag than to put the cat back in the bag.
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 44.56024"N 15.307971E
Posts: 6940
Good Answers: 253
#11
In reply to #10

Re: self powered tranport

08/21/2022 11:33 AM

Very few ideas can survive that long,much less the mechanisms generated by those ideas.This is a well deserved tribute to Mr RB Rogers.It has outlived it's inventor and will probably be still working in another hundred years or more.The principles are so basic.

__________________
"A man never stands so tall as when he stoops to help a child." "Never argue with a stupid person.They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience"
Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Been there, done that. Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 15285
Good Answers: 940
#12
In reply to #11

Re: self powered tranport

08/21/2022 2:14 PM

I'm sure a few bearing changes have occurred over time.

__________________
"Don't disturb my circles." translation of Archimedes last words
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 44.56024"N 15.307971E
Posts: 6940
Good Answers: 253
#20
In reply to #11

Re: self powered tranport

08/23/2022 4:54 AM

Another enduring design comes to mind:Railroads.

The basic principle has endured and probably will continue into the foreseeable future.

Upgrades have been made,and will continue to be made as technology improves,but the basic idea will still be valid.

The precursor of modern railroads was developed in the 1500's as a wooden track for wagons,and eventually evolved to steel,steam,diesel electric,Maglev,etc.

The basic simple designs will long endure.

After humans have migrated or disappeared from this planet,another species may put them back to work..who knows?

__________________
"A man never stands so tall as when he stoops to help a child." "Never argue with a stupid person.They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience"
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: May 2018
Location: Under the spreading Bunya Trees, South Burnett, Queensland, Australia
Posts: 658
Good Answers: 59
#6
In reply to #1

Re: self powered tranport

08/21/2022 5:39 AM

With reference to SE post. From watching the youtube channel on Ghost Town Living this process was employed at the Cerro Gordo mine where the full buckets travelled down an aerial wire way and pulled the empty buckets back to the starting point of the cable way.

__________________
Hare today, goon tomorrow!
Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Been there, done that. Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 15285
Good Answers: 940
#2

Re: self powered tranport

08/20/2022 3:43 PM

No, it cannot be used anywhere. It can only be used where the payload needs to be delivered to a lower potential energy location.

__________________
"Don't disturb my circles." translation of Archimedes last words
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 44.56024"N 15.307971E
Posts: 6940
Good Answers: 253
#3
In reply to #2

Re: self powered tranport

08/20/2022 4:17 PM

The transport carts I saw were loaded from a conveyor table higher than the receiving platform,and as they traveled,the spring motor was loaded.When the load was dumped,the spring motor unwound and returned the empty,lighter cart to the start position.The carts traveled on tracks in the floor.

Like SE said about the mining operation.

The receiving position does not have to be very much lower than the loading position.

So a person would have to walk up a few steps when departing to ride to the next building on the same level.Rinse and repeat as necessary.

Beats going down and up 20 floors by elevator and walking between buildings on the sidewalk.

__________________
"A man never stands so tall as when he stoops to help a child." "Never argue with a stupid person.They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience"
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Hemel Hempstead, UK
Posts: 5492
Good Answers: 297
#7

Re: self powered tranport

08/21/2022 6:06 AM

I have often wondered why MRTs (Mass Rapid Transport / underground / subway) are not designed like roller coasters.

I've only showed a small section of platform at either end, and "broken" the track between stations.

The initial drop needs to be about 5 metres to give a speed of 10 m/s (just over 20 mph) and the small slope between stations is just to overcome friction losses. The only traction power needed is for the up slope at the entry to the next station.

You would need an easily deployable winch for emergencies.

I guess the biggest problem is that gentle slope between stations: longer legs could have intermediate traction sections.

__________________
We are alone in the universe, or, we are not. Either way it's incredible... Adapted from R. Buckminster Fuller/Arthur C. Clarke
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 44.56024"N 15.307971E
Posts: 6940
Good Answers: 253
#8
In reply to #7

Re: self powered tranport

08/21/2022 6:40 AM

This could be deployed from both ends,giving two way traffic.Use a magnetic reluctance brake at the ends to reduce and control speed with no friction wear.( An aluminum disc sandwiched between permanent magnets). A generator could also be employed to harness the excess energy on the down hill side.This energy could be used to provide lighting loads in the pods,etc.

Magnetic reluctance could also be used for emergency elevators,to go down at a rapid but controlled speed,with no power requirements.Imagine dropping a permanent magnet through a copper tube for instance.Very useful in case of a power failure.

__________________
"A man never stands so tall as when he stoops to help a child." "Never argue with a stupid person.They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience"
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Hemel Hempstead, UK
Posts: 5492
Good Answers: 297
#13
In reply to #8

Re: self powered tranport

08/22/2022 9:18 AM

No need for a brake except for emergencies; the kinetic energy is all used up in the first 5 metres of climb at the end station.

