Caustics, Acids, and Water Blended Electrolites as HHO boosters

I am very interested in your new electrolite solution. I am awaiting my Smacks booster that is said to produce 1.7 lpm @ 20 amps. What I really want is about 6-8 lpm with an amperage I can make work in a vehicle. Are there any plans for the pulsing technology? I do not understand it very well and want to learn how to make this work. It seems like the only way to realistically produce enough HHO to get big gains. Are there parts or units I can get to make this pulsing happen? Do I need to build my own cell and incorporate this technology to make it work together or can it be adapted to other units? I have heard of HHO units that do not use electrolytes but use more water. There is a unit on E Bay that claims to run on 10 amps and put out 6.5 lpm of HHO I find this hard to believe but it would be awesome as they are going for $395.00. and you could use 2 for a combined 20 amps amd 13 lpm of HHO.

Sorry for all the questions this stuff has got a hold on me and I spend most of my available time on the computer researching it. This technology is just way to important to humanity and the enviroment for me not to take it seriously. I am determined to get it working on my truck and the help of people like yourself will help me get up to speed with some of you who are more advanced than I. I am not out to make a ton of money for myself with this stuff I would like to get way better mileage and do the right thing for the enviroment and help raise awareness of what can be done. I believe this is the future of energy and feel the more people that believe in it and can see that it works the better. Sure makes you woder what the oil and power industries think of this stuff. I want to see it out there and I want to see it out there bad.

There are a variety of "caustics" available. These can be selected based on whether a quick or a slow reaction is required, whether some buffered pH response is required or not, and cost/supply of course. For instance, NaOH is on allocation in some regions.

Let me know if the combination of slow/buffered/lower-cost-than-NaOH. I might be able to offer useful info.

Dear Mag.

Have you tried the vinegar and distilled water in your Booster. It is my experience that you start with the distilled water and add the vinegar a little at a time. Stopping along the way to monitor your results by checking the liter volume output of said fuel gas.

Toomuchfun

Because of the money involved, I might want to keep my mouth shut here. I am a member of the engineering community and therefore, must contribute for integrity's sake.

The theory for some is not that the HHO is not supplying energy per se but is improving the efficiency of the gasoline reactions.

I designed a system long ago that did something similar. It was called the fuel amplifier. I refined the device and provided proof of function studies.

The bottom line is that we know the burn for gasoline is woefully incomplete. Better dispersal will translate to better burn. Also, a leaner fuel/air mixture will result.

There will be no magic bullet but like always, incremental improvements will accumulate to the state of the art.

Bottom line. If the efficiency of the combustion is improved sufficiently to accommodate the energy used to make the 'catalyst' then the process has been improved.

Perhaps you will calculate the necessary improvement per unit HHO and we can determine if there is a net improvement?

Reply to hioptemp.

I respect that you have made your own observations regarding the over all oxy-hydrogen experience especially thru your own experimentation.

However I must ask weather or not you have tried your experiments with the high voltage infusion I described previously. If not I suggest that you read the first 23 pages of the Bob Boyce experience. In the world of invention and scientific experimentation, accidental discoveries are the norm. I offer this comparable experiment as an example. Break open several eggs in a a bowl. Lying there passively they are like the plates standing in a booster with the electrolite in place. NO ENERGY APPLIED. Take a fork and stir the eggs a bit, now they are scrambled, not unlike the plates with energy applied. Now add a tablespoon of ice water to the mix and stir it with a blender. The eggs will now be and cook light and fluffy. The light and fluffy concept, at least in my mine is not unlike what happens to the hydrogen atoms as they are separated from the oxygen atom in the water molecule, by the addition of the high voltage pulses.

Thank for your in put!

Toomuchfun

Second reply to hyoptemp.

Toomuchfun determined that dangerous blends of electrolite were being used in the latest hho booster designs.

I certainly appreciate your input regarding your past experience. Being a member of the Engineering Community certainly lends credibility to your comments. This having been said! Do you have any input regarding any possible electrolite that can produce the desired results with a minimum risk to damaging an ICE. We know that salt works, caustics work. strong acids work, but all can damage an engine. This was the prime mover in my search to find an electrolite that might prove weak enough that it would not damage the ICE and still produce the desired results.

Again Thanks for your intellingent input!

Toomuchfun

I think the answer is to rethink the ICE! We know the temperatures for HHO combustion are MUCH LOWER. Also the compression differentials are about the same but the top and bottom are shifted DOWNWARDS. What does this mean?

We can use heretofore impractical materials for the engine!

I think we should experiment with plastics and use parallelism in the design.

For example, a 32 cylinder, plastic cylinder ICE.

