Few Have Knowledge They Can Apply or Even Understand

My dad was a licensed professional engineer.

He didn't have a degree.

He always said his alma mater was "The School of Hard Knocks". He worked his way up through the engineering organization starting out as filing clerk. Then worked his way to a drafting board. Continued to learn on the job and began designing. Then onto engineering. He had mentors and learned from them. Spent a lot of time reading too. A multi-disciplinary engineer, he knew electrical and electronics, mechanical, thermodynamic, and control systems. Spent a good deal of his time in pulp and paper. Also into hyrdo-power, cotton bleaching, even a chocolate factory.

I recall him making a comment about some of his "more qualified" co-workers back in the Seventies, that some people were "educated beyond their intelligence". Folks who had PhD's in engineering but couldn't layout a lighting plan for a factory.

I have seen geniuses that have a wheelbarrow following them to carry their brains in,especially in low level programming and design,but they could not change a tire or use a microwave oven.

I once saw a very educated person that tried to get a solvent from a barrel.

The barrel was standing upright,on a tilt cart,with the faucet/valve on top.He did not tilt the barrel,so he reported back that the barrel was empty because noting came out of the faucet.

I felt sorry for this man,because he had no common sense at all.

There's no such thing as common sense, if there were then everyone would have some. It should be referred to as uncommon sense.

I’ve also seen genius also carry their chit for brains in wheelborrows.

I have always been impressed by folks that got their PE without an Engineering degree. Big kudos to your father, Robin.

To the others here that are unfamiliar, an accredited Engineering Degree was not always required to be allowed to "sit" for the PE. This change came about several years ago and varies by state.

These PEs could APPLY some thermodynamics, metallurgy, electrical theory (empirical relationships not just how to wire stuff), chemistry, statics, strength of materials, rectilinear motion etc. They were not just experienced tradesmen but studied science often on their own and could apply it. Impressive.

Just a point for those that don't know. A PE today typically must have an Engineering degree from an ACEDDITED engineering school. This degree allows you to "sit" for the exam. There are many Degreed Engineers that could "sit" for it but never wanted the PE certification. I'm one of them. Once you get that certification from the government you are viewed differently. When things go wrong people want to sue you or bring charges against you if things go wrong. Even if it is in no way your fault. Also I have learned over the years that to me actual PE work seems repetitive and boring.

You don’t need a degree to pass to get your PE licenses…

I’ve worked with engineers both college educated as well as self taugh that have PE licenses.

and frankly, I’ve worked with failures mostly from the college educated PE. It’s unbelievable how they would avoid taking responsibility. And if they have a business, and their stamped drawings fail, they just declare bankruptcy and start another business, I’ve never heard any of them getting their licenses revoked.

While the uneducated or lower (and by lower, I mean someone with an associate degree(s) ) educated engineers. Because they know they could be wrong and second check themselves.

This I think has always been the way of things...knowledge ≠ intelligence ...knowing things and understanding things makes all the difference....I started as an apprentice and worked at learning my trade for my entire lifetime...mentors were the most helpful, if you want to be one of the best you have to learn from one of the best...you must actively seek out knowledge in a relentless manner...but you must be intelligent enough to retain the information, or it will take forever....I always liked to take new mechanics out into the field to see what they actually knew, and see what ability and desire they had to learn...after about a week i knew if they had what it takes...

I fully agree with your sentiments on many "engineers" I have had to work with over the years having started as an Electrical apprentice and working in the energy sector all my working life. One company only made people with a degree, didn't mater what it was, basket weaving, chicken preparation, supervisors.

A large number of those I worked with I termed paper geniuses, watch the paper cuts! We installed a set of 132KV busbars to one engineers design and they sagged horribly. When he said that was unusual I quipped, "well it was designed by an engineer!" Like any field there are good engineers grounded in basics, but a lot are oxygen thieves.

This is so true. I believe that we have seen a decline in the UK since the practical polytechnic colleges were upgraded to universities. The old route for engineers by way of apprenticeships has also declined. Too many people seem to only want to sit at a computer.

I mostly work on a computer myself but I can still jump on a lathe or mill to make the parts if required &, when designing parts, I always consider the manufacturing processes required.

Posted in error..

I am also an old engineer. But, I am also frustrated...but that is a vent for a different time.

I agree with this sentiment. But, I also know when I came out of a pretty good engineering program in college, I was still so far from being qualified. So my suggestion to "old" engineers is to also practice some empathy, some patience, and most of all, be willing to guide new engineers. Not do the hard work for them, but a suggestion to study should never be withheld. The sad fact is that you will have to do this over and over again. New engineers need to be reminded constantly that learning engineering is a constant process. And then they will leave for a higher paying job and you will have to start all over with a new engineer.

I totally agree that all engineers should read a lot. Even old engineers. When given a new assignment, tackle the background behind the problem on your own. Don't wait to be told. If doing a parking lot layout, learn about the pros and cons of different alignments, traffic flows, etc.

My engineering library is packed with books. But today's engineers do not need my library. The internet is full of resources. Today's engineers have ready access to more information than I ever had. But they do not seem to utilize it. So, I have to ride their case to make sure they understand that have a stake in their future. Like you, I comment often and I probably come across as overly critical. Oh well. It seems it has been assigned to me by powers greater than me that the final years of my engineering are to help mold the next generation. So, I will take that as seriously as I took every other engineering assignment in my career.

