Diesel generator capable to work upside down

Hmmm. don't think you will find one..can you mount one on a couple of gimbals in a cage of steel tube?

as a last chance it can be done like this but its too complicated for my application - maybe somebody upgrades diesel engines with forced lubrication and cooling

Just what is your application?

Perhaps there are other types of generator that might solve your problem, for instance an aircraft type turbo-generator which has forced lubrication and fuel feed?

Jack Jersawitz

some kind of crawler - a long range autonomous vehicle with no external supply of power - needs up to 3kwt continuously for 48 hours. there might be an option of using ancient steam engine with modern steam generator connected to electric power generator... but compact diesel should be much better as its smaller and lightweight

Suggest a diesel electric hybrid drive. Diesel engine should be equipped with a dry sump. This effectively allows extreme angle operation. Did you really meant to say operation required for 48 hours continuously in upside down orieintation?

3kwt means what? continous power output of 3000 watts or 3 kilowatt hours total consumption? Big difference. You said crawler. As in caterpillar crawler for heavy construction or as in Mars rover or lunar lander. Yes i realize that by definition it must be terrestial since you specified an air breather engine but you didn't indicate size or mission parameters. That also has a bearing on engine type..

With a diesel electric hybrid drive you can use a tilt switch ( plus timer) to shut down the diesel if upside down orientation last too long and simply drive on electric motor plus batteries while it self rights. Pretty much like hybrid cars run right now. Forget steam. Mostly its far more gravity dependent.

There were some experiments done with diesel powered air planes in the early part of the last century. By now there has been enough engine development to produce a gravity independent diesel engine. 3kW diesels are not common in 2 cycle designs. Almost all of them are 4 cycle to meet EPA emission specs. The only 2 cycle engines that were sucessfully in production are Fairbanks Morse and Detroits. Neither ar e suitable for your application. too big and unwieldy. Fairbanks -Morse has half the cylinders upside down with the crankshaft in the middle between the two cylinder banks. But the engine weighs many tons and stands 10 feet high. Most small industrial diesels now in production are pressure lubricated thus making it easier to modify for a dry sump.

Good luck!

Hello Guest,

Does it absolutely have to be a diesel engine? If so, then forced lubrication would, of course, be essential. However, if your application could support a gasoline engine then think about this one:

Could you perhaps consider a large 2-cycle engine such as, for example, a 750 cc Kawasaki motorcycle engine? I have not previously considered anything like this but it does seem to have some merit. 2-cycle engines are unique in that they could care less how they are gravitationally oriented (lubrication wise). What you would have to do to make it suit your application is to throw away the "normal" float type carburetors and replace them with diaphragm carburetors. Diaphragm carbs can work at any orientation (commonly used on outdoor power equipment such as string trimmers, etc.). The problem will be to find a large enough diaphragm carb that will adapt to a large 2-cycle motorcycle engine.

Of course you'll have to consider cooling, etc., etc. but seems to me like a 2-cycle engine is your best bet for running inverted, etc.

Regards,

-John

Not sure if this will help, try Google Diesel gas turbines, not sure if a turbine will fit the bill or if you can get the right size?

Regards JD.

Aircraft and some cars have drysump oil pans. You might check on their design and determine if your diesel's pan can be so modified. Of course you may have to invert some filters.

Aircraft and some cars have drysump oil pans. You might check on their design and determine if your diesel's pan can be so modified. Of course you may have to invert some filters.

Google "Thielert Diesel" for one source of aircraft engines. They began with a Mercedes-Benz engine, and revised it for this purpose; there are hundreds flying, possibly thousands now, and they are standard equipment on several factory aircraft, suggesting that the reliability, lifetime, and fuel-consumption are all favorable over gasoline. Now, I do NOT know if they are set up for inverted flight, but that is commonly handled by the flop-tube pickup and dry-sump conversions already mentioned by several other posters.

What about a rotary engine. Might pay to look around and see what's available.

Go to

http://www.picotech.com/applications/gas-turbines.html

These things go on all sorts of planes. Fed with gas they will run in any position. They are equipped with all sorts of generators. I would bet you could attach a gear box and drive directly from the turbine.

It is of course rotary and turns at god awful RPM. These are the thingies supplying power to aircraft while sitting or supply power and air to start large jet turbines.

Jack Jersawitz

Second paragraph mentions a limitation: Gas turbines operate most efficiently under a constant load and a gas turbine will use more fuel that a reciprocating engine during idle, or if the load fluctuates."

Somehow I do not think a crawler is th ebest application for a turbine. It would have to carry a lot more fuel (weight) which in turn also increases power required to accomplish mission. By definition a crawler is going to enclunter rough terrain and thus the load will vary.

Look at a chainsaw. It is made to operate in any position but it runs on gasoline. Nothing is perfect...

Yes i can if you can confirm you can work upside down to carry out maintenance.

I can device a rolling drum with gear-wheels and the diesel generator mounted inside the drum with you/anybody strapped to the seat. The drum will have wheels and will be rotating at 1mph up and down any hill with the strapped passenger and itself.

Does this solve your problem.

Please disregard this. I apologise for I never thought it'd become a serious discussion. I'm

ducon, looking at recent threads, I don't think that you really need to apologise, it seems almost compulsory that someone starts the "rot."

At least we know engineers have a sense of humour...........and I think that is something one has to have after listening to the news everyday.

Thanks but after reading Enlav & Dragonfly. As the saying goes, "Even a fool listens before clapping". I surpassed that so it was alright for me to apologise.Txs.

I know that there are diesel engines currently available that will run at any angle of incidence. The US Coast Guard and Search and Rescue operators have been using them in motor life boats for decades. I am not sure how long they will operate in an inverted postion, but these boats have to be able to with stand a 360° roll. I also know of one case in which the vessel rotated end for end and came up running though seriously structurally damaged. The engines in current use by the USCG in their MLB's are manufactured by Detroit Diesel, but I am sure that other manufacturers also offer this technology. I suggest that you contact the major players in the diesel engine manufacturing business and I m sure that you will find an engine to meet your requirements.

Dragonfly, I have worked on these boats and while they are designed to withstand a roll-over; the engines are not designed to keep running for any lenght of time in that condition. There is a time delay because you do not want the engines to shut off as soon as the boat rolls to an extreme angle. If the boat rolled and remained inverted for any period more than a second or two the engine will stop. Too many systems are dependent on gravity; starting with the fuel pick-ups in the bottom of the tank. With the boat in inverted position the fuel pick-up sucks air.

Chain saws and weed eaters by comparison has a floppy pickup tube with a weight so the pickup tube tends to find the lowest spot as defined by gravity pull. This works for short durations. Most diesel fuel systems are not designed that way. Gasoline motors of the smaller type have diaphram style caburetors. This eliminates the float arrangement that is gravity dependent. Fuel injected systems have a positive pressure throughout and are thus immune. But maintain the inverted position long enough to allow air to enter the fuel pickup line and the engine stops.

elnav,

You said "Gasoline motors of the smaller type have diaphram style caburetors. This eliminates the float arrangement that is gravity dependent"

I believe I said that already in post #7.

-John

Mea culpa!! my apologies!

No prob my friend. Your explanation was probably better anyway.

-John