Will someone contribute some measurements on an HHO modified engine and someone else do a temperature/pressure study versus PET or LEXAN? We need a solidworks or We may be able to construct a prototype for very little money and study a TRANSPARENT ENGINE!

transparent aluminum would be best, Scottie has a great simulation. Hydrogen ICE engines have been built and the cooler temperatures are still over 600 F. The cost to make Hydrogen is twice that of just using an electron based engine.

OH, show me what HHO is, I've searched all my texts and not one chemist or physicist has ever made HHO. I have found a mixture of H2 gas plus O2 gas being made, but never ever HHO, heck, the LHC people have never though of trying to make that stuff, maybe you could get them to whip up a batch.

Reply to Rich

I have learned over the years that if you want to produce large quantities of hho you must have either huge plate area and massive quantities of electricity. This supports the nay-sayer point of view.

Today's technology debunks this theory! Today we have found that plate area that is not submerged in the electrolite doesn't produce anything. Plates that seem to be between 2.5" X 4.5" and 6" X 6" produce exceptionally well when all plates are energized and are spaced approx. 1/8th" apart. I have found that 11 plates produce well in a single cavity booster. Others like Bob Boyce determined that to get the most out of a system for the energy put into it even more plates could be used and up to six separate cells were correct. Using more than six separate cells didn't return a proportional amount of hho. These separate cells do not have to be in separate containers. As a mater of fact six cells can be constructed in something the size of a 7.62 mm surplus ammo can. And the ammo can when lined with plexiglass becomes your explosion resistant container. Other Ideas can work just as well. Common sense works well here.

Another issue that stands out to me is the connections to the plates. I prefer to connect the plates together with ss screws, separating pos from neg of course. The screws are long enough to protrude out side of the container. and become the connection points for the elec. current. Insulators and spacers hold the electrode packet in place securely inside the container. Separators inside the container prevent the electrolite from making continuous contact thus making each cell separate from the other.

I came across the vinegar spiced electrolite by accident. I had tried the other solutions and was concerned that I would not want to have that stuff sprayed all over the inside of my engine compartment, and being aware that the ANCIENTS used acidic, organic substances to make batteries for plating jewelry I decided to try white vinegar. It worked with tap water but the minerals and clorine etc. in tap caused excessive quantities of sludge to develop in the container. I decided to try distilled water. It is easy to make and very cheap to buy. It worked. The basic theory on blending these electrolites is to find the right blend of stuff that works for your HHO booster.

Several People are manufacturing PMS (pulse modulation systems. The best that I have seen is the one developed by Bob Boyce. Others may work just as well and be easier to make or get.

My belief is that diodes must be used in all connections, pos and neg and high and low voltage. This supports my theory that the plates should remain energized And be pulsed with the high volts. This was born out with the Bob Boyce discovery of a problem he had with an alternator.

Toomuchfun

FORGET it HHO as a fuel is an urban myth. The amount of energy used to make it exceeds the amount of energy yo get back.

Its a fun science project and you can read up on what happens with different electrolytes under electrochemistry or google Choloralkylai. Notice the words, if you use NaCl as an electrolyte you make deadly Chlorine gas and corrosive HCl.

You can get lots of "interesting info on you tube." most are table top experiments conducted by wannabe inventors trying to sell their info to someone. Anyone!!! There is much better info available out in the real world. Bob Boyce raced big power boats. Did it on HHO. Was accepted as a legal fuel by the APBRA. Made the stuff on DEMAND right in the engine compartment. Learned about the high voltage pulsing by accident. Ran a 6 cyl. car in his garage on the stuff without any other fuel added, AND HAS DEDICATED HIS KNOWLEDGE AND PLANS FREE TO THE AMERICAN DOMAIN. (public)

Are you too lazy to become better informed.

Toomuchfun

I would have to agree wholeheartedly with Toomuchfun and then there was Stanley Meyers too. This stuff has worked fairly well in the past and is working to various degrees now. This technology will work even better in the future. People are learning from Boyce, Meyers and each other, this additional study and experimentation will be pushing it forward. People almost always resist change, it requires more work of them. The open minded positive thinkers always elevate our technology because they are not bound by scientific dogma and that open mind will alow them to create greater advances.

It was not long ago the world was believed to be flat. This HHO technology probably would have been more advanced by now and more well known If it was not affected by big buisness. The biggest industries we have are oil. defense and utilities and those industries do not want that to change. Money is power and that same money is how politicians get elected, no lie detector test, background check or much education is required of them. Firefighters and Law enforcement have to go through all that and we do not have nearly the power they do. The more advances that are made the more these industries will have to accept that these technologies are the future. Green technologies are available and growing every day. Learn about what happened to Mr Diesel who invented the diesel motor and what fuel he designed it for.

I do not feel I have the technical ability to advance this technology like those here and on other sites I am just a firefighter who is DAMN PROUD of those who are working to advance this technology. H20, H nad O both support combustion but together we put out fires and drink the stuff yet when seperated those 2 different elements accelerate the combustion proces. That in and of itself is absoilutely amazing to ponder. I believe this technology will become more refined, is the future and is extremely important to the planet and humankind.

