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Why it Doesn't Seem to Work... For Us.

03/17/2008 11:58 PM

If you're interested in physics, I strongly suggest that you read the following two-page article, which appeared in New Scientist, January 5-11. This article should answer the question - "Why is quantum physics so damn hard to understand (for Jorrie and myself included)?!"

TRAPPED IN A WORLD VIEW

IT HASN'T been a great couple of years for theoretical physics. Books such as Lee Smolin's The Trouble with Physics and Peter Woit's Not Even Wrong embody the frustration felt across the field that string theory, the brightest hope for formulating a theory that would explain the universe in one beautiful equation, has been getting nowhere. It's quite a comedown from the late 1980s and 1990s, when a grand unified theory seemed just around the corner and physicists believed they would soon, to use Stephen Hawking's words, "know the mind of God". New Scientist even ran an article called "The end of physics".

So what went wrong? Why are physicists finding it so hard to make that final step? I believe part of the answer was hinted at by the great physicist Niels Bohr, when he wrote: "It is wrong to think that the task of physics is to find out about nature. Physics concerns what we can say about nature."

At first sight that seems strange. What has language got to do with it? After all, we see physics as about solving equations relating to facts about the world - predicting a comet's path, or working out how fast heat flows along an iron bar. The language we choose to convey question or answer is not supposed to fundamentally affect the nature of the result.

Nonetheless, that assumption started to unravel one night in the spring of 1925, when the young Werner Heisenberg worked out the basic equations of what became known as quantum mechanics. One of the immediate consequences of these equations was that they did not permit us to know with total accuracy both the position and the velocity of an electron: there would always be a degree of irreducible uncertainty in these two values.

Heisenberg needed an explanation for this. He reasoned thus: suppose a very delicate (hypothetical) microscope is used to observe the electron, one so refined that it uses only a single photon of energy to make its measurement. First it measures the electron's position, then it uses a second photon to measure the speed, or velocity. But in making this latter observation, the second photon has imparted a little kick to the electron and in the process has shifted its position. Try to measure the position again and we disturb the velocity. Uncertainty arises, Heisenberg argued, because every time we observe the universe we disturb its intrinsic properties.

However, when Heisenberg showed his results to Bohr, his mentor, he had the ground cut from under his feet. Bohr argued that Heisenberg had made the unwarranted assumption that an electron is like a billiard ball in that it has a "position" and possesses a "speed". These are classical notions, said Bohr, and do not make sense at the quantum level. The electron does not necessarily have an intrinsic position or speed, or even a particular path. Rather, when we try to make measurements, quantum nature replies in a way we interpret using these familiar concepts.

This is where language comes in. While Heisenberg argued that "the meaning of quantum theory is in the equations", Bohr pointed out that physicists still have to stand around the blackboard and discuss them in German, French or English. Whatever the language, it contains deep assumptions about space, time and causality - assumptions that do not apply to the quantum world. Hence, wrote Bohr, "we are suspended in language such that we don't know what is up and what is down". Trying to talk about quantum reality generates only confusion and paradox.

Unfortunately Bohr's arguments are often put aside today as some physicists discuss ever more elaborate mathematics, believing their theories to truly reflect subatomic reality. I remember a conversation with string theorist Michael Green a few years after he and John Schwartz published a paper in 1984 that was instrumental in making string theory mainstream. Green remarked that when Einstein was formulating the theory of relativity he had thought deeply about the philosophical problems involved, such as the nature of the categories of space and time. Many of the great physicists of Einstein's generation read deeply in philosophy.

In contrast, Green felt, string theorists had come up with a mathematical formulation that did not have the same deep underpinning and philosophical inevitability. Although superstrings were for a time an exciting new approach, they did not break conceptual boundaries in the way that the findings of Bohr, Heisenberg and Einstein had done.

The American quantum theorist David Bohm embraced Bohr's views on language, believing that at the root of Green's problem is the structure of the languages we speak. European languages, he noted, perfectly mirror the classical world of Newtonian physics. When we say "the cat chases the mouse" we are dealing with well-defined objects (nouns), which are connected via verbs. Likewise, classical physics deals with objects that are well located in space and time, which interact via forces and fields. But if the world doesn't work the way our language does, advances are inevitably hindered.

