Warning for Flood Prone Areas

Who will pay for flood sirens? There's no money...for flood sirens. Who or what triggers the flood sirens? NOAA did make a flood warning a few hours before the Texas flood. What locations are considered "flood-prone" enough to warrant a flood siren?

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You don't need a siren for every possible disaster, city's normally already have sirens.

What locations are considered "flood-prone" enough to warrant a flood siren?

Sirens are a warning, that is all, its up to the individual to notice and take the appropriate actions.

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My town, Louisville, OH, has had problems with the Nimishillen Creek flooding--nothing like Texas or the 1913 Ohio flood,l but destructive just the same. But weather can be spotty! Louisville itself might have fine weather, but a couple of miles upstream may have a cloudburst leading to flooding in Louisville, because the creek gets all the water in a short period of time (fast runoff is another story caused by modern "improvements.!!") The point being that non-weather areas also need the potent flood-warning alarm.

In Wisconsin a lot of towns have sirens, tornados and such.

They normally go off daily at noon as a test. A couple of times they went off when a tornado sighting is in the area. Last time I was working out sight, and a siren went off I stopped what I was doing and went inside and turned on the news.

RE: Flood Sirens. When I was in high school, every Friday at 12:00 noon the emergency sirens all over town would scream out their collective tests. These were a general alarm signal, and if not the weekly equipment test indicated we all should tune in to any local television or radio station for more information. Point here is, not dedicated to a big fire, or anticipated catastrophic flooding, or missiles from Cuba. Whilst these 60 odd foot tall faded yellow monsters remain in place in my town, I don’t believe they have been sounded in the last 20 years, victims of the new Information Age.

RE: NOAA and flood watch. From what I recall, flood warning issuance of all degrees are the responsibility of NWS, not NOAA. In the 4July flood in central Texas, NWS began a series of Flash Flood Warnings about 6 hours before rains started that contained phrases like “SEEK HIGHER GROUND NOW”, “catastrophic destruction”… the subject area of these warnings is commonly known as “Flash Flood Alley”.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_Flood_Alley

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I knew the Nirvana fallacy would eventually appear.

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The flood in Texas is a tragic disaster. Mitigating and reacting to any disaster is complicated. This CNN coverage expresses some of the complications and reasons for the responses taken.

It is impossible to prevent a similar disaster from ever happening. That doesn't mean improvements shouldn't be even attempted. That is the Nirvana Fallacy in action.

like was mentioned earlier,... education will help.

Like Covid, too many, "Someone should do something".

I see quite a few mentions of sirens in cities - I got the idea this was in a rural area, so you'll need a fair amount of them. But some sirens are probably better than nothing, hopefully your neighbours will check on you as well. Someone still has to pay for the design, procurement and maintenance of the whole system (from sensor to power supply to the actual siren) and the regular testing thereof.

Though I think (from far across the ocean) that there are better ways of cutting budgets than currently being done, there is an interesting article from the BBC analysing whether the cuts had anything to do with the issue at hand (https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/clyndrwz00xo), coming to the conclusion that, in this very specific case, it probably did not contribute. Sometimes the luck just isn't on your side, we cannot eliminate all risk from our lives.

Simple float switches in a stilling well be cheap as a trigger. . An existing system, like SCADA for water plants could signal an alarm level and be remotely triggered sirens from there. No need for new expensive system. I would volunteer my time freely if I lived in Texas. I am sure there are other like minded contractors that would do the same as a community service.

A TV announcement in the middle of the night will not be noticed by everyone. A weather radio would be very useful, as would blanket cell phone alerts to everyone with a cell phone. They do it now for missing persons, escaped convicts, etc. Just add the weather alert to the list of notifications. Some states already do this.

The simple economical methods I mentioned above would not break the bank.

Common sense seems to be a rare commodity in many places.

Hindsight is always 20/20,but that is also an opportunity to look ahead and prevent a repeat of that tragedy in the future.

I am sure there will be plenty of public support for any extra money for these projects. Perhaps a company could give everyone a weather radio, and mark it off of their taxes as a charitable contribution.

Thia is subjective...

One would have to look at the history... Such as, Was it considered a 100 year flood.

It’s a matter of compromise. Sure its devastating now, but in 1932, who ever was running Camp Mystic, a decision had to be made, such as affordability (that was in the mist of a depression) or, what are the chances of it happening again...

The decision may have been, lets stay, and we’ll have a plan or training, that eventually disappeared through complacency or what ever.

History? Okay.