Good day.

Same here... Old Engineer,,, it looklike you are describing our young Mexican Engineers.

Terrible issue with their knowledge.

In my personal interpretation.... "ignorancy is not the problem but provoque irresponsability and lazyness"

Very difficult to have confidence with this new Engineers.

Sad... so sad.

Also an old engineer from Ohio. I agree with everyone posting, but I believe the youngsters need more field experience physically working with mentors out and about the factory.

Getting a degree should be the beginning of education,not the end of it.A voracious omnivorous reader that studies far outside of his profession will be more well rounded than a CPE (Certified Professional Engineer)with multiple degrees.He will find connections between seemingly unrelated subjects and come up with more creative ideas.

I have found it easier on my beginning students to compare electricity to water flow.They can picture water easier than electrons,but once they have that first step, they will pick up the gauntlet and want to know more.At least the best ones will.

The comparison with water can only go so far,but they will find other examples that will correlate to electrical theories.

Water pressure as voltage,resistance as friction in the pipes,tanks as capacitors,etc.

I still compare electrics to water, it makes more sense to me.

I started in engineering in 1970, got my Masters in 2008 as a mature student, mainly for my own satisfaction.

I agree with that which you say, my biggest annoyance was the arrogance displayed when they would say that work is below my pay scale you do it or conversely you are making decisions above your pay scale. Everyone can learn from people who have done the hard slog.

I think it cuts both ways. My employer calls me a Process Engineer and they even printed that on a business card with my name and everything! However, I have a degree in Economics. My degree got me in the door for an interview. Intelligence, common sense, and a healthy appetite for new knowledge has allowed me to thrive.

Now, I'm not necessarily old, but I am old enough to see that the problem is a generational one. As more and more of our spring-makers retire, we've had to replace them with much younger button-pushers. They really do not understand a single part of the process; nor do they desire to understand it (which is the real issue). Sadly, it is the exact same story in the engineering office. No real world experience, but these kids can whip up a 3-D model in a flash! I prefer to call them CAD-jockeys.

It is very odd that some (not you) consider a well done 3-D model or CAD work as Engineering. There are many that because they can draw stuff even in 3-D think they are doing Engineering. I am not saying Engineers don't draw but most of it is just slightly better quality drafting, even if it is in 3-D.

An example of drawing that is engineering is a first cut drawing of complex interfaces between items due to thermal expansion. Another example would be using Engineering principals to determine spacing of items based on distance vs temperature due to heat transfer. Another would be using pump forces or cylinder reaction to work out a frame with linkage and available bearing space due to the technical bearing style choices (plain, ball, thrust, conical roller etc). Then the engineered layout is turned over to designers or detailers.

I have seen plenty of tube jockeys think they are doing Engineering.

The following example includes portions that knowledgeable technical people like engineers, ones with good CAD skills, skilled welder and industrial mechanics are ALL needed. I have seen plenty of tube jockeys think they are doing Engineering. Also I have seen mechanics think they could do better than engineers. When it comes to engineers that can't do Engineering, and there are many, yes the mechanic can do better. At least a good mechanic may have some kind of experience they could apply. But if it requires real engineering like dynamics, statics, thermo, higher level control DESIGN, power transmission loading and design, metallurgy, chemistry you better have an Engineer that FITS THE TITLE.

Recently a piece of equipment that sees heavy reparative loads (possibly fatigue), vibration and some impact loading broke off at the bearing support. The machine weights many tons and is supported only on bearings. The the bearings that supports it is two feet in diameter. One had broken clear out of the casting because over time, production and maintenance had not kept it clean and lubricated. This caused a bearing to wear into the support hosing. This is something I had warned them about over and over. This old piece of equipment was long out of production. A new 6 foot diameter casting would have been needed that I would have to draw and have made. This would have caused a months long down time of a production line that all product is sold out long before production.

I did spark testing to determine the broken parts carbon content to see if it was even weldable to a reasonable degree and still maintain a little ductility. I also did weld and breakage tests with a welders help to see if the substrate was embrittled by the welding. I also determined pre-heat post-heat temperature levels for welding and to determine which rod should be used. After doing some statics/strength of materials estimates I determined just welding it would very possibly not hold. Moment loading was a serious issue. So I designed a second joint encasing the repaired joint with the limited space. This encasing was based on rough stress calculations. Next I drew it up and had the new pieces fabricated. I got three experienced welders with repair knowledge to weld it with my specified process around the clock for several days. Both the original joint and the "overjoint" was put together.

The thing was reassembled and has been running well for several months. I am not saying I did anything special nor did the welders. General technical processes is what Engineers do. At least ones that want to see satisfaction and be able to apply what we should have learned.

Reminds me of an incident many years ago, a Royal Navy vessel had a rotating radar array break free & fall to the deck. This had no doubt been designed with all of the operating conditions taken into account to ensure that it worked correctly. The radar dish was mounted on a circular flange with perhaps 20 heavy bolts but these had sheared. It was eventually found that the ship's Captain was a bit OCD &, when that array was not in use, always wanted the long dish to be aligned with the ship centreline. He would have the radar operator stab at the inching button until he was happy with the alignment. This repetitive shock loading had fatigued the bolts which eventually failed.

Engineering is mainly a mindset. S.M.