Answer to everybody's energy needs

A self regulating mini reactor - Cool! (or should that be hot?) I'm sure there are many technical reasons why not, hopefully someone will tell us, as in theory it sounds great to me (except for the widespread use of Uranium!)

Yeah, there has to be a real good idea why this exceptionally bitchin' idea is the thoughts of a dunderhead.

Oh I know: everybody is running out to patent it.

Damn, another fortune I passed up..

Bitchin idea is about right. billions of people on earthand enough platinum for about 1000000 of them to get 5000 watts per day. U235,cost????

This must be about$10000 a watt hour

did you do ANY math?

milo

Friend of mine, a Nuclear engineer explained the fuel rods are pellets of U235 and a high expansion metal for just that use. Sorry I don't remember what the metal was but it was picked for its rate of expansion.

We were discussing fluid bed reactors at the time with the fuel in carbon balls cycled threw the reactor. Just for an idea of how long ago that was.

Brad

Another problem is the fact that the fuel rod metal is changed by the radiation that passes through it. Nuetron absorbtion, if I recall right. So the fuel rods have to be scrapped as contaminated waste also, it is not economically feasible to recycle that I am aware of.

For some reason I think the cotrol rod material is Cadmium.

Not 100% but it sounds right.

This sounds somewhat like the nuclear batteries the USSR made during the 60's and 70's. Put a hot isotope in a small box and you have enough power to supply a village with electric power.

Unfortunately, every time they find one of these bad boys abandoned, they have to bring in about a hundred workers to get it into a containment box... A whistle blows, the worker runs forward, does what he can to move the battery closer to the containment vessel, the whistle blows again, and the worker leaves it for the next guy. In 30 seconds, the worker has received a lifetime dose of radiation.

I think that the main reason it was never done is people are afraid of it. No one wants to glow, as for being in a car you drive around a corner and there are 2 or more cars in parts from an accident, you go on home and later you find out your glowing. That at least is what has be sugested to me as I had the same ideal when I was 20 something, not that anyone would listen to my ideals then.

But maybe you have and ideal on how to keep the radiation inside and not let it out no mater what happens say maybe a plane falls out of the sky and land on your car or what ever.

Good luck keep on thinking you may yet be the one the world may look to in the future.

I know a guy that, as a teenage, was allowed into Lawrence Livermore labs. Back then, they used to play fast and loose with this stuff. It was nothing to grab a Geiger counter, open some drum, and watch the meter peg. As a result, this guy got a really nasty case of cancer and the only way they could imagine saving him was to remove all of his lymph nodes. Now he has to be careful about catching a cold.

Today, they're finding that any person that had a CT scan has a 2% greater risk of developing cancer. They tested this against the population of Japan that where ten miles from ground zero at Hiroshima. They received the same dose, and that population is showing a 2% higher risk, as well.

This is not superstition. This is hard fact. 60 years later, they know the dosages, they know the numbers, and they know what they mean. As taxpayers we paid for every bit of this info!

I was at Sandia and Lawrence in the 80's. Maybe I am that guy?

I did work in the Plutonium Lab for 6 months, but fortunately nothing glows...

This was like in the early to late 60's... One weird story I heard from this guy, was that he was working as a flunky for some scientist that was treating seeds with radiation. One day, he was called in to help pull out this huge, deformed radish plant that had grown almost overnight. Seems they clipped a very important gene!!!

Not so weird I think...

Six months after I left the Plutonium lab, they arrested two scientists for growing pot in one of their containment boxes.

LLNL was run by UC Berkeley, go figure...

The movie "Up in Smoke" with Cheech and Chong was filmed within a few blocks of where I lived as a kid.

Ya know, I have to say that the reason why we don't do stuff like this is because of the real hazard in messing with this crap. The American public (and I'm sure citizens in other countries) have forgotten how lethal this stuff really is.

I saw an older film several months ago about a swimming pool reactor. A woman is using robotic arms to manipulate things within the pool. At one side, there is a pile of cesium isotope billets. The narrator said "Interesting to note that if the woman were to grab one of these billets and bring it up, she would be dead before it broke the surface of the pool."

In the future, nuclear reactors may be the solution to global warming, but we're still going to need a Yucca Mountain and pay a very high price for dealing with the waste in many forms.