Reply to vicini by Toomuchfun

Your comments are basically accurate, but fail to reflect on the past and future. Cars of the 60's were able to get fairly good fuel mileage if driven conservatively. I know this to be a fact and will not accept argument regarding that issue. Fuel mileage took a backwards turn when the smog pumps and other inventive ideas came into play as the result of the pollution problems that had arisen as the result of TOO darn Many people driving cars.

I suggest you consider the following. Todays cars and trucks are

not only fuel hogs they are electrical energy hogs also. Yet we have had no problem producing alternators with the capacity to handle the loads. 100 amp alternators are common in todays larger passenger vehicles. Few if any need this capacity. It isn't unusual to buy a rebuilt alternator that has twice or even three times the power as the original had prior to rebuilding. This having been said todays autos have enough electrical energy available to power up a 15 amp, 150 watt, 12 volt hho boost set-up. Further the amp draw is divided by the number of cells in the system. Ex 5 cells + 3 amp draw per cell. If you don't under the effects of high voltage I pray that you never learn, It will kill you. You are correct that it takes too much low voltage to produce HHO in usable quantities. The law of thermodynamics dictates this. HOWEVER; when it comes to high voltage as applied along with a saturation of low voltage the law of thermodynamics is as antiquated as the professional opinions that man would never walk on the moon. Only a fool denies progress after it has slapped his face. If you have done the same experiments that I have and that were done by BOB BOYCE and others and have proved us wrong with your actual experiments please show us your results.

However if all of your knowledge comes from academic sources only, I simply consider your education only partially complete.

However I do appreciate your comments if not your opinion.

Toomuchfun

PS. I HAVE NO PLANS TO SELL NOR DO I SELL BOOSTER KITS OR PARTS AND AM NOT IN ANY CONNECTED WITH ANYONE WHO DOES.

People need a better way to go, and if we cannot find it thru this kind of OUTLAW TECHNOLOGY, revolution will occur sooner than later.

The thermo laws apply, you cannot get more energy out than you put in. I work at facillities that do this and your measly 120 vots is nothing! We have over 5000 volts electrocuting water and we cannot get more out than we put in. Here look it up.

http://www.uhde.biz/archive/upload/uhde_brochures_pdf_en_10.00.pdf

For thousands of years we couldn't break the law of gravity. Then "sputnic " later "Alan Shepard'" eventually " MAN WALKS ON THE MOON" now folks living in space "in man made laboratories". and have been there for years. We created the "ATOMIC BOMB" and graduated to nuclear explosives, have been building nuclear power plants since OAK RIDGE. I am a retired Building Contractor. I have corrected the mistakes of Artichokes and Injuns alike more than I care to remember. However I remember one statement made to me by a general superintendent on my way up the ladder. If you want to find the easiest and safest way to get a difficult job done, assign it to the smallest intelligent laborer you have on the job. The only thing that is impossible is to change is the mind of a person too stubborn to agree that skunks stink. even after running over a dead one on the highway.

NO INSULT INTENDED! BUT IF YOU WANT TO SEE THE LIGHT

turn it on!

Toomuchfun

Yeah! The trouble with "experts" they have tunnel vision and won't consider anything outside of the "Laws of science". Still these laws have been turned on their head many times. Just maybe by using pulsed high voltage spikes with low current one can get more energy out than one put in????????

5000 volts... Maybe your not doing it right. There are two very technical jobs in the Navy. The first is a nuc. Those guys are very very smart for the most part. Talk about work in languages only the guy here would understand. However, they have almost no common sense and often over think things. This is when you nuc something. I am in the second technical job which in my opinion is not that tough but very fun. I am an avionics tech and there are some of us a little lacking but most are pretty well rounded thinkers. I don't know if this stuff works yet but I am getting more excited about it as the days pass. Maybe you are using to much power or not introducing the power the right way. Theres more than one way to skin a cat or whatever.

No offense. Just my thoughts.

Thanks Dan

The plants where they use the 500 volts are "world class" plants that cost $1,000,000,000 and they sell $10,000,000,000 in products. There are 100's of patents and they compete with the EU, China, and others, so your little ventures were performed 50 years ago and are nothing new to the big boys.

Reply to vicini "HERE LOOK IT UP" I DO NOT NEED TO LOOK IT UP. However I recommend that you and other nay-saying Engineers use all of the math, not just the parts that support the LAW OF THERMODYNAMICS. Add in the effects of the pulsed high voltage added in milli-seconds. Then present the

NEW LAW OF THEROMODYNAMICS "with pulsed energy in the form of varying degrees of high voltage.

