Previous in Forum: Special Formula Plastic Film   Next in Forum: Radio Programs from the 1940s Received on Modern Equipment
Close
Close
Close
22 comments
Rate Comments: Nested
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 44.56024"N 15.307971E
Posts: 8277
Good Answers: 270

Geo Storm Affects Farmers' Tractors

05/14/2024 9:30 AM

Farmers all over were affected by the solar storm recently. It made their GPS guidance systems for their tractors useless, and there was no manual override function and the tractors drove in circles, like a drunk. How did they get things done before the advent of this hi tech?

Farmers could plow a straight line with mules, and had no problems.

We have become too dependent on satellites for everything in society.

Farmers could bypass GPS by embedding magnets deep underground and arranged in a binary fashion: North South/... South /North with polarity sensitive detectors and a correction sequence periodically to reset zero to compensate for accumulative errors, such as mud or dirt on wheels which would change the revolutions count on the tractor. Further codes could be developed for better resolution if needed.

Data should be stored for future use, and used to calculate future movement in case of failure.

This could be used as primary or back up position tracking, or as a last resort of course, manual steering. Not as accurate, but better than running in circles.

It is silly to put all of your eggs in one basket. American farming could be shut down by loss of one or more satellites, while the old-fashioned 3rd world countries would just keep on keeping on.

And this is only one instance of being too dependent on computers and GPS positioning.Nearly everything is dependent on satellite data,banking,power grid,etc.

I do not advocate throwing out the baby with the bath water,but there should be a backup for critical systems.

The Navy still trains for Morse Code as a backup.

__________________
"A man never stands so tall as when he stoops to help a child." "Never argue with a stupid person.They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience" "To create an apple pie from scratch, first you must create a universe"
Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: by the beach in Florida
Posts: 33392
Good Answers: 1817
#1

Re: Geo Storm Affects Farmers' Tractors

05/14/2024 10:36 AM

I never met a farmer yet that didn't have a few old tractors lying around...

__________________
All living things seek to control their own destiny....this is the purpose of life
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 44.56024"N 15.307971E
Posts: 8277
Good Answers: 270
#5
In reply to #1

Re: Geo Storm Affects Farmers' Tractors

05/14/2024 9:37 PM

There are many old 50+ year old tractors around,but are they ready to work,or will they need a lot of work to get back in service?

I wish they made new tractors as durable and serviceable as the old ones.I don't think you will see any modern tractors in 50 years,unless they are in a museum.

__________________
"A man never stands so tall as when he stoops to help a child." "Never argue with a stupid person.They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience" "To create an apple pie from scratch, first you must create a universe"
Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Nuclear Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Louisville, OH
Posts: 1926
Good Answers: 36
#8
In reply to #1

Re: Geo Storm Affects Farmers' Tractors

05/15/2024 12:47 PM

The far left gray one (International?) looks good, and the 4th from the left has a single front wheel which is probably rare.

__________________
Lehman57
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 44.56024"N 15.307971E
Posts: 8277
Good Answers: 270
#9
In reply to #8

Re: Geo Storm Affects Farmers' Tractors

05/16/2024 4:23 AM

The good thing about the single front wheel is after you plow your first row,you could put the front wheel in the furrow you just plowed and it would steer itself and plow the next one with hands off.There were quite a few models that used the single front wheel.Some farmers took off one of the double front wheels to get the same self steering effect.

Farmers were so used to plowing with mules,they did not know what to do with a steering wheel,so some tractors were fitted with steering chains..no joke.Hi tech shock,I guess.

Nowadays I guess they would have made them voice command,GEE!(r) HAW!(l)

One day,cars will be self driving,like the Jetsons. In the meantime,a 5year old kid will be able to drive your car better than you,using a joystick or thought control with a brain interface.

As usual,sci-fi is way ahead of reality.

I remember, reading a sci-fi book over 50 years ago where people and machines were at war,and the machine reflexes were far ahead of humans.A professor figured out that the autonomic human reflexes like touching a hot stove were faster,and trained people to use that reflex to defeat the machines.