RIGHT ON MATE

cheers

RF_Guy

Working in nucleonics in the 80's and 90's on detection instrument systems for a company big into that sort of thing in western europe we noted that the 'baseline' radation level after Chernobyl was raised with big spikes for strontium and cesium in particular.This meant I stopped eating lamb for 10 years ( spring lamb in mountainious areas eat new grass that take up cesium fall out readily due to poor soils and concentrate them in their tissues-ie lamb chops).I know the further east you travel acrosss the EU to Ukraine / Bellorus the worse it gets.Its still there.Nuclear power is double edged , huge potiental to resolve carbon emission /energy issues but thats no good if we replace them with careless fall out.

"we're still going to need a Yucca Mountain and pay a very high price for dealing with the waste in many forms."

That's the crux of the problem! We know we have to deal with the waste and everyone agrees, but they still insist "not in my backyard!"

Here's the major problem as far as I see it... Some of this waste dies off within several years, other components take several hundred years, and still other parts take hundreds of thousands of years to cool off.

That being said, the Earth is a very dynamic place. Are you sure you want to guard and keep track of this stuff, and keep it from leaking into the environment for, at the very least, several thousand years?

I'm not saying this make the whole thing wrong. I'm just saying these are the type of decisions we collectively need to make.

And above all we MUST avoid dihydrogen monoxide!

Few people realise that the difference between Three Mile Island and Chernoybol was about 10 hours..............

I assumed we got close to being the same as Chernoybol but NEVER realized we came that close.

Makes you wonder what would have happened here in the good old USA if 3 mile would have gone another 10 hrs.

I remember a while back a web photo shoot & blog of someone who rode a motorcycle through the Chernoybol area. They were not able to leave the main road for more than a few yards due to radiation levels. But it was still a great eye opener.

Makes you wonder what would have happened here in the good old USA if 3 mile would have gone another 10 hrs.

The difference between 3 mile and Chernoybol is that 3 mile was made in the USA. It was designed with sufficient safety systems to avoid a Chernoybol. As I recall, the Chernoybol reactor was pretty much an open reactor in a wharehouse. 3 mile was in a full containment building (able to withstand a direct hit from a 747) with multiple safety systems and backups - that worked!

Chernobyl was caused by the practices of poorly trained technicians.

They were doing tests and didn't follow procedures correctly.

It wasn't due to reactor design but operator error.

Fortunately the Chernobyl incident did not pass without taking notice to some major lessons learned.

Now any nuclear power plant built requires the approval and is inspected by several different countries.

The rules for operating and maintaining a nuclear power plant has been written and adopted by almost all countries that utilize nuclear power.

It's one of the first successful joint efforts between the United States and USSR prior to the Wall coming down.

Now there are about 35 countries that are involved in safety of nuclear power that work together to ensure Chernobyl doesn't happen again.

It's the general population's fears that are stalling the growth of the use of nuclear power.

Actually, Chernobyl went down like this... There was a fairly massive steam release/explosion, which came into contact with Zirconium, When steam comes into contact with zirconium, it changes to hydrogen and oxygen. The explosion was a hydrogen/oxygen explosion. There are still several of these "carbon block" reactors operating in the east. I believe there is one in Lithuania, and I think there's another in Estonia.

However, reactor failures are not the only dangers associated with this technology. Does anyone remember the incident in Japan, where they were recycling U235 in a crucible full of nitric acid? One poorly trained operator put too much fuel in the crucible and started a minor chain reaction. It was kept rather quiet, but several plant workers lost their lives to correct the situation. An innocent by stander was a gardener about 1/2 a mile away. He died, as well.

Do not fool yourselves. This is an industry that's fraught with peril throughout the entire cycle of processes!

Yes, you're right. I don't want anyone to think that accidents can't happen. There is always the human element that is always present.

I gave a safety training meeting a few months ago about the wearing of safety protection.

I related a story I came across about some guy, who worked for an oil company, that didn't take safety meetings seriously and certainly didn't take wearing his safety gear or appropriate clothes.

He just came on duty for a night shift and got settled in when he got a trouble call concerning a valve somewhere. He was wearing his coveralls with the sleeves torn off, he wasn't wearing his safety eye wear and arrived at the site and didn't shut the engine off on his truck. A big surge erupted from the valve while he was looking it over. Some fuel got into his eyes, temporarily blinding him, when he got is vision back he saw a cloud of flammable vapor drifting towards his still running truck.