__________________
We are alone in the universe, or, we are not. Either way it's incredible... Adapted from R. Buckminster Fuller/Arthur C. Clarke
Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Old New Member

Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: South east U.K.
Posts: 3558
Good Answers: 93
#14
In reply to #7

Re: self powered tranport

08/22/2022 9:25 AM

Would all of the passengers have to wave their hands in the air on the downward parts?

__________________
I didn't have a really important life, but at least it's been funny (Lemmy Kilminster 1945-2015)
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Been there, done that. Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 15285
Good Answers: 940
#15
In reply to #14

Re: self powered tranport

08/22/2022 2:39 PM

Only if they want the blood flow rush.

__________________
"Don't disturb my circles." translation of Archimedes last words
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Power-User

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
Posts: 172
Good Answers: 12
#19
In reply to #7

Re: self powered tranport

08/23/2022 2:14 AM

Conservation of energy stuff. If you start and stop at the same elevation, you'll need some form of power to overcome wheel-to-rail friction losses (more so if there are curves) as well as aerodynamic losses, irrespective of whether the line is level or undulating. Aerodynamic losses increase with speed - in open air, the power required to overcome aerodynamic losses increases proportional to the cube of the speed, for example (not sure about inside the confines of tunnels). This implies that lower peak speeds would probably be the most optimal from an energy conservation perspective. There are software used for this when designing open track routes, but I'm not familiar with subway designs and its limitations linked to underground features such as building piles, municipal services, riverbeds, geology, etc. I'd like to do a search later on for any research done in this regard.

Of course, if the gradients are such that you need to brake to control speed on downhills, regenerative braking should be used to save on energy.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Hemel Hempstead, UK
Posts: 5492
Good Answers: 297
#21
In reply to #19

Re: self powered tranport

08/23/2022 6:36 AM

"Aerodynamic losses increase with speed"

It might be beneficial to blow/suck air through the tunnel: this might even do away with the need for the shallow slope between stations.

__________________
We are alone in the universe, or, we are not. Either way it's incredible... Adapted from R. Buckminster Fuller/Arthur C. Clarke
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 44.56024"N 15.307971E
Posts: 6940
Good Answers: 253
#9

Re: self powered tranport

08/21/2022 6:45 AM

Escalators use very little power,even when fully loaded because the loads are pretty much evenly balanced between both sides.Mainly friction losses and unbalanced loads.

__________________
"A man never stands so tall as when he stoops to help a child." "Never argue with a stupid person.They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience"
Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Nuclear Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Louisville, OH
Posts: 1569
Good Answers: 29
#16

Re: Self powered transport

08/22/2022 5:24 PM

Sounds like another version of perpetual motion! Some energy has to be put in somewhere to get the loads to the higher elevation.

__________________
Lehman57
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 44.56024"N 15.307971E
Posts: 6940
Good Answers: 253
#17
In reply to #16

Re: Self powered transport

08/22/2022 5:58 PM

Think about it.The energy is from the higher elevation of the water.

That is because of the geography of the land

Like harnessing a water fall in principle.Gravity is the energy source in this case.

Putting gravity to work.

__________________
"A man never stands so tall as when he stoops to help a child." "Never argue with a stupid person.They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience"
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Land of Shining Waters
Posts: 902
Good Answers: 35
#18
In reply to #16

Re: Self powered transport

08/22/2022 6:36 PM

If you are referring to the lift lock I described - I live within walking distance of it. It is powered entirely by gravity - the weight of the additional 140 tons of water that flows into the upper chamber, which is 65 feet above the lower chamber. To my knowledge, in its 118 years of operation it has only been shut down once during the boating season. Fifty years ago, shortly after the valves and gates were converted from manual to electrical operation, one of the gates came open on the ascending chamber. Fortunately it was only a few feet into the lift. Several small boats were swept out in the torrent and into the lower canal. The boats were bashed up but if memory serves me there were no serious injuries. It was determined that the lockmaster's control panel had given a false indication that the gate was locked. Since that time, a visual inspection is made to ensure all gate locks are engaged before opening the crossover valve to start the ascend/descend cycle.

__________________
It is easier to let the cat out of the bag than to put the cat back in the bag.
Register to Reply
Guru
Australia - Member - New Member

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 2136
Good Answers: 251
#22

Re: Self powered transport

08/25/2022 7:54 AM

I seem to remember seeing a rail documentary about an iron ore mine that used the energy derived from downhill braking of the full trains headed to port to power the empty return train back up the major incline.

Somewhere in northern Europe. Was impressed by the intentional utilisation of the energy rather than friction brakes.

__________________
Just an Engineer from the land down under.
Register to Reply
Register to Reply 22 comments
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

canadianslidewinder (3); gideon (1); HiTekRedNek (7); Just an Engineer (1); Lehman57 (1); Nigh (1); Randall (3); redfred (3); SolarEagle (1); Stef (1)

Previous in Forum: Dark matter/energy   Next in Forum: Climate Change Indicators: Drought

Advertisement