Bohm pointed out that quantum effects are much more process-based, so to describe them accurately requires a process-based language rich in verbs, and in which nouns play only a secondary role. In the last year of his life, Bohm and some like-minded physicists, including myself, met a number of native American elders of the Blackfoot, Micmac and Ojibwa tribes - all speakers of the Algonquian family of languages. These languages have a wide variety of verb forms, while they lack the notion of dividing the world into categories of objects, such as "fish", "trees" or "birds".

Take, for example, the phrase in the Montagnais language, Hipiskapigoka iagusit. In a 1729 dictionary, this was translated as "the magician/sorceror sings a sick man". According to Alan Ford, an expert in the Algonquian languages at the University of Montreal, Canada, this deeply distorts the nature of the thinking processes of the Montagnais people, for the translator had tried to transform a verb-based concept into a European language dominated by nouns and object categories. Rather than there being a medicine person who is doing something to a sick patient, there is an activity of singing, a process. In this world view, songs are alive, singing is going on, and within the process is a medicine person and a sick man.

The world view of Algonquian speakers is of flux and change, of objects emerging and folding back into the flux of the world. There is not the same sense of fixed identity - even a person's name will change during their life. They believe that objects will vanish into this flux unless renewed by periodic rituals or the pipe smoked at sunrise in the sun dance ceremony of the Lakota and Blackfoot.

In a discussion circle with the elders, we were deeply struck by the way their thinking seemed in harmony with the reality quantum theory was revealing to us. In the early decades of the 20th century, the emphasis was on elementary particles, but the focus later shifted towards the notion of fundamental symmetries and symmetry breaking. Bohm himself viewed the particles as closer to processes than objects. While the elders did not of course possess the mathematics to enter into a discussion of quantum theory, it was clear their notions of process, and of the relative nature of space and time, were close to some of the insights of theoretical physics.

Physics as we know it is about equations and quantitative measurement. But what these numbers and symbols really mean is a different, more subtle matter. In interpreting the equations we must remember the limitations language places on how we can think about the world. The study of other types of languages opens us up to other world views, to complementary ways of speaking about the cosmos. Being open that way might give physics the inspiration to leap forward.

From issue 2637 of New Scientist magazine, 05 January 2008, page 42-43

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#1

Re: Why it Doesn't Seem to Work... For Us.

03/18/2008 1:34 AM

In a way, that makes me think of Orwell's 1984 : 'Newspeak' is used to reduce vocabulary and make it impossible to put certain thoughts into written or spoken form. Arguably, the nature of human consciousness is such that we've always been limited in our ability to express the 'nature of nature'. An episode of Star Trek has an episode with an alien species that only communicates in allegory. Another more realistic example was shown in the film Windtalkers : Navajo speakers were used to communicate military information in WW11 because the language was almost impenetrable to non speakers. Having no words for modern technology, they used metaphor/analogy for such things as 'Tank'.

A goldfish will never understand the world outside it's bowl, so maybe we will never be able to understand the universe. Unfortunately our nature impels us to try. Whatever 'God' is, it has a sense of humour.

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#2

Re: Why it Doesn't Seem to Work... For Us.

03/18/2008 4:45 AM

Reminds me of a radio programme I was listening too one day about the Canadian Eskimo language and the richness of there language when it come to describing the different structures of snow (nature), as we have only a few words I believe they have hundreds, that describes all kinds of possibilities. So, I think that necessity being the mother of invention, if there is not a word for some concept, I'm quite sure that the person involved will come up with one. Quiz I believe has a unique history or should I say beginning.

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#3
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Re: Why it Doesn't Seem to Work... For Us.

03/18/2008 5:55 AM

The snow thing is an urban myth apparently.

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Re: Why it Doesn't Seem to Work... For Us.

03/18/2008 7:26 AM

Thank you Kris, we learn something new each day. But I do like to think that the conceptual ability of some people transcends words.

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#5
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Re: Why it Doesn't Seem to Work... For Us.

03/18/2008 8:41 AM

I think you're right. People row all the time because emotions don't fully translate to words. I see no reason to think we have the linguistic ability to formulate an expression of natural phenomena. The brain has a finite size, even if (as oft said) we only use a fraction of it's potential. Even defining an individual word usually comes down to referrencing other words, so we spin on our tails until a primal scream emerges.