__________________
"A man never stands so tall as when he stoops to help a child." "Never argue with a stupid person.They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience" "To create an apple pie from scratch, first you must create a universe"
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: nj,usa
Posts: 1253
Good Answers: 33
#16
In reply to #8

Re: Geo Storm Affects Farmers' Tractors

05/18/2024 10:50 AM

The single wheel is an older, 40s early 50s, tractor. The front wheel is actually 2 wheels that can be separated to repair or replace one or both.

__________________
CARPE CRUSTULORUM!
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 44.56024"N 15.307971E
Posts: 8277
Good Answers: 270
#17
In reply to #16

Re: Geo Storm Affects Farmers' Tractors

05/18/2024 11:49 AM

Here is a link to many one- front- wheel- tractors:

https://talk.newagtalk.com/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=504826&DisplayType=flat

__________________
"A man never stands so tall as when he stoops to help a child." "Never argue with a stupid person.They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience" "To create an apple pie from scratch, first you must create a universe"
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 44.56024"N 15.307971E
Posts: 8277
Good Answers: 270
#19
In reply to #16

Re: Geo Storm Affects Farmers' Tractors

05/21/2024 10:18 AM

I will never argue with you.

__________________
"A man never stands so tall as when he stoops to help a child." "Never argue with a stupid person.They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience" "To create an apple pie from scratch, first you must create a universe"
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: About 4000 miles from the center of the earth (+/-100 mi)
Posts: 9912
Good Answers: 1141
#2

Re: Geo Storm Affects Farmers' Tractors

05/14/2024 2:45 PM

I suppose you could bury a wire and put a signal on it like the utilities folks do for locating buried wires and pipes. The question is whether it would be cost effective, given that this was a 20 year event and only lasted a couple of days.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 44.56024"N 15.307971E
Posts: 8277
Good Answers: 270
#4
In reply to #2

Re: Geo Storm Affects Farmers' Tractors

05/14/2024 9:33 PM

A geo storm is not the only thing that can shut down the GPS satellites,I am thinking of an enemy doing it..or an EMP burst from high altitude.It could severely affect the entire country.

__________________
"A man never stands so tall as when he stoops to help a child." "Never argue with a stupid person.They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience" "To create an apple pie from scratch, first you must create a universe"
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 44.56024"N 15.307971E
Posts: 8277
Good Answers: 270
#6
In reply to #2

Re: Geo Storm Affects Farmers' Tractors

05/14/2024 9:46 PM

I have seen wire guided robots that were guided by magnets embedded in the concrete.It told them where to turn,stop,load,unload and return to queuing station for the next order.They are used in factories like GM.

The magnets were positioned in a coded manner with polarity sensing reed switches in the robot,and a tachometer monitoring wheel rotations and calculating position with correction codes used to compensate for irregularities in the wheel and floor.

The same could be done wirelessly with only buried magnets to give position.

The cost would be a lot less than one failed crop.

__________________
"A man never stands so tall as when he stoops to help a child." "Never argue with a stupid person.They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience" "To create an apple pie from scratch, first you must create a universe"
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 44.56024"N 15.307971E
Posts: 8277
Good Answers: 270
#7
In reply to #6

Re: Geo Storm Affects Farmers' Tractors

05/15/2024 7:54 AM

Imagine a series of magnets,coded such that the first magnets compose a "start read" code,then the last magnet bits have a check sum and a parity bit and the final bit(s) is the "end read" code.

How much would it cost to bore a small 2 Inch(50 MM) or less hole below the subsoiler depth to place the magnets of proper polarity and spacing.It would not have to be done all at once,but incorporated over time at say,end of season,or even adding an attachment(second "boot") below the subsoiler to place the magnets like a seeder does with seed.The magnets could be flipped alternately when needed to create the desired code.Initially the magnets would align themselves in the chute with same polarity,but when flipped,they would repel themselves down the placement chute by the mutual repulsion of the magnet above.

I have an image in my mind of how this would work,but not the necessary skill to draft it in total.