Toomuchfun

There are lots of different classifications of engineers including those who deal with sewage. You may have an engineering degree, but that doesn't make you a mechanical engineer. Clearly you know very little about ICE's. If a human engineer can design and build a modern automotive "BRAIN" that is an electronic fuel management module, there seems to be no reasonable reason that a similar thinking engineer could not find a simple way to adjust it. I choose not to brag about my history, but I'll simply state that I am a fairly competent mechanic, who knows the in's and out's where ICE's are concerned. I once worked with an engineer that graduated from St John's University N.Y.He claimed to have been one of the engineers that "exploited" the public in the construction of the defunct Across Florida Barge Canal. He was the Superintendent for the construction of a Winn Dixie Supermarket Shopping Center. I won't drag the story out, but I found that he didn't know how to set up a transit or use one even after I set it up for him. SOME ENGINEER. Seems as though he found a free lunch when he graduated from St John's University.

Where did you find your free lunch.

TMF

Toomuchfun

Damn fine answer my friend...

Welcome DanH.

I'm pleased to learn that your interest has risen regarding the possibilities of Oxy-Hydrogen, A single duct fuel gas being a possible fuel of the future for the masses.

Unfortunately, many in the field of Engineering have learned that according to the LAW OF THERMODYNAMICS, Hydrogen cannot be cost effectively produced. Their continued reasoning states that " IT TAKES MORE ELECTRICAL ENERGY INPUT vs the COMPARABLE AMOUNT ENERGY THAT CAN BE EXTRACTED MEASURED IN BTU'S. When using only the "brute force method of extraction, they are not wrong."

They only look at the basic inputs of materials and methods. Then they go for the blinders and begin their condesending remarks about those of us who are looking beyond the sacred LAWS FOR THAT MAGIC BULLET that may provide relief for society.

Specifically they look at: a normal 12 volt automotive battery, and then to an alternator that produces 13 volts and stop right there. They don't consider that todays batteries posses 550 to 750 cold cranking amps of power. That the alternators that originally produced 30/35 amp hrs of electricity now have been upgraded to produce more than 100 amp hrs of the same electrical energy. Then most of all they totally ignore that the secrete to making the system perform is the addition of something called a PULSE MODULATION SENDER. This a little computer board with some very important parts on it. The board is adjustable and when connected to the auto's electrical system, it does not replace the original energy input. However it boosts the input by sending three or more separate high voltage pulses to the already electrically saturated electrode packet. These voltages are typically in the realm 60,000, 40,000, AND 20,000 AND ARE PULSED IN RATE CALLED MILLI-SECONDS. It has been observed that these high voltage pulses are what creates the additional scattering and dislodging effect upon the HHO atoms. It has the same effect on the Oxygen atoms. AS-------

these three atoms have now separated and do not immediately reconnect they are now in a usable fuel gas state. As they are not separated from each other and are transmitted to the engine in a single tube this is called single duct oxy-hydrogen. Dr. William A Rhodes patented this technology during the 1960's era. However it is the addition of the high voltage pulsing that has made the creation of this fuel gas go " BALLISTIC ' in terms of it's cost effective possibilities.

WE HAVE NOT CHANGED THE LAWS OF THERMODYNAMICS, " WE HAVE CHANGED THE MATH BY ADDING PULSED HIGH VOLTAGE.

The engineering community should invest their time in finding an explaination for this method of performance. And more important look for possible electrolites that will be safe for the general public to use and still provide at least acceptable performances.

The purpose of this chapter for this forum is not to argue weather or not it works. It absolutely does, in varying degrees depending upon the quality of the booster construction. HELP US TO FIND SAFE ELECTROLITES!!!!!!!!!!!

Toomuchfun

Hey all this math but I have built mine 2002 KIA sendona 16 to 39mph 2 units 1 9 plat2s other 11 plates EIFI PWM

wow you discover the cars acceleartor, you can now go 39 miles per hour instead of just 16 miles per hour. If you ment miles per gallon, you are a liar and a fraud. First off my sedonna gets 25 mpg max. It can get 39, going downhill with the engine off, but thats as best that it can do.

This information is presented for the possible interest to DanH, offduty and anyone hoping to reduce their cost of living and at the same time reduce their contribution to the worlds pollution problems.

Another forum is on CR4 titled WANNABE INVENTOR RESEARCHER.

The subject matter concerns the possible use of OXY-HYDROGEN

as a method of cooking your meals, heating and cooling your home and refrigerating and freezing your food. This is being done today and the technology is very old. Only it is being done thru the use of propane, natural gas, methane gas, methanol and alcohol. All of the aforementioned produce heat that converts to cool by the method of ammonia absorption. The Engineers will jump on this idea like a hawk on a rabbit. They will demonstrate that this method is inefficient because it takes more energy than it is worth to produce the desired results.

REMEMBER THE LAW OF THERMODYNAMICS. Here we go again!