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#7
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Re: Why it Doesn't Seem to Work... For Us.

03/19/2008 1:48 AM

Ya know, no one has been able to determine whether the character in the painting is screaming or is hold their ears to block the hearing of a terrible scream.

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#9
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03/19/2008 2:47 AM

I go with the blocking out sound idea, except there's no sound, just a deathly silent horror of realizing something. The character can't even scream as the crushing reality becomes evident. A bit like the last second before you hit the ground after jumping from a tall building. Your every notion of 'being' is about to become nought, like a charged particle in the LHC seeing a black hole. Blimey, I feel like I'm there already !

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#12
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Re: Why it Doesn't Seem to Work... For Us.

03/19/2008 1:34 PM

To the character in the picture, there is sound... However, in oil paint, no one can hear you scream!

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03/19/2008 1:47 PM

...Especially if you're gagged with duct-tape first.

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#10
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03/19/2008 3:17 AM

Hi VvVvVvVv

Having to wake up to reality after coming back from the 6th dimension.

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#15
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Re: Why it Doesn't Seem to Work... For Us.

03/19/2008 7:20 PM

Why urban, it falls in the country as well?

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#21
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Re: Why it Doesn't Seem to Work... For Us.

03/20/2008 3:10 AM

That's a good point. In the snow example, the only justification for 'urban' myth I can think of is that few Inuit inhabit urban dwellings. Maybe they walk around the arctic talking about all our words for smog !

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#6

Re: Why it Doesn't Seem to Work... For Us.

03/19/2008 1:43 AM

Thank you Vermin.

I like to read that kind of article (enjoying it), even though I understand very little (close to zero) about physics.

Mishka

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Re: Why it Doesn't Seem to Work... For Us.

03/19/2008 1:52 AM

You're welcome!

I think the point here is to understand that quantum physics lies somewhere on the boundries of the human mind, and while we use it everyday, we don't really understand it! Woof!!!

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#11

Re: Why it Doesn't Seem to Work... For Us.

03/19/2008 11:45 AM

Hello Vermin,

Do you read much philosophy? I have always viewed physics and philosophy as very much intertwined. I also think that it is possible to understand without being able to communicate that understanding.

Fascinating article. Thanks for posting it. I will continue to digest for a while

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#14

Re: Why it Doesn't Seem to Work... For Us.

03/19/2008 4:59 PM

I find that many people who undertand quantum physics in its state today often lack the abillity to communicate what they know in a way younger generations can grasp and thus build upon. Its easy to say 1+1=2. Its much much harder to explain why 1+1=2 with an answer better then "It just does." That example may seem simplistic, but I think you may see where Im going. If physics was taught and learned perhaps from a historical perspective, rather then based on learning things based on increasing complexity, we would understand the "why" alot better. If you dont understand the "why", everything is just meaningless mathematical tricks. And without understanding the "why" you'll never make the leaps of intuition needed for a breakthrough.

I also often wonder why nobody asks the question "What if our way of thinking is fundementally flawed?" We have a system of numbers and variables and equations...but what if the universe doesnt work so well in numbers 0-9? Consider that for centuries classical physics worked well for the scope of the universe man was able to understand. Then, in the late 19th and early 20th century we found it sort of fell apart when it came to things on the atomic level. So, we invented quantum physics. Now we find we cannot find the answers we're looking for on a universal scale - could it be classical and quantum physics fall apart here? Instead of trying to define the universe in our current terms, perhaps we should be looking for the new physics revolution that quantum physics was so many years ago. Perhaps new language needs to be created for this, as well as new mathematics (maybe algebra, trig and calculus as we know it just wont work, who knows?). It would be nice if the rules didn't change when you were talking about both atomic and universal structures, we could wrap everything up in a neat little package that would be grand unified theory. But, what of the rules DO change and there is no mechanism for how the rules change with the scale? Is it naieve to assume chaos does not permeate all aspects of the universe? I just dont know...