Someone with more sand in the top of their hour glass could further develop this idea.I put this out for public consumption so that it may not be patented,but free for all to use.

Accuracy of position would depend on spacing and design of the code,down to the mm if required.

A Faraday shield,perhaps charged,around all computer functions would shield from nefarious or natural interference.

This would replace the need for GPS eventually and form a more secure guidance system.

Just thinkin'.

__________________
"A man never stands so tall as when he stoops to help a child." "Never argue with a stupid person.They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience" "To create an apple pie from scratch, first you must create a universe"
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: About 4000 miles from the center of the earth (+/-100 mi)
Posts: 9912
Good Answers: 1141
#13
In reply to #7

Re: Geo Storm Affects Farmers' Tractors

05/16/2024 12:19 PM

That's an interesting idea. It's sort of like a hard drive, only on a much larger scale and with lower data density.

It just might work if you can protect the magnets from the environment and the plow disks.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: by the beach in Florida
Posts: 33392
Good Answers: 1817
#3

Re: Geo Storm Affects Farmers' Tractors

05/14/2024 5:32 PM

I think all you would need is a field code number and a locator, instead of locating wires along the rows all you need to do is start in the same place facing the same direction and replay a recorded program for that field...If there is a time variation due to field conditions then you might get by with a location beacon at the start and end of each row...or perhaps a laser positioning system...then again cost comes into play..

__________________
All living things seek to control their own destiny....this is the purpose of life
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
Posts: 230
Good Answers: 16
#10

Re: Geo Storm Affects Farmers' Tractors

05/16/2024 4:45 AM

It seems that the issue was (obviously) debilitating with self-driving equipment. But from the John Deer correspondence, it seems that tractors could still be manually operated. Precision farming was impacted, but then that is the price you pay - a once in 11 yrs outage of a few days. If GPS is deteriorated by malicious actors, then farmers can go back to "normal" farming with somewhat lower output per hectare, plus probably higher input costs per hectare, unless they only have fully autonomous equipment.

Wires in the ground are complicated in farming: the rows are not always the same as you change crops or layouts, and you sometimes have to deep-break the ground. Radio direction finder - type of positioning will probably be less intrusive and still accurate enough?

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 44.56024"N 15.307971E
Posts: 8277
Good Answers: 270
#11
In reply to #10

Re: Geo Storm Affects Farmers' Tractors

05/16/2024 5:14 AM

That is why I mentioned buried magnets instead of wires.Much cheaper and easier to install.Install them deeper than the subsoiler by attaching a feeder chute below the subsoiler.,and code them with alternating N/ S polarity.Row placement,once established would be permanent.No GPS needed.Row spacing could also be accommodated with coded magnet arrays.Grey code could be used for absolute positioning and would not be lost in case of power failure.

__________________
"A man never stands so tall as when he stoops to help a child." "Never argue with a stupid person.They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience" "To create an apple pie from scratch, first you must create a universe"
Register to Reply
Active Contributor

Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 21
#12

Re: Geo Storm Affects Farmers' Tractors

05/16/2024 11:26 AM

The LORAN system was a good navigation system that didnt depend on high end electronics. Might not be accurate enough by itself (accurate to 100s of feet) for this specific purpose but other methods could get there.

We did away with LORAN since GPS satellites became so dependable but many, many people wanted a backup knowing how vulnerable they are. LORAN is hard to jam or easily disable as LORAN uses low frequency radio signals. Some are working to make a more accurate and longer range version with less infrastructure needs (eLORAN).

But unless something bad happens, it probably wont be deployed as most Politicians refuse to learn from past mistakes and prefer to make "new" ones.

Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Nuclear Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Louisville, OH
Posts: 1926
Good Answers: 36
#14

Re: Geo Storm Affects Farmers' Tractors

05/16/2024 3:27 PM

I was outside enjoying the nice weather today when a couple of tractors went down the road. Suddenly it dawned on me that we're making this topic much too complex. The tractors would have to have a way of operating on the highway; therefore there is a simple way to turn the GPS off and manually steer it. If the GPS refuses to operate as it should, just shut it off.