To the Engineers I say ---- -- ---- --- and pull it down over your ears. If I can find a way to produce 500,000 btu's of solar energy and only need 5,000 btu's of energy to heat and cool my home and refrigerate and cook my food, I don't particularly care if I am wasting the other 45,000 btus of thermal energy produced by the sun. The sun wastes for more than that every second of the 24 hour day. And if I can effectively store enough of this energy thru using the sun to create HHO so I have a suitable supply to maintain the system thru the lean times. I can further wean myself from the need to survive at the hands of the petroleum industry, and the "Monsterous Grid."

We as users are NEVER GOING TO BREAK BIG INDUSTRY. AND WE SHOULD NOT TRY. We need the capitalization to fund the development of these new products that would make it safe and available to the masses. However BIG INDUSTRY HAS TO RECOGNIZE THAT IT ISN'T THE LAST STRAW THAT BREAKS THE CAMEL'S BACK. It's ALL OF THOSE STRAWS. The worlds middle class cannot continue to support the greedy demands of big industry. The monopolies granted to the energy providers must be better regulated by demanding fiscal change for the benefit of the masses. We all want a better lifestyle than our forefathers and mothers alike. And society needs this desire and the effort to provide it to continue progress. However it must be cost affordable. By pricing energy at what ever the public presumably can bear, they are causing the potential purchaser of other products that also needed energy to create. do decide what they must do without. It's a vicious circle. Only a more strict regulation of the energy producers can solve this problem. All forms of energy production must be included in order to be fair to investors and producers alike.

Toomuchfun

If you can get 50,000 btu's from the sun, great, then run your house on it. Why take any of it and make HHO and lose 50% of the energy to entropy and heating a toxic solution.

Its your money, you can do whatever you want.

Personal attacks do not make up for kitchen science.

Even those who are employed by big industry making who knows what and competing with the Republic of China have the right to remain un-informed. You also have every right to put your foot in your own mouth. Where have you been walking lately?

Toomuchfun

How can a person get the plans that where the HHO was produced to power the racing boat Pilondog@aol.com

The purpose for my starting this forum is not to debate weather or not you believe that hho can be produced in quantities suitable for transportation by the masses, at a reasonable cost.

Specifically it's purpose is to have suggestions offered for the availability of safe to use electrolites. Red Devil Lie and other caustics as well as strong acids are very dangerous for the unsuspecting public to be messing around with.

Again thank you for your inputtin!!

Getting back to my first entry, the "Red Devil Lie" (lye) may not be safe to work with, but there are other weaker caustics available that may be appropriate.

Respond to Mag. by Toomuchfun

Dear Mag,

I often go back and review all of the posts just to insure that I didn't miss important info and that I recognize its importance, and point it out to the others taking part in the forum. That having been said! Have you investigated any other agents. Have you any information you might like to share with us. Somehow, tho I may be mistaken, I thought you might be connected with
a producer named MagPower, or something similar to that. As I have stated several times I have no opinion to share with the public regarding the potential efficiency of any manufacturer's product. This is for the individual to determine for themselves. I do believe that a "MASON JAR" IS NOT THE PLACE TO BE PRODUCING HIGH EXPLOSIVES." To each his own! My experience with these electrolites include the following: Recovered auto battery acid, draino, red devil lie, baking soda, table salt, rock salt, lemon juice, and of course vinegar. I have found that the blend of white vinegar and distilled water remained relatively clear, produced lots of hho did not crap-up the booster with the sludge generally associated with "BROWNS GAS" and was generally maintenance free with the exception of course of having to occasionally add to the electrolite. I suspect that you have done your own investigations seeking to find the electrolite that may produce the maximum HHO for the volume and electrical energy available. If I am correct with my assumption, I would like to prevail upon you or anyone else who may have performed his own experimenting to share their results with all of us.

AFTER ALL IS SAID! WE ARE STILL TRYING TO ASSIST THE FOLKS WHO MAY INVEST IN ONE OF THESE SYSTEMS TO DO IT SAFELY.

Thank you for your input!

Toomuchfun

"

Don't know MagPower. Haven't done research on the topic. The fellow asked about safer alkalies. Mag Hydroxide is one. You are too suspicious.