Avery Montembeault

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#16
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03/19/2008 7:40 PM

I also often wonder why nobody asks the question "What if our way of thinking is fundementally flawed?" Richard Dawkins looks at this issue repeatedly as out brains haven't evolved to worry about geological time periods or astronomical distances. A lion at 17 light years or the risk of a glacier in a few hundred millennia can be safely ignored, and you will produce descendants who have been bred to ignore such things. (Sorry R. Dawkins but you evolved to be quoted by idiots). The original article, "Trapped in a World View," was fascinating and I will be going back to it to see if language explains the Native American horse skills. (It could just be they are better horsemen than me) The idea of looking at processes, not parts, makes total sense in horse training, and possibly in all education. A frightening thought.

And I do not consider this answer off topic, although it may appear that way. Please read it first and if you can show me it is off topic I will label it that way myself.

Simon (getting on his (off topic) high horse)

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#18
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Re: Why it Doesn't Seem to Work... For Us.

03/19/2008 11:03 PM

I don't think anything in this thread is off topic (sorry Kris), because this is a comment thread. I put the article out there for anyone to gain what they may.

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#22
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Re: Why it Doesn't Seem to Work... For Us.

03/20/2008 3:25 AM

I ignore the fact that some posts may be posted/marked off-topic. That's just someones opinion and I may not agree, so I read them all. You paragraph #2 in post #19 pretty much sums up my view (as per #1). My only other thought at present is that we can use language without full understanding. I might chuck 'i' through a formula to get a meaningful result, but have no grasp of it's essential meaning. 'i' as a transitional tool is not exactly the same as applying a formula that isn't in itself understood (?). Like I said somewhere, words get defined with other words, so we ride a rickety bicycle of understanding.

Dang, coffee craving is setting in. Back later.......

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#23
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03/20/2008 3:49 AM

A "rickety bicycle?!" More like a "rickety unicycle!"

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#24
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03/20/2008 5:40 AM

...or maybe a tandem with two sets of handlebars.

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#19
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Re: Why it Doesn't Seem to Work... For Us.

03/20/2008 12:02 AM

Avery,

I've been banging that gong for some time now, but nobody seems to want to hear. I use the model of a chimp in the jungle watching an airliner go overhead. He may watch and wonder what it is or how it's done, but no amount of textbooks are ever going to allow the chimp to grasp the mathematics of flight.

It may be the same for us. There may be fundamental aspects about reality, space-time, and everything that we're simply incapable of grasping because of the physical natures of our brains.

We do, however, tend to get along rather well without understanding the fundamental "what" and "why" of many scientific principles. For example, Gauss and Maxwell perfectly described electricity and magnetism, even though they didn't have a clue about what these things actually are. I have my own beliefs - but that's neither here nor there. Anyway, with their descriptions, we can do all sorts of stuff - radio, TV, etc.. Quantum physics is another one of those things that we use, but don't really understand (yet). And to be honest, QP has allowed us to do extremely clever things!!! QP solves for us the problems of lasers, nuclear weapons, all sorts of solid state and IC devices, even chemistry and nano-technology.

Furthermore, the jury is still out on the Bohr-model for quantum physics. There are many speculations that if our instrumentation gets better, we may find a solid structure that underlies the "fog" of quantum physics. As noted in the article, string theory is some what of a departure from quantum physics (though a stalled departure).

Also, there is another New Scientist article I hope to post in the near future. This one talks about the role of time in modern physics. Surprisingly, time is not important in Relativistic physics, but quantum physics depends strongly on the concept of an absolute "now." As a result, quantum physicists are currently working on ways to cancel out the need for using time in their equations. Hope you catch that one, too.

One last thing, there is a very large difference between a Universe driven by chaos and a Universe driven by probability. Chaos infers never knowing what can happen. On the other hand, probability infers a Universe where you know all the possible states that can be, however, you may be surprised when some of the most improbable states become populated.

At any rate, I'm glad you enjoyed the article.

-vermin

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#17

Re: Why it Doesn't Seem to Work... For Us.

03/19/2008 10:55 PM

Hello vermin,

I agree on the language of communicating a new effort. The language must be as common to those who should understand what is being offered as it is to the offerer.

The language used here is mathematics, in English. I need someone to tear my mathematics to pieces. You qualify by all I have read here, at CR4 and the title of Guru certainly does so. My humble request is tell me where the math is wrong.

I will be pleased to forward the rest of the just-about-peer-review to submit paper.