Whilst thumbing around our beloved interweb news bits I came across one article that advises there have been around 500 unalive persons created by flash floods in Flash Flood Alley - in the last 20 years.

I cannot recall the article to cite. If I find it again, or some corroborating source, I’ll post it. Likewise, if anyone has something about this statistic, please let us know. Oh, there it is. In post #4, link to Wiki article, section ‘Major Floods’ therein. I see it does not specify FFA, might be the entire state of Texas.

Now what were the reasoning to stay. I gave some possibilities.

I just reviewed the Wiki article linked in #4, and it has been edited to say there have been 500 flash flood events in the referenced time period, not the 500 lost souls previously stated.

So, who knows what the reality is.

Where is Here?

Here is here, now, today, with the panacea of technology firmly in place… and in Texas people are still drowning in flash floods at a rate so disturbing, so alarming, so odious that this attrocity is being discussed on an Internet discussion forum right now… and nothing will change.

That is where ‘here’ is.

Some places in Texas are almost totally flat, but are subject to flash floods.

Palo Duro Canyon is the 2nd deepest canyon in the USA and it is subject to flash floods even when rain is falling 25 miles away. The water runs off of the flat land and goes to the lowest point. There is a small stream running through it, only a few inches deep, you can cross it in a vehicle easily, but during a flash flood, it can be over 50 feet deep. There may be blue skies but it does not matter. Everyone knows if there is a flash flood warning, GET OUT FAST.I have seen flood debris hanging on the sides of the cliff faces over 50 feet up. They have a musical every year in the canyon, but are wise enough to use it in the driest part of the year with the least history of flooding, but they don't let their guard down, they stay alert for warnings.

The after the fact bottom line that always prevail resulting in any kind of situations is the so-called "Priorities"!

The determining end result that matters will be whatever the Prevailing priorities adapted and in place by the persons, as influenced and shaped by things like politics, inclinations, availability of funds and other resources....

There! There it is.

GA, and if I could place a flashy yellow border around this comment, I would.

Alarm sirens, pocket radio for everyone, Float switches… don’t need it. Common sense, learn from the past, situational awareness… these work.

To sum it up: Common sense.

Sadly though, there are many who are oblivious to their surroundings and past experiences, and this seems to be passed down from generation to generation.

An AIRHORN in their ear might get their attention.(Might,that is.)

Thanks for the GA!

See my post number 17.

OK.

I will rephrase that to suit you:

Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.. Edmund Burke

Float switches, and similar, would not be adequate! We need something that will announce something like: "In ten minutes from XX PM a flood will be here." Some causes are remote from the effects!

Location, location, location. The further upstream the longer the warning time ahead of the rising water.

It depends on where they are located and multiple locations and multilevel switches could trigger multilevel warnings, via existing SCADA systems. Nearly every potable water plant in the USA has a SCADA (Supervisory Control And Data Acquisition) system, a wireless data system that monitors and transmits water tower info ,as well as other vital information to the main plant. The info is received at the treatment plant and displayed on a video monitor. Alarms can be configured for visual as well as audible warnings for the operator.

The response can be programmed according to the danger level to automatically trigger a chain of events or manual control of such.

I think this is a simple, cheap, and reliable way to create a warning system.

As I said, float switches are cheap and reliable with internal reed switches.

https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256808653076865.html?spm=a2g0o.detail.pcDetailTopMoreOtherSeller.12.2a4c5a4bFK7Evh&gps-id=pcDetailTopMoreOtherSeller&scm=1007.40196.439370.0&scm_id=1007.40196.439370.0&scm-url=1007.40196.439370.0&pvid=edae9663-4f93-4126-8afa-cb2b4f9408c5&_t=gps-id:pcDetailTopMoreOtherSeller,scm-url:1007.40196.439370.0,pvid:edae9663-4f93-4126-8afa-cb2b4f9408c5,tpp_buckets:668%232846%238114%231999&pdp_ext_f=%7B%22order%22%3A%224%22%2C%22eval%22%3A%221%22%2C%22sceneId%22%3A%2230050%22%7D&pdp_npi=4%40dis%21USD%212.87%212.15%21%21%212.87%212.15%21%402101c5a417520541696063239e1da8%2112000046902552600%21rec%21US%21%21ABXZ&utparam-url=scene%3ApcDetailTopMoreOtherSeller%7Cquery_from%3A

Detecting a flood is a trivial instrumentation problem.

Communicating the detection of flood conditions to those in danger is the first complicated problem. The communication logistics from remote sensors to communities and individuals can easily compound this complication. Interrupting people otherwise engaged (sleeping, partying, working, etc.) further compounds the communication problem.