If I have hurt someones feelings by seeming to be to suspicious',

to that person I offer my apology. However I think that you and all participants will agree that CERTAIN SKEPTOIDS are quite blunt with their comments regarding the "LAWS OF THERMODYNAMICS." I FIND THAT THESE KINDS OF COMMENTS WOULD BE INSULTING TO ME AND OTHERS WHO HAVE ALREADY PROGRESSED BEYOND THEIR LIMITED EXPERIENCE. That single duct oxy-hydrogen can be used to replace gasoline and diesel fuel is already a proven fact. And several individuals have already established as fact that the hydrogen atoms present in electrolite can be more abundantly released by adding pulsing high voltage to ss plates already saturated with enough electrical energy to cause the hho atom to separate from the oxygen. I didn't start this forum to attract attention to Toomuchfun. I started it because I have found that there are several sources of materials and plans available on the market that not designed to retain the explosive force of oxy-hydrogen. That alone is dangerous enough. But when you add in powerful caustics and acids, the possibility that permanent injury may occur to the unsuspecting magnifies greatly. Regarding my own preferred electrolite, White vinegar and distilled water. Any of us can safely drink it. It doesn't pollute. And some how you splashed a droplet into your eye, it likely will sting a little but you will not loose your eyesight. Having stated the above I wonder weather any of the producers and experimenters have any interest in safety. You can bet your last dime that should people begin getting hurt as the result of installing risky equipment and harmful electrolites, the Government will react to the matter and that will hurt the entire industry. Drop a little slice of meat into your solution of mag hydroxide, then tell me if you like to use it for an eyewash.

Thanks for your participation

Toomuchfun

mag hydroxide is milk of magnesia found in any grocery store.

Thanks, Not being a Dr. or chemist That didn't occur to me. I am sure that I have consumed the stuff at some time in my life, but not recently. Tho being a substance that is sold for medical uses I somehow find that it will be difficult to consider it for hho production unless it's performance compares with plain ole distilled white vinegar. Albertsons brand sold for $1.49 per gallon when I bought my last gallon about a year ago. By the way, Are you having the problems others are having. Specifically I call your attention to the sludge that floats around in the top of you HHO booster.

If so! why not try Distilled & Distilled, works for me!

Toomuchfun

Where does this Our Gang group meet is it in So Cal? I would be interested in doing a group on HHO. I am not quite comfortable enough to try my own design, but might be after seeing and talking to others at a club style meeting. Meetings might be a great way to push this stuff out in to the open more.

Dear Offduty.

"OUR GANG" is just a friendly way for to me refer to a group of HHO researchers that live in the greater Denver Colo. area. I met the recognized leader on line about a year ago. His name is Robert Hearsh. He has become a very good friend. He is fairly knowledgeable about this hho stuff. He has suffered thru a few explosions. Some just carelessness and others purely accidental. As a matter of fact he and I discussed the dangers of some of the ways that some hho reseachers were conducting their experiments. We came up with a list of safe standards that we would abide by in the future. This was mid week several months ago. Later that week the group met for some experimental observations. Robert insisted that the new and best lately designed canister be placed in a metal drum before energizing it. This was one of the safety measures that we had called for.

The canister exploded! No one was injured. All present were thankful and even the couple of folks that thought the metal drum was over kill had an immediate change of opinion. We have determined that our future designs and tests will be done in compliance with our safety guide lines. I'm not certain, but I think we have at least one member in California. I live in Sebring Florida. I have been invited to Denver several times but circumstances locally with my farm and critter care prevents that travel at this time. I will email you Roberts email address later today.

Toomuchfun

hike up the hill to CSM and get your facts straight. Find out HHO is just hydrogen gas and it cost more to make its worth.

With just a little more education you would have learned that Dr. William A. Rhodes Patented A fuel gas called Single Duct Oxy-Hydrogen. It is a combination of both a single oxygen atom and 2 hydrogen atoms. You are only partially correct that it takes more electrical energy to make than the comparable energy value out put. Did you ever hear of a utility company named Con-Edison. Thomas Edison believed that DC voltage was the future. His employee Nickoli Telsa did not. He believed that Pulsed higher voltage was the future. Today pulsed alternating current at extremely high voltages lights up the world. No doubt, DC voltage has it's place in todays world. But just as pulsed high voltage reversed the thinking regarding electricity, the same pulsed high voltage puts the concept that using electrical power to make Hydrogen isn't economical in the stone ages of science and engineering. Unfortunately the Bevis's and Buttheads of todays forums just refuse to accept it. I think I will drop out of this forum too. It's going nowhere fast!

Shoot, I hope you don't, I was learning quite a bit from your posts.

Thanks

look up Dennis Lee to see the extend of the fraud.

There was a patent for an Electrified table cloth so what!

The HHO patent was accept only because no one else drew up a single tube system and submitted. Why is it called Browns gas?

What is with the debate on the legitamacy of the technology of this stuff. If you do not believe in it why are you here. I thought the forum was to discuss electrolyte types and HHO technology. I do not see how creating a debate will help anything, can we please focus on the positive and try to help each other go forward.

This debating is just counter productive and ruins the forum in my opinion. Toomuchfun please stay, this is your forum and I joined it because of you and your knowledge. I have seen this happen to a forum more than once, personally I will not answer negative posts. I do not feel they contribute and will just ignore them.

This is anengineers forum, not a place to come and seek approval of ways to kill yourself or try to prove engineers are wrong and there is such thing as perpetual motion.

Toomuchfun even admits he's had explosions, but its too much fun. What if some 13 year old sees this type fourm and decides to do it some afternoon and bomb!