10. On the Nature of the Cosmic Universe

Introduction The belief that Hubble's constant related to redshift is due to a Doppler wavelength shift resulting from receding stars and galaxies, has caused considerable consternation and decades of effort. The recent discovery of Supernova SN1997ap with a z = 0.83 has surprised and fascinated the world of astronomy. Based on the cosmic redshift of SN1997ap being higher than the extension of redshift predicts, suggests the rate of expansion is increasing greater than corrected supernovae (SN) luminosity would normally allow. If the expansion rate is increasing faster than predicted because the redshift is more than predicted, the far reaches of the cosmos appear to be accelerating. Here is offered a straight forward, calculated, mathematically simple means to reconsider Hubble expansion and accelerating Universe theories. A physical property of "empty" space explains redshift z, not Doppler. Without aid of Hubble, expansion or acceleration, the direct applicability and a near "perfect match" to conventional cosmology, the concept serendipitously discovered from Maxwell's electromagnetic (EM) equations is mathematically and graphically shown to explain the apparent expansion, and particularly, the apparent acceleration.

© Colin C. Ware 2008 soaralone1

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#20
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Re: Why it Doesn't Seem to Work... For Us.

03/20/2008 12:08 AM

soaralone1,

My only concern with your statement is Maxwell's equations are physics 101. It would seem to me (IMHO) that the two independent teams that came up with the acceleration results would have considered something as fundamental as Maxwell's work. Just a thought.

vermin-

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#25
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Re: Why it Doesn't Seem to Work... For Us.

03/20/2008 10:10 AM

vermin,

Yes, it certainly seems that at least one member of the two teams would have discovered Maxwell 101. My thinking has gone from being TOTALLY surprised and confused when I serendipitously found Maxwell 101 did not give the answer I sought. It gave me the basis of TTOE.

TTOE is so simple in describing the Tools for TOE, the Holy Grail, that I realized -- now we are in the language realm -- the present day searches re not using the simple language of basic physics.

This "new" generation of researchers were taught theories by the generation or two older, [repeated over and over] by until we reach Einstein 101. There, the two paths separated. The "other" one had not many pursuers -- the excitement of the "new" theory(ies) flooded over the real benefits of the "other" path.

I quote from a portion of my work

The trigonometric equations I sought were not available; I set to deriving them; this commentary being that process. Maxwell equations were the bases for my intended derivation but instead of producing atomic, charged particle dimensions, I found to my astonishment: astronomical values. My surprising calculated results projected into "matches" falling in the midrange of many of the theoretically derived values. A "new" age of the Universe is mathematically calculated and Hubble's constant is calculated and near the mean theoretical value."

I was not "hard, locked-in" taught the theories that in 1940's the theorists were struggling with. They did not "know" enough to do that - though they knew a great deal. As one of 5 or 6 GI's in the Physics 101 class with some 20 or so "young-uns" (as we GI's politely called them), nominated me as the class's representative. Making an appointment, at the agreed time, I went to the professor's Office to find out how he became interested in physics – what was fascinating, intriguing? How did the work of Oertstead, Voltaire, Maxwell, and others apply to Physics 101? I came away with he would tell us – briefly -- what interested him for us to pick up the trail of Physics 101. After the next class, we [the class] came away with not much more than the mathematics of the "new found" theories.

"Why it Doesn't Seem to Work…" is the language. My language for my work is simple, calculus mathematics, in English.

soaralone1

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#26

Re: Why it Doesn't Seem to Work... For Us.

03/21/2008 5:13 PM

Hi Vermin,

Thanks for posting this. There may be something to it. The main problem as I see it is that people stick to the theory they were taught even though most if it doesn't make sense. It's time to forget what we were taught and put the next theories into place.

S

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#27
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03/22/2008 1:26 AM

I tend to agree. The major stumbling block to really understanding quantum physics is stuff like, "OK. Imagine this ball, and it's spinning, and it's there, but not really..."

Spin is one of my major quantum physics pet-peeves!!! subatomic particles DO NOT SPIN!!! It was just 75 years ago, they noted that some particles have a property that for lack of any better word, they "called" spin, but quantum physicists will say if you ask them, "No. The particle isn't really spinning. It's doing something, but spinning? No." One of the (for lack of a better word) "proofs" of this, is you can measure, say an electron, about any random idealized axis, and the electron shows "spin" in all directions!!!