The second complex problem is that evacuations take time. By definition, a flash flood happens very quickly. Early detection of a flash flood to allow time for evacuations is a misnomer. Early detections are predictions with probabilistic uncertainties. (Probability math is a complication, in and of itself.)

Early predictions generate the most vexing complications: false alarms and apathy.

The Nirvana Fallacy still applies here. Just because perfection is impossible, it doesn't mean improvements shouldn't happen. They should.

Agree with all you say.

I have an observation RE: Nirvana Fallacy. It seem as if people have (in this particular case, due to complacency, generational loss of experience, laziness, ignorance… whatever it may be) stopped doing what works (vigilance, awareness) while waiting for someone else to come up with an improvement.

The National Weather Service stated that they were adequately staffed for this flooding.

They just need to find out where the failure of the desths to happen.

This can be subjective, I believe that people just are not aware of what mother nature is capable of. In this case, how quickly flood waters can happen where its 12“ of water, and 5 minutes later its 60”.

I’m at the line right now, One thing that has changed, we were once taught in grade school on what to do in the event of an emergency or natural disasters. That pretty much has been displaced. I refrain from what it has been displaced with.

If you want to know why or why not anything is done, the answer is always the same :Money

I LIKE it!

Good find.

When anyone suppresses the Science of disasters, those in charge must respond to the "snake oil" misinformation by grasping in the dark. This causes innocent people and companies to get hurt.

Informatin is trickling out, and its not good. Its starting to look like power plays.

I hope ita minor, but considering that their own people he led was available to help, but was not sent voted a no confidence.

You can have all the warnings, supplied and resources available, it still comes down to leadership of their departments to carry it out.

When all was said and done, more was said than was done.

Warnings are applicable to the actual flood prone areas, ie NEAR THE RIVER. Warnings aren't necessary in the areas where the rain falls, unless they are NEAR THE RIVER.

The problem here doesn't seem to be any lack of knowledge that disaster was imminent, it was that the people in the danger zone NEAR THE RIVER didn't "get the message". To some extent that may have been because the message went out via "smart" phones, which may have been off or parked. It should also be noted that "smart" phones are an individual thing; each warning is targeted to an individual phone owner who may or may not 1) get the message or 2) respond appropriately. Blaring sirens NEAR THE RIVER, reaching all within earshot might better communicate the danger over "the last mile" better than smartphones. Reaching crowds may in such cases be more effective than reaching out to individuals.

There is also the question of responsibility; Having a single person in charge to make the decision (based on data) to fire off the sirens might be better than a series of decisions on the criticality of various stages of impending disaster and what to call them in what basically amounted to "press releases".

"YOU, ALL OF YOU! GET TO HIGH GROUND NOW! RUN NOW!"

It would also be a good idea to have safety drills to "program" the necessary behaviors in the people NEAR THE RIVER. "When you hear this, Do this."

"YOU, ALL OF YOU! GET TO HIGH GROUND NOW! RUN NOW!"

When I was in the nuclear fabrication/research industry, they had a "criticality alarm" which was a very loud horn. (They probably still do, but I'm not there.) When you heard this you were to RUN to the NEAREST exit, then keep running. I heard it once, and the shortest way was thru the women's restroom; several other guys were immediately behind me! (It turned out to not be a criticality, but some people transferring a highly radioactive source between lead pots.) The point was, which applies here too, "MOVE IT, NOW"

The horns for a nuclear plant can be heard for over 10 miles, and this is a relatively high frequency. A multiple frequency mix of lower/higher frequencies would travel further, I think.

I think a couple of these could cover a lot of area.

Still, it boils down to $$ vs lives.

Reference my post number 17.

General motors calculated the cost of a human life as $10,000

Here is a link:(https://www.commondreams.org/views/2014/04/02/price-human-life-according-gm)

Caution: Some language in the above link may be offensive to some people.

With the ’consensus’ saying there needs to be better warnings for evacuation. Thats a double edge sword.

If a dseaster actually hapoens, yes its great.

The other side of the sword, if the diseaster doesnt happen, then hell is raised.

Take for example the Mammoth Lake Volcano warning in 1982, where an eruption was imminate, vacuations took place but never happened. Local businesses was in a uproar because they lost a lot of revenue and the people (i refrain saying politics) in charge will not commit until Absolutely sure its going to happen.

Wow! I'm surprise that so many posts have been political and have been redacted!

I live in Texas, a couple hundred miles from Kerrville. I know people that were directly affected by the flood. A couple of people that work in the same building as my wife were vacationing there and were killed, along with their families.