An explosion occurred that disabled him for a few years.

It also caused an increase in your gas prices.

So no matter what it is, you are always going to come across clowns in every organization.

About the Nuclear power industry. Even though there are some dinosaur nuclear power plants still in operation, they've been updated to better meet safety. Both of those countries that you mentioned were affected by Chernobyl and are both part of the Organization for Nuclear power safety.

They can't eliminate all the clowns but they can keep tighter restrictions to limit the clowns as much as possible.

That steam explosion was caused by poorly trained personnel conducting unscheduled tests. It wasn't caused by mechanical failure, it was caused by human error.

...and three Mile Island melt down, was partially prevented by "The Human Factor", when the humans who cleared the in takes of trees and spring run off debrie, at great personal and financial expense; cleared the water inlets, so the reactor could be cooled in time. But they don't count, do they... They wore SHORT sleeved dive suites!

...unless you were there to see what happened, sir; I would re-think the story.

I suggest you work in long sleeves, wearing full fire prevention clothing and safety gear, through an entire summer in the oil fields, before you condemn the person who had one bad day on the job, in short sleeves. Albeit a very bad day, at that. What more would you do to him? Maybe there's more to the "story"???

Maybe, we can see past the poor performance of one person's mistake and look towards mutual respect, and a preventative solution; instead of cancerous accusations, after the fact?

If every false story, my family faced was true; 200 years of roads, schools and high rises would not exists. Did you ever think the engineer who made the mistake and lived to tell the tale may have shifted the story, to save his job??? It is a "story"; isn't it? Were you there to see it?

The flavor of this discussion seems to be slanted towards those who have never made mistakes... or wish humans were not involved, whatsoever the theory...

I cannot see which is worse.

Here, this flowchart might help...

As I see it, here's the problem with your forgiving viewpoint... When a mistake is made at these highly toxic facilities, it has the potential of killing thousands if not hundreds of thousands. This does not have to be exclusively nuclear, either. As in another post on this thread, I ask please do not forget Bhopal India.

The man in my story tore the sleeves from long sleeved coveralls.

I know the full story I have a copy of the article that the man in question wrote himself to warn people about the importance of taking safety seriously. In his story he stated that he used to wear sunglasses to safety meeting so people couldn't tell if he was sleeping or not. He also explained that there was another person that always followed safety rules, wore all his PPE and paid attention at the meetings.

The man in the story explained that his mistake not only affected him but it affected everyone around him in someway:

- His work associates because they had to pick up the slack for him during his recovery.

-His family because they had to pick up the slack for him at home.

He also explained that even though people were sympathetic towards him on the outside, he knew on the inside they were resentful of him because his injuries were caused by his own mistakes.

He had suffered burns everywhere that wasn't protected by clothing and for three years he had to go through therapy to remove scars caused by the burns that were limiting the use of his body.

The point I'm making is that those people having to clean up the mess afterwards, wouldn't be there having to do it, if the human error on the front end of the ordeal had been minimized or avoided.

All the mistakes that man made in my story had established Standard Operating Procedures in place that he chose to not follow because he felt he was cool for not following them.

That man wrote that story and proclaimed that he was stupid for allowing that to happen, he wanted everyone to be aware that he was no hero by any means, that he wanted to make sure people, no matter what their working environment, observed safety.

The point that I am making is that since Chernobyl there has been an organization established that has standardized Nuclear Power Plant operations and this organization has the membership of over 35 countries that utilize Nuclear Power. The United States and the Soviet Union were the ones that created this organization and are the first members.

You can be assured that the procedures followed in a Nuclear Power plant in the United States are the same as those being followed anywhere else in the world.

Those procedures weren't established by the United States and everyone else just adopted them. They were established by meetings and team effort between Nuclear Power professionals throughout the world coming to mutual agreement about the proper operation for a Nuclear Power Plant.

Understand that I am a Safety Professional.

I don't see where you make the connection between wearing PPE in a constant fire hazard area, to wearing short sleeve diving suits.

I also work in Quality Control.

I think my signature plays a part in both cases.