So, the big point is - On the quantum level, ideas of classical mechanics just do not work, and tend to lead the layman astray!

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#28
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03/22/2008 3:45 AM

What is the particle doing that looks like 'spin' ? Is there a lay description of this, or does it go beyond the realms of everyday language ? Has the geek-like nature of some stabbed themself in the back with words like quark/strangeness/charm ? I didn't understand Hawkwind, much less the particle phycisists.

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#29
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Re: Why it Doesn't Seem to Work... For Us.

03/23/2008 2:49 AM

Particle physics is littered with "coined" words (with the exception of "quark," that's a particle).

However, quark theory is a good example. In the beginning, Murray Gell-Mann and George Zweig thought they could make all hadrons with just three quarks. It soon became evident that this was not the case. So, to expand the number of possible quarks they had to attribute more and different characteristics. Among these characteristics were strange, charm, color, and others. If you had asked Murry or George what exactly these characteristics represent, they would say that they have no idea, but extra characteristics are need to make the model work.

This was by no means their invention. Particle physicists had been doing this for a long time - here, we run into spin... If you ask a particle physicist (especially a quantum physicist) if subatomic particles really spin AND never stop spinning, they'd say no. "Well why do you call it spin then!!!" It was given that name when they measured this weird property that particles have that "some-what" resembles spin, but is not a reality in terms of REAL spin. It's just a name for a property that isn't really understood.

This really goes right back to the article I posted. For most of our education, we're told that an electron orbits about a proton, and that this makes up a hydrogen atom. However, if your physics education continues far enough or you threaten a physicist with grave bodily harm, you will find out that an electron DOES NOT orbit a proton in a hydrogen atom. But, the orbital model is easy for people to deal with. Hence the reason why when quantum physicists talk among themselves, they use the term orbital when talking about quantum states of electrons about a nuclei. It's wrong, but it's easy to visualize.

This, again, is the reason why I posted the article - to show why layman have such a hard time understanding quantum physics, and why quantum physicists have such a hard time communicating with layman. You would think that this lack of communication would have rendered the quantum physicists into obscurity, however, whenever technology tries to push the boundaries of the ultra small, quantum equations come to the rescue, and make everything work correctly... Go figure!!!

Any help? Does it make you feel less alone?

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#31
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Re: Why it Doesn't Seem to Work... For Us.

03/23/2008 3:46 AM

Thanks vermin, it's becoming clearer. I sort of knew about the electron orbit model thing. They went from current buns to 'shells' with electrons in set energy levels of orbit...then they changed that some time around the late 70's ? In short, these models are just analogies that fit the behaviour, even if we don't' have a clue what stuff looks like. On top of that, words are used to describe behaviour but are poorly chosen. They can be plopped in equations as a sort of numerical band-aid. Have I lost the plot, or is that so ? I'm guessing that an electron exists, but doesn't look like a billiard ball. If it did, somehow a nice picture would appear on the front of physics books ? You couldn't take a picture of a photon with photons, and none of the fancy technology can ever 'see' something like an electron. Heisenberg hell ?

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#43
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Re: Why it Doesn't Seem to Work... For Us.

03/24/2008 7:42 PM

Coined words infest so many worlds that language may be, not more important than we think, but more important than we can think. Have you read "The Gold at Starbow's End" by Frederick Pohl. A book that I enjoyed, but which I think I may now understand, and by saying that I probably prove conclusively I don't.

But your answer is impressive.

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#30
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Re: Why it Doesn't Seem to Work... For Us.

03/23/2008 2:54 AM

By the way, another example of this enlightened ignorance, is Maxwell and Gauss. They perfectly describe the nature of electromagnetic radiation. However, if you were to ask either of them what magnetism or electricity was, they'd probably answer, "I don't know!"

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#47
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Re: Why it Doesn't Seem to Work... For Us.

03/28/2008 6:25 AM

Spin is also a method used to create threads. Threads join things together. But that too has nothing whatever to do with the spin on a particle. Spin may have been coined because of a connection between charge and magnetism. Or by analogy, the next in a sequence of descriptors - after mass and momentum came angular momentum. Whatever, it doesn't mean what it sounds as if it does - and so back to verbal descriptors and round and around. I wonder if anyone finds "charm" as misleading as they do spin? [if so, it all comes back to politics]

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#48
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03/28/2008 7:36 AM

Maybe it would have been better to go Germanic and refer to specific eigenvalues for particles. It's a bit daft to use an arbitrary word on the whim of the person discovering/proposing/whatever a particles characteristic.

