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Can the FDA be sued?

04/05/2008 4:03 PM

According to the latest news flash here, the pharma industry is soon going to be protected by something called pre-emption, that the producer of a drug that injured or killed users cannot be sued for these incidents as long as the FDA gave their approval for the drug to be released and issued.

I am quite certain that that will never (famous last words) become law over here in Europe or the UK but in the USA can the FDA be sued over these events instead of the pharma producer in question?

It seems to me that if you give the matter of protecting the people to such an organisation as the FDA, you would expect responsibility in return. With this responsibility comes accountability one would have thought.

One thing is for sure, Johnson and Johnson.....a family brand that feels for you and your loved ones.

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#1

Re: Can the FDA be sued?

04/05/2008 5:01 PM

"During Thursday's hearing, Federal Aviation Administration inspectors described how they were threatened with dismissal when they tried to bring safety violations at Southwest Airlines to the attention of FAA managers."

---

"I'm here to report that more than one inspector along with FAA management have been looking the other way for years," said Boutris.

---

Above both from CNN. Boutris is/was an FAA Safety Inspector, giving evidence in an inquiry about Safety problems with the airline.

So can the FAA be sued as well?

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#4
In reply to #1

Re: Can the FDA be sued?

04/05/2008 5:24 PM

Do we know who did the threatening? If they could "dismiss" them, they were managers so they already knew of the problems???? I don't get it

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#7
In reply to #4

Re: Can the FDA be sued?

04/05/2008 5:39 PM

That makes (at least) two of us.

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#2

Re: Can the FDA be sued?

04/05/2008 5:08 PM

We'll both are US Federal Government agencies, and while in the US you can sue anyone or anything there is little chance of suceeding in a law suit against a government agency.

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#3
In reply to #2

Re: Can the FDA be sued?

04/05/2008 5:22 PM

As a right minded upright intelligent person, how do you feel about that? I am sure you fly for your work and holiday and when you are ill you use drugs.

I am not propagating mass hysteria or even anything remotely hinting at the old "conspiracy" but when thinking about it it does make me "uneasy".

I read somebodies signature here on CR4 which said "if you want to find the truth, follow the money" or to that effect. Friend of mine worked as a high flying salesman for the pharma industry, including some American ones, and says that no industry is as corrupt as the pharma is today and has been. He has since retired (voluntarily) and would never go back.

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#6
In reply to #3

Re: Can the FDA be sued?

04/05/2008 5:37 PM

I can't argue against your logic, and there have been plenty of cases, even recent ones where drugs have been found to be damaging after having been on the market for years.

As for flying and the FAA, I can only point to a pretty low accident rate as a reason to not worry much about the FAA.

The auto industry knew about the benefit of seat belts, and the tobacco business knew about the danger of smoking, but both did nothing.

The bottom line goes back to your quote about following the money. Pharma, and Airlines fully understand that consumer deaths are going to hurt their bottom line. There is a certain number of deaths they can accommodate financially depending on cash flow, and they will accept that. Airlines are running on thin margins and will be somewhat risk aversive, so really the FAA is unnecessary until the margins are so thin that they start taking risks to stay in business. Not sure we are there yet.

On the other hand pharma is as bloated with profit as the tobacco business, they can absorb a lot of customer deaths before it significantly affects their business.

The bottom line is that a large portion of the US population does not consider protection of the people from business interests as a valid role for the central government, in Europe, everyone would consider that a fundamental role of the government. Different cultures...

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#5
In reply to #2

Re: Can the FDA be sued?

04/05/2008 5:36 PM

... and in both cases, the possible bad effects resulting from their screw-ups can affect the rest of the world (probably more with the FDA, as I'm sure the US drug manufacturers/exporters can have effects reaching pretty well anyone on Earth).

Say a plane crashes in Asia, or a few thousand kids get prescribed bad medicine in Africa, the US federal agencies protect the guys who screwed up.

Sad.

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#8

Re: Can the FDA be sued?

04/05/2008 11:59 PM

There are ways, one would be Civil RICO where you become the prosecution. Another would be obstruction of justice under Treason (only way to get a judge). Yet another would be the individuals if they act outside their directives thus loosing immunity.

Most Judges have never properly filed their "Oath of office" per the U.S. and State Constitutions. Find recourse for that and you will have remedy.