Another friend's sister owns an RV camp by the river. They were awakened when the power went off and the AC went out. They were able to get out of their RV, but could not get their dogs out. They were able to warn others in the RV camp and all survived, but ever RV was destroyed and every building was destroyed.

Everyone I've talked to agrees that a siren-based warning system MUST be installed, regardless of the cost. Cell phone warnings simply won't work because coverage is spotty. Weather radios are a good idea, but it requires that people have them and keep the batteries charged. A siren system requires no action from the end user.

For those that say this is not a natural event--nonsense! Flooding occurs in the Texas Hill Country almost every year! Not as intense as this, but it's nothing new.

Update: There was an article in our local newspaper this morning about the community of Comfort, TX. They installed sirens in 2015, and they test them daily. There are different tones for flooding and tornadoes. A flood in Comfort in 1978 killed 33, of which 15 were residents. During the July 4th flood, water in the Guadalupe River rose 3 stories where it passes through Comfort. Everyone survived.

Kerr County and the City of Kerrville had previously looked at the installation of sirens but opted not to because the price tag was around $1 million. So far donations to assist with cleanup operations are about $100 million. It looks to me like that can easily afford a siren system now.

Great to have direct evidence that the siren warning system works. Thanks.

. A flood in Comfort in 1978 killed 33, of which 15 were residents.

That is what it would take to proactively do something about it unfortunately/fortunate for next time.

You can delete political comments till the cows come home.

The cold hard fact is that children were killed because POLITICIANS IN POWER failed to appropriate funds, that were available to protect their constituents!

The problem is political comments is the bias that on where its coming from. There appears to be a consensus, atleast on this topic.

The Main Roads in this neck of the woods have an automated system for flood prone roads in the state of QLD. The automated system is triggered by rising flood waters and the road advisory signs change from open, to caution, to closed, other signs show a green tick or a red cross. Flash floods can happen very quickly and make main roads dangerous.

Lesser roads just have cautionary signs advising to not attempt to cross flooded roads.

Sirens are not used and anyway how many sirens do you already have?

Here is an update from The Texas Tribune regarding upgrades to Camp Mystic.

https://www.texastribune.org/2026/04/24/texas-floods-camp-mystic-emergency-plan-deficiencies-license/

It's interesting to note what seems to be missing in that article. Were new requirements legislated for camp licenses? If there were new rules, then what are they, and how do they address last season's flood conditions? If there were no new rules, then how did Camp Mystic obtain a license for last season with an obviously deficient emergency plan?

The Camp Mystic application for operations license application is deficient or absent information to substantiate their compliance with Texas state regulations.

State regulations… in other words, minimum acceptable standards… MINIMUM acceptable standards. The Camp Mystic application indicates to my cynical and suspicious self that the camp administration does NOT intend to (or for one reason or another, is unable to) meet standards for this sort of summer camp established as MINIMUM ACCEPTABLE.

Yikes!

I find it difficult to believe Camp Mystic does not understand their 2026 application will be reviewed with a very large magnifying lens. Yet, this (blank and incomplete responses) is the process selected?

Yet, they claim “… Our priority remains the safety and well-being of our campers.”

Baloney. Balloon juice. WALOOB. That ol’ dog ain’t gonna hunt.

Some cold, hard, between-the-eyes facts: A contractor does not care about your house as much as you do. An auto repair shop doesn’t care about your car as much as you do. Your employees do not care about your business as much as you do. The state of Texas does not care about your kids as much as you do, and according to this article, Camp Mystic does not care enough about your kids to meet MINIMUM STANDARDS set forth by the great state of Texas.

Sad, sad, sad. We have met the enemy, and he is us.

Hyuk yuk yuk! Yep, there he is, the ‘possum what knows humans are often their own worst enemy.

I find another disjoint: The Camp Mystic website seems to be claiming their operating license for this season is in place, which is conflicting the implication of the news article.

Can be viewed at the bottom of this page:

https://campmystic.com/

So, who knows? Search the internet until you find a citation that you like and run with it.

Perhaps the musing of Pogo might be updated to “We have met the enemy and he is the rubbish internet content.”

Yeah it makes sense.sirens can wake people up fast and give them time to react

Story released today in The Texas Monthly.

https://www.texasmonthly.com/news-politics/camp-mystic-will-not-reopen-2026/

Whether Dick Eastland deserves all the blame or not, what better scapegoat than a dead man?

Agreed, there is no better scapegoat here.

Dogpiling is a 15 yard penalty in American Football.