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#49
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03/28/2008 8:46 AM

Both sets of discoverers (Dutch and American) originally thought in terms of rotation. That aspect was quite important, because the idea of it being spin did contribute to the development - in particular to the relativistic correction that allowed the numbers to balance. Without such ideas (even if not later found to be literally correct) physics would be dull and advances infrequent.

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#50
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03/28/2008 5:25 PM

That's a relief, I didn't really want to see some new German phrase. So 'spin' has sreasoning, and 'charm' I could readily believe, but quark sounds a bit cheesy and it's a little late to start reading Finnegans Wake. <sigh> I shall have to read up some more on this later.

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#51
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03/29/2008 7:18 AM

I haven't followed this up, but I would regard Finnegan as incomprehensible to a rational being - so there could be some humorous relevance to the choice of "quark".

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#53
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03/29/2008 9:40 AM

From thefreedictionary ; Word History: "Three quarks for Muster Mark!/Sure he hasn't got much of a bark/And sure any he has it's all beside the mark." This passage from James Joyce's Finnegans Wake, part of a scurrilous 13-line poem directed against King Mark, the cuckolded husband in the Tristan legend, has left its mark on modern physics. The poem and the accompanying prose are packed with names of birds and words suggestive of birds, and the poem is a squawk against the king that suggests the cawing of a crow. The word quark comes from the standard English verb quark, meaning "to caw, croak," and also from the dialectal verb quawk, meaning "to caw, screech like a bird." It is easy to see why Joyce chose the word, but why should it have become the name for a group of hypothetical subatomic particles proposed as the fundamental units of matter? Murray Gell-Mann, the physicist who proposed this name for these particles, said in a private letter of June 27, 1978, to the editor of the Oxford English Dictionary that he had been influenced by Joyce's words: "The allusion to three quarks seemed perfect" (originally there were only three subatomic quarks). Gell-Mann, however, wanted to pronounce the word with (ô) not (ä), as Joyce seemed to indicate by rhyming words in the vicinity such as Mark. Gell-Mann got around that "by supposing that one ingredient of the line 'Three quarks for Muster Mark' was a cry of 'Three quarts for Mister . . . ' heard in H.C. Earwicker's pub," a plausible suggestion given the complex punning in Joyce's novel. It seems appropriate that this perplexing and humorous novel should have supplied the term for particles that come in six "flavors" and three "colors." Well, I suppose that makes sense !

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#32

Re: Why it Doesn't Seem to Work... For Us.

03/23/2008 4:35 AM

Hi Vermin.

Just some thoughts, as energy cannot be created or destroyed, and as the normal procedure is for energy to be convert into some other form? eg: chemical to heat energy etc.

To poise a hypothetical question can the same thing happen in atomic nuclei, for example can one thing be there and then not there because it has transformed into some thing else, and later on back again?

I now its speculation but what are your thought on it.

Regards JD.

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#36
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03/24/2008 12:44 AM

That's a very interesting question! As far as I know, a nuclei can be excited and then radiate off electromagnetic radiation.

Of course, certain nuclei can decay, however, the products of the decay don't ever return. Also, I imagine (if one believes in the quark model), a quark might change its state, then change back. In essence, that would cause the nuclei to change and then un-change.

Anybody else have an idea on this?

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#41
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03/24/2008 6:49 PM

And to add to that interest a little bit more, gravity, a force that holds matter together, if it was energy, what would happens to it after reaching the earth or any other planet? Create heat and radiate back out into space, a transformation of energy?

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#45
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03/25/2008 12:48 AM

If it reaches you, you will be ever so slightly warped! One thing interesting about gravity is its weakness when compared to the other three known forces. Also, regardless of matter or anti-matter, it all reacts the same within a gravitational field.

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#33

Re: Why it Doesn't Seem to Work... For Us.

03/23/2008 10:31 PM

Some interesting thoughts in this thread.