People try to cut corners to save time. This savings in time often sacrifices in safety and quality. Most of the time it leads to rework or someone getting hurt or something getting broken.

There are three things that attribute to things going wrong:

The system is faulty - Applies to management.

The process is faulty - Applies to process or Standard Operating Procedures if there isn't an SOP then we go back to the system.

The Employee needs more training but the employee is never wrong - This is stating that employees want to do a good job, they are motivated to get raises and be recognized as a good employee.

In the Chernobyl incident the employees needed more training. That is stated in the reports on the Chernobyl accident. The accident occurred because they were conducting unscheduled tests by poorly trained personnel.

The man in my story was a long time employee and took procedures for granted. The human error factor.

And don't forget Bhopal!!!

As far as human error is concerned, there really is no limit... I "think" there is only one of four nuclear reactors currently running in California - these are all truly state-of-the-art installations. I think one got too costly to run while another was discovered to have been built right on top of an active fault. Yet at another, several years into construction, it was discovered that the second half of the blueprints were accidentally replaced with a mirror image of the first half of the blueprints!

Stuff happens! Curious, little monkeys can make a mistake with a loaded gun, and other curious, little monkeys can make a mistake with a nuclear device. Which one would you choose.

One more thing... After Chernobyl, I plotted the "You can never use this land for agriculture again." region on top of a map of California, using Rancho Seco as ground-zero. The plotted circle extended over both the Central and the Imperial Valleys. Considering California would be the eighth richest country in the world if it was a separate country, imagine the economic impact this would have on the entire United States! Why risk the entire economy of the US for a few extra MegaWatts?

Another factor in the Chernobyl accident that also contributed to the human error factor is that the Soviet government tried to cover up the accident by first not announcing that they were having a nuclear crisis until it was observed by other countries that there was a great deal of radiation being admitted into the atmosphere.

Then after the Soviet government realized that it couldn't be kept under wraps anymore, declined assistance from the United States along with anyone else that offered assistance, claiming that they had everything under control.

That spot is still hot. They only covered it with sand and built a copper shell around it.

The areas surround that location is uninhabitable. The country is gradually discontinuing payment to people still living in contaminated areas by proclaim their zones as safe.

They tried removing contaminated dirt and bringing in clean dirt for farming communities but eventually the clean dirt became contaminated as well.

The guys who cleaned out the clogged fresh water intake, in the river, knew. They also knew how cold water freezes your limbs while running underwater chainsaws in freezing waters.

While we're on the subject, I'd like to pose this question: Is the heat generated by nuclear waste used to generate more electricity? From what I understand, nuclear waste has to be cooled. Why not use this heat to generate more electricity. It seems at some point, the energy from the waste would replace the nuclear power plants.

I may be out in left field here. Let me know if I am...

In it's most developed state, you're talking about a "breeder reactor." In it's worst state, you're talking about the nuclear batteries created by the Soviet Union.

Also, remember that a reactor isn't like a fire in your hearth. You can't just reach in and move things around to make it burn better. Everything has a procedure and calculations associated with it.

A friend used to make these coupled with a thermal pile for government and space craft use.

Not a very good civilian toy, I am sorry to say.

I agree.

"Neutron absorption" by palladium and manganese would make what?

Recall that "I do not know enough about this field to stop myself.."

makes one wonder when thinking about "free energy devices" such as Townsend Brown & Tesla promoted- Brown tickled "swedish stone" to obtain power to run electric devices in conjunction with an antenna & a earth- Tesla reportedly had a box in his car , that after tickling, supplied power to run an electric motor powering the car at up to 90mph- Brown blamed lack of supply of swedish stone (&consistency) as why the tickling was inconsistent in results- who knows?. I personally feel that as with many things & events, a story is repeated by writers over many years, all taking what someone else has written as gospel, & embellishing it etc.

There is so much electromagnetic smog out there from radio stations, you can build a simple, little circuit using a germanium diode and a couple of capacitors that will convert a lot of these frequencies to a DC voltage. This circuit can be used for running small, low-power devices!

Also, does anybody still make those cute, little crystal radios that only need to be clipped to something metallic, and you can hear AM stations through a small ear phone?

Is this what we are discussing... redundancy over-rides and costly eco-safety?

http://www.app.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071222/NEWS/712220355

Good thing it's just a few fish.