HHO is a farce, the links below to further patents show that it doesn't exists, its H sub 2 and O sub 2. The ligitiment use is in extreme use as a cutting flame. IT BURNS hotter because there is no nitrogen present that takes energy away in the form of heating it up.

Go play somewhere else. If you want to discuss electro chemistry and making H2 for use in hydrogenating corn oil to make bio diesel, lets discuss.

The 'gas' (actually a plural noun in singular form) has received its name from the inventor Yul Brown who holds two patents (US #s 4014777 and 4081656). The later patent is the most complete and, to myself, has the most information and applications.

Let there be no doubt about it. At least one giant oil company takes all developments in this field of DIY-self production of hydrogen very seriously. A few years ago, as part of my job, I made this oil company aware of people experimenting with what has become named HHO. It became my full time job to monitor developments and build a knowledge base, for the board allowing them strategic decision making, should the ocassion arise.

I will tell you where the situation is right now. The focus for the HHO-hybridisation is not at all blended in on the HHO-part as much as the design of components on the electricity part of the equation. Little 4 stroke engines can easily run on HHO without significant modifications. But such engines are not designed for transporting people in a 1200 kg-plus vehicle. The main cause for amateurs why lawn mower engines stall soon after the start-up is simply, because of knocking, since there is no automatic correction of the timing, as in most modern cars, by use of the knocking sensors.

So what happens is that in 2 stroke engines, the flywheel is not powerfull enough to encounter, the piston through back, and reach for the next cycle with the pressure delivered from the HHO-generator. In other words: it works too good. Let's the take place in a phase the piston is still in a phase that it can be thrown backwards, in its cycle.

But take a multicilinder 4 stroke engine, and some knocking adjustment, and you will run it perfectly. Other setups are of no use, even with pure hydrogen, for 2 stroke one cilinder engines, simply because the hydrogen is working too well, throwing the piston back to much after a few cycles, for the flywheel to push through enough.

DIY-ers will therefore feel kind of set back, which should not be the case at all. The major issue that will make it take off in strategic decision making by companies is as stipulated above, the eletrical part of the equation.

And the situation for that is very hopefull. It is the major focus. One need not convince about the advantages of HHO and that it will work to the extend that the oil company I work for, does have a roadmap ready to beef up its entire structure for adapting to the hydro-power economy revolution that is expected to become reality between three to eight years from now.

What we are looking into are therefore inventions of the type of a combination of Troy Reed, Doug Konzen, Perendev, Chas Campbell and a few less known, for a magnetic pulse system that will supply enough electricity for reliable output in terms of HHO-volume per second. The situation will then become like this: two extra reservoirs of compressed HHO in the trunk that can be swapped and refilled almost anywhere, also at home from a standardized generator pack, etc.. The active one of the two reservoirs will act to maintain enough pressure during accelaration and start up. Through a valve system, a third reservoir stores all excess HHO and also works as a protection system, that kicks in when air bags are deflated due to certain events, to release the HHO-production system in a safe way. The hood will only open in such instances when the controled release has finished its job.

So the main focus is not so much on the HHO-part at all, since that has been sufficiently covered a long time ago. It comes all down to the electrical part. Now apart from the use of electrical innovations in the field of the types mentioned before, there is still one thing to distinguish: conventional HHO-combustion and the next generation HHO-engine type combustion based on the principles of steam engines. That works with advanced injectors and modified combustion chambers, using both sound and laser technologies. Metal plates covered with water are excited by laser, to cause bubbles with sonophysical properties. Through sound/induction plates these bubbles are brought to generate tremendous heat instantaneously, causing pressure to a pressure chamber that will either compress air for an air engine or a steam engine.

The roots of this technology originate from several fields that needed integration: the discovery by John Kanzius triggered it. The weak part on his approach is pretty clear: the salt. Now, eliminating the salt, brought the researchers to other interesting discvoveries such as: Japanese experiments with bubbles caused by laser on water covered metal plates. And sonoluminiscence phenonoma. From there all what remained for piecing it together is what are currently the main experiments having my attention: induction heating. This is as far as I can go into this matter, for strategic purposes. I must admit, in order to display enough of what keeps one of the leading international energy companies innovation centers busy I must admit in the arrangement of discoveries, there had to be adjusted for a tiny bit of dis-information, just to secure all does not immediately become open source.

There is a long road between components that work and the design to let it all work together in a fashion fit for idiot-proofness, especially for the technologies involved here in systems that have a large risk of hitting each other. It is there on the drawing board, and partially the electrical part of the story, that if decision makers would want it within a year, it could be achieved and driving a car would be as simple as turning on the cd-player or frying an egg, plain or scrumbled.

This technology is the real future, but also requires the same attention for the electrical part of the overall setup of design. Now, it may even be that this more advanced sound/induction technology may enter the market sooner than the conventional HHO.

Forget about oil companies supressing secret technology. It is people themselves being stuborn to believe in their own intelligence what is the major cause of it all. If only inventors would be forced to write their inventions decently instead of crypted fashions in patents, the world would have been better off a long time ago. If the Troy Reed's, Perendev's would have described what they had developed in an open source way, petrol prices would have been less than 10 usd. It is not the fault of oil companies you are paying more at the pump than about 50 cents. It is inventors surpressing it themselves. Now scientists have to anticipate for such and replicate, and figure out what the inventors, did not think of themselves to make it work for real. Put a little bit of this, and that from Campbell, Konzen, Reed together and there can be a quick easy system, for a few bucks, that deliver every day half a buck net back for free. It has been done, but with less efficiency. It involves not getting more out than there has been put in, it is all about knowing what is in and using that what is in there all the time, such as gravity, magnetic attraction and repulsion once it has been created, by putting it in such framework, that the forces like gravity that are always there are used efficiently enough to create continued motion in a self-correcting way to make it reliable for usefull output, that makes hundred units produced cost less than half of the electrical energy it delivers in one week. So far it took for instance two months to make the economic break even of manufacturing costs, development costs, distribution costs plus profit, minus electric energy return. But with current prices rising, and more and more people looking for ways to save and more and more people sharing their ideas on the internet and Youtube, this break even point will soon become within reach and than conventional HHO and advanced bubble-steam induction will become the main focus of all engineering. For those who want to know who the real inventor of HHO was: look up for Garrett hydrogen carburator. And realize that was discovered in a time, gasoline was nearly as cheap if not cheaper in Dallas Texas, than clean water. Patents can be easily found using the patent-search in google.http://www.google.com/patents

I for one, really appreciated your post. You see so many negative posts on here that generalize about the HHO boosters and related technologies. I looked up the Garrett water carb on the internet. He was I believe a genius and I really think he had made a water powered car. But at the time fuel was cheap so nothing happened. And maybe he was so protective of he ideas that the plans were never were totally released. I had also thought of the idea you mentioned about adding an on board generator like the pulse motor generator Bedini had worked with. The idea there is to use one battery to run the pulse motor while charging 3-4 other batteries. Thus extending the range of the HHO enhanced combustion car. The extra batteries being used to break down more of the water. Therefore also delivering a higher percent of hydrogen into the fuel mix. Since you are interested in alternate fuel source research you might want to check out this motor. It looks great to me and would help our situation out as far as emissions and oil dependency goes if it takes off. http://www.cyclonepower.com/ Also I found this interesting. The Japanese has come out with a prototype of a small water powered car that breaks down the water with a chemical reaction process. Genepax makes it. Don

This is the technology a major car manufacturer is secretly working on for its electric vehicle concept for comfort sedans:

1. larger improved battery stack, sufficient for start and a 25 mile back up

2. a new technology based on cavitation-heating

3. conversion technology of heat into sound

4. piezoelectric system, that converts sound into voltage

Together with some other technologies (using energy from braking) this provides a 100% closed selfsustaining system, completely independent from anything, except some water. It even recharges the battery stack, more after about 10 miles, than the energy drawn from it. So thermoacoustics, cavitation and piezo-electronics technology is what will bring the future for electric comfort sedans. It concerns technologies borrowed partialy from cooling technology. Although only 30% efficient, that loss involved is more than made up for from the other components.

The nice thing about all of this initiative, is that it started several years ago, from experimenting with HHO-systems. That seemed to concern cavitation physics for a major part. Before this got to the atention, the inspiration had first been found in the hydrino theory of Randell Mills, making the team aware that conventional physics might have some flaws, whenever systems involve both liquid and gas in a dynamic way. Then it was discovered that from very little energy, lots of heat could be produced in a similar way as in a HHO-cell, when acoustics was used instead, to cause cavitation. They also found out that this had already been demonstrated and discovered by others, by using rotating perforated drums, causing cavitation. So there is a lot still that makes scientist look rather primitive, whenever cavitation of some kind is involved. And it seems there that all becomes truely important; buoyant behavior of empty space (bubbles) or gaseous filled space (vapor) in liquid, if somehow confined in its free movement, causing thus the kinetic energies to be maintained in the same confined system, resulting in cumulation of energy from very little input, to maintain the external kinetic confinement, that follows the slowness of mass rule, like a flywheel. This same principle can be used in more advanced designs though, making the cumulation effect even more substantial. The amazing thing is thus that the system contains more potential kinetic energy within from advanced transformations using Newtonian mechanics applied to cavitation phenomena, than the conventional laws of Boyle Gay Lussac etc., can come up with.

Of course this was checked with specialists in the field of cavitation such as oil companies (pipe line/hydraulics), leading scientists in the field of water flow flood protection management systems and CFR's, but since all