'if a nation comes down from its position of sovereignty and enters the domain of commerce, it submits itself to the same laws that govern individuals therein. It assumes the position of an ordinary citizen and it cannot recede from the fulfillment of its obligations.' 74 Fed Rep. 145 following 91 US page 398

Remedy and recourse, Lawyers are officers of the court so are bias. Am. Juris prudence- Client is a person of unsound mind and therefore a ward of the court.

You have options that they do not, and it is not in their best interest to or the courts to explain them to you.

The court ruled jurors have the right to decide the law, but they don't have to be told about it. It may sound hypocritical, but the Dougherty decision conforms to an 1895 Supreme Court decision that held the same thing. In Sparf vs US (156 US 51), the court ruled that although juries have the right to ignore a judge's instructions on the law, they don't have to be made aware of the right to do so.

http://www.caught.net/juror.htm Juror's handbook. What you should know but the system does not tell you.

The problem is digging through all the BS to understand the system, the law and the tactics the courts use to uphold the status quo.

You are in an Article 4 Congressional tribunal not an Article 3 Judicial court. Play the game with the wrong set of rules and loose. Or know your rights (lots of work) and cause an Article 3 court to be held (not easy).

As my agent/co-counsel (past the bar the year I was born) stated to me " you learned more about the law than you ever wanted to know". How right he is.

Brad

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#9
In reply to #8

Re: Can the FDA be sued?

04/06/2008 5:03 AM

Maybe SiCKO "the film" put it right. Seems no politician is beyond "mis-speaking" and following money that comes from your biggest traditional enemy.

I find it all a bit hard to reconcile. I am not an outright lefty and never will be but government is for society and the people, not for themselves. Corruption always wins.

"90% of the politicians give the other 10% a bad name" Henry A. Kissinger

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#10
In reply to #8

Re: Can the FDA be sued?

04/06/2008 7:26 AM

"Lawyers are officers of the court"

Interesting. Since a lawyer is an officer of the court, he is therefore an officer of the judicial branch of the government. Under the concept of separation of powers, does that not automatically remove him from eligibility to serve in the executive or legislative branches? A legislator who chooses to run for executive office is required to resign his legislative office. Does that mean that attorneys must resign their standing as attorneys to run for legislative or executive office? We may have a number of officeholders, possibly including the current President, who are ineligible to serve. According to the terms of the military oath of office, (executive branch, under supervision of the President) to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic", and with the powers given them by the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice) to remove a superior officer under certain conditions, would not the military have the obligation to remove the offending officeholders, up to and including the President? reply to xvxfuzzyxvx@aol.com

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#11
In reply to #10

Re: Can the FDA be sued?

04/06/2008 1:14 PM

I didn't say Judicial Article 3 court. An Eagle standard on the flag (not banner) in all corporate and gov. standing denotes Executive jurisdiction. A spear and you are in a court martial proceeding.

Go to prison for a crime you didn't do and trust the system. Better yet Don't.

1988 Congress passed the Admiralty Jurisdiction Expansion Act merging: Civil; Criminal; Equity; and Probate courts into Admiralty.

Admiralty is an Executive Court which had jurisdiction over international treaties and crimes on the high seas.

The question was "Can The FDA be sued?" Doubtful in a 1983 action, but there is recourse if you learn the rules and pack a lunch(think BIG).

Brad

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#19
In reply to #11

Re: Can the FDA be sued?

10/21/2008 2:48 PM

Doing some research today and couldn't find my the link to the Admiralty Jurisdiction Expansion Act. Without my source for this I can not defend it so I retract it.

Brad

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#12
In reply to #10

Re: Can the FDA be sued?

04/06/2008 4:19 PM

U V knows his stuff. Believe it.

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#13

Re: Can the FDA be sued?

04/07/2008 6:29 AM

There is always a lag, whether it be state or federal jurisdiction, between the time at which a legislative bill (too often someone's pet peeve project) gets introduced and the time such a bill is understood in all its ramifications. So if "pre-emption" follows the same course, it most likely will fail to be enacted...on Constitutional grounds. What ground, you ask? Try...equal protection.... It is already the case that any litigant could argue, and they not infrequently do, that a regulatory approval confers a product liability warranty and/or immunity. To memorialize such a claim or defense as a matter of statute would deprive...even the right to make the claim, or argue the merits...tantamount to denial of day in court...denial of due process.

So it is likely that even FDA would (eventually) oppose such a monkey being placed on its back. Nor would a right thinking legislator want to place such a burden on FDA's (or any bureau's) back...their budget should be first and foremost for carrying out their mandate (the evaluation of food and drug safety); not for paying of lawyer's arguing sovereign immunity case law.