I once imagined an artificial, scientifically constructed language. Nouns would be composed of building blocks I called "syllabits". Each syllabit would convey a basic characteristic of the item, such as "flat", "round", "thick", etc. I didn't thnk about verbs, but I'm sure they would be constructed in a manner similar to nouns. In this language, you could get by without adjectives and adverbs because characteristics expressed by them could be incorporated into the noun or verb they would have modified.

I have also speculated that fundamental "particles" might be nothing more than a part of space that is "folded" around itself.

While reading about the "orbits" of electrons in this thread, the thought occurred to me that maybe the electron in a hydrogen atom might "surround" the proton instead of orbiting it.

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#34
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Re: Why it Doesn't Seem to Work... For Us.

03/23/2008 11:53 PM

Hi 3Doug

Yes interesting what you say about words, I remember when I was young pondering the same things, I thought along the lines that the inputs to our minds is through the senses, awareness of sound, light, smell, touch, and the output is muscular, speech and movement. I think it is the inner sense of movement, that we use to connect our experiences, and speculated on possibilities.

This thread is informative, but to be involved in the subject, and pick up on some of the comments, it reminds me of Star Trek, beam me up. First one has to conceive the idea, then it has to be disassembled into language, then transmitted, then reassembled. That leaves plenty of room for error? How this can be overcome should raise some interesting points.

Regards JD.

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#35
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Re: Why it Doesn't Seem to Work... For Us.

03/24/2008 12:24 AM

Do what I do... Hit them and then point at what you want.

Muscle-in-muscle-out!

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#38
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03/24/2008 1:01 AM

Like jumping up and down on them, till you get some sense into them.

ouch.

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#39
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Re: Why it Doesn't Seem to Work... For Us.

03/24/2008 4:38 PM

Like jumping up and down on them, till you get some sense into them.


So, that's what Vermin's avatar is doing!

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#37
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03/24/2008 12:49 AM

A quantum physicist would say that the electron exists as a cloud of probability around the nuclei. Interesting enough, the lowest quantum level for an electron about a single proton, suggests that the electron actually moves through the proton.

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#40
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Re: Why it Doesn't Seem to Work... For Us.

03/24/2008 4:48 PM

How would a quantum physicist describe an electron that is not "orbiting" a proton or nucleus? Is it still a cloud?

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#46
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03/25/2008 12:52 AM

Well it does have a wave equation, and I believe its location is still probabilistic - and remember that under the right conditions, electrons act a waves. Prince Louis-Victor Pierre Raymond de Broglie proved that!

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#52
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Re: Why it Doesn't Seem to Work... For Us.

03/29/2008 9:20 AM

vermin,

Very interesting; where will I find "Prince Louis-Victor Pierre Raymond de Broglie" and his proof? His name comes up very often in my pursuits for TTOE.
It is the proof paper(s) publications I am seeking. Thanks; Nice meeting you again.

soaralone1

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#54
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03/29/2008 9:52 AM

You'll find him in Paris, but you're a bit late. So is he, he died almost exactly 21 years ago. You might find the proof on google by entering his name. This link refers to some of his writings; http://www.spaceandmotion.com/Physics-Louis-de-Broglie.htm

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#42
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Re: Why it Doesn't Seem to Work... For Us.

03/24/2008 6:59 PM

Hi Vermin,

I would like you to look at this link http://mb-soft.com/public3/electroa.html and tell me if you think this guy is on the right track.

S

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#44
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03/25/2008 12:44 AM

It sounds interesting, but I am somewhat at a lose to explain his enthusiasm. First, as the number of particles in a nuclei increase, the size of the nuclei decreases. As he climbs the elemental chart, he seems surprised that the one electron is held tighter by a somewhat proportional force - 1 electron acted on by n protons, where n goes from 1 to 31.

We could get into a whole lot of discussion on this, practically open-ended. For example, why doesn't the electron fall into the proton of a hydrogen atom, why multiples of 8 electrons give rise to the most stable chemical elements, and the difference between bosons and fermions... Not tonight!

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#55
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Re: Why it Doesn't Seem to Work... For Us.

03/29/2008 10:15 AM

vermin,

I am working on this. Some specific answers are near. Examining the atomic realm is key to understanding TOE, and to approach that is TTOE, the Tools for finding TOE.

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