__________________
Lehman57
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Power-User

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Sydney . Australia
Posts: 418
Good Answers: 35
#15

Re: Geo Storm Affects Farmers' Tractors

05/18/2024 4:35 AM

redundancy is lacking in many areas of critical infrastructure , Navigation , communications , hospitals data management and patient care systems.

Its not only GPS that is affected by a Solar Storm , from may 11 - 14th i had a brand new I-Phone battery that died , a Solar Inverter died , and GPS wouldnt navigate closer to 300 metres accuracy .

Thats just from a Solar Storm , What will everyone do in response to an EMP when the doors at your bank wont open , the owners of companies that fill ATM Cash machines have been told not to fill them with cash , Crypto and CBDC cant be traded , Govt mandates it illegal to possess cash or gold , mobile phone and WiFi have all died , Electricity Grid is offline , no trucks on the road , no fuel in the gas stations , no food in the shops and friendly neighbours start killing each other for a sandwich ...
First World countries run by 3rd world government , controlled by shadowy figures in the family of Bankers.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 1056
Good Answers: 88
#18

Re: Geo Storm Affects Farmers' Tractors

05/21/2024 3:32 AM

Expecting the Morse code to somehow help you in a modern battle isn't the most st*pid thing I'm aware USN is thinking lately, just close.

Anyway, farming related automation is way more than absolute positioning, with two electronic "beacons" appropriately distanced, a revolving directional receiver on each machine and some electronic hocus pocus you can get perfect positioning on local level. But automation can be from determining the seed, fertilizer and watering params per premapped area, to automatic seeding and harvesting according to previous years' statistics and weather, and since all that technology is propriatery to machinery companies there's not much inscentive for changes. Not even for conventional aspects like machinery maintenance. Smaller scale farmers do try to react, but...

Anyway, these problems, coming from rapid change, will get resolved with time, the one thing I hope, considering the international situation, is we'll not need radiation hardened equipment any time soon. S.M.

__________________
Life is complex. It has a real part and an imaginary part.
Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Nuclear Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Louisville, OH
Posts: 1926
Good Answers: 36
#20
In reply to #18

Re: Geo Storm Affects Farmers' Tractors

05/21/2024 12:28 PM

Morse code is stupid?

Several months ago I saw (YouTube??) a speed contest between Morse and smart phone texting. Morse code won!

__________________
Lehman57
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 1056
Good Answers: 88
#21
In reply to #20

Re: Geo Storm Affects Farmers' Tractors

05/22/2024 6:11 AM

Wouldn't argue smartphone texting is any smarter in a morden battle. S.M.

__________________
Life is complex. It has a real part and an imaginary part.
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 44.56024"N 15.307971E
Posts: 8277
Good Answers: 270
#22
In reply to #21

Re: Geo Storm Affects Farmers' Tractors

05/22/2024 7:05 AM

Modern devices are very nice and convenient,but it is still valuable to know how to survive off grid,build a fire,hunt and forage.When the S.H.T.F.,the HAM operators will be the only form of long distance communication,and these guy speak Morse Code like a second language and have MC generators that can send an receive faster than any human.Not digital,analog,but can be converted to any language if required when digital is eventually revived from it's cold slumber.

They can build and repair their own equipment when needed.

Hats Off To HAMS(H.O.T.H.)Always nice to have a back up plan,(but I will never argue with you).

__________________
"A man never stands so tall as when he stoops to help a child." "Never argue with a stupid person.They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience" "To create an apple pie from scratch, first you must create a universe"
Register to Reply
Register to Reply 22 comments

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

DinosaurDad (1); gideon (1); HiTekRedNek (9); Lehman57 (3); not so smart (1); Nothing is Impossible (1); Rixter (2); SimpleMind (2); SolarEagle (2)

Previous in Forum: Special Formula Plastic Film   Next in Forum: Radio Programs from the 1940s Received on Modern Equipment

Advertisement