PS: could not follow the link provided. it appears to be a cookie monster.

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#14
In reply to #13

Re: Can the FDA be sued?

04/08/2008 10:45 AM

PS: could not follow the link provided. it appears to be a cookie monster.

Sorry, just grabbed the first google link. Try this one, it is a primary source.

http://www.fija.org/

Also many are enacted but never funded. JFK still has the issuing of silver certificates as an executive order 11110 (real money not currency) on the books they were recalled upon his death but the order is still active.

Brad

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#15
In reply to #14

Re: Can the FDA be sued?

04/08/2008 3:54 PM

Also, many some (laws) are enacted "enacted" (by legislation or consequentially by executive order) but are never funded. JFK still has the issuing JFK's issuing (as head of the Executive, hence head of Treasury) of silver certificates ("real-money" paper currency exchangeable for the metal, not just "promise to pay" notes) as an executive order 11110 (real money not currency), [is still active] on the books, even though they (silver certificates) were continued to be recalled upon before and after his death but the order is still active.

Brad,

No offense intended but, the original example seemed a bit tortured at first glance. Is the above rephrasing what you were intending to say?

The site (new link) about juror nullification was quite interesting. Did not find any reference to the FTC (preemption) issue, however. Is there a link to it in the site that I did not discover?

UG

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#16
In reply to #15

Re: Can the FDA be sued?

04/08/2008 8:31 PM

Sorry, been sick, I just had woke up and then got called out on a job. Should have waited to proof read it after I'd gotten some blood out of my caffeine system. Your version is a much better read. The only change is Federal Reserve Notes are commercial paper of debt promised to be paid to the international bank called the Federal Reserve. Could be wrong but it sure looks like it.

Sorry FTC preemption? I'll have to go back and look, the jury issues was the point I was bring up. The Guest (Sorry you all look the same) could not access the link.

I do appreciate the UG to distinguish you from other guests.

What I have found out is, there is much you can do before going to court (pre judicially). The court only handles issues in contention. No contention, no jurisdiction. I'm still learning, but I have not lost a case I've actively helped in. Yes I'm a jail-house Lawyer. Everything I was taught in high school about law was BS.

The problem is the U.S. Constitution has been defined as a living (changing) document, thus has been augmented or crippled depending on your perspective. Constitutional Rights have been traded in for corporate privileges.

I'm rambling on my soap box, exit stage left.

Brad

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#17
In reply to #16

Re: Can the FDA be sued?

04/09/2008 5:51 AM

The only change is Federal Reserve Notes are commercial paper of debt promised to be paid to the international bank called the Federal Reserve. Could be wrong but it sure looks like it.

Reach in your wallet and check any currency note to convince yourself that the Federal Reserve Note, like any promissory note, is a registered promise to pay the bearer...with ultimate redemption coming as (via a bank) a note returns to and is retired by a Federal Reserve Bank. By law currency is not issuable by commercial concerns (or even banks...although the latter was once the case) so currency notes do not fall in the category of "commercial paper." The promise to pay (to back the currency) is not to a Federal Reserve bank but, rather, by a Federal Reserve bank...hence, Federal Reserve (promissory) Note. The international bank(s) and the US-domestic Federal Reserve System are distinct and different entities.

I must admit with apology my being remiss in failing to add my UG moniker to the prior Guest posting. With that I exit stage right.

Regards,

UG

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#18
In reply to #17

Re: Can the FDA be sued?

04/09/2008 1:20 PM

Hey UG,

When you read the Federal Codes on The Federal reserve notes they are not Capitalized but your Federal Reserve Notes are. Try to use your name not all capitals in court if there is no difference.

As for the Federal Reserve itself It is not known whom owns it. The 300 preferred stocks are not listed but no taxes are paid in the U.S. on them. Foreign creditors equals a foreign bank.

Federal reserve notes are not money, they are notes of credit. Fractional banking backs 10% or less of the currency. Next I would ask redeemable in what? Money is gold and silver per the U.S. Constitution.

Also when you study the law don't forget the U.C.C. [Uniform Commercial Codes] You are not a party to these laws but the states in part or in whole are.

States are Federal entities per the Buck act. Federal Rules12 A & B allows you to use Federal rules in State courts. Much is not disclosed to the "Public" because the public wants to be taken care of not care for themselves.

enough of my soap box back to work

ps no caffeine yet please make allowances thank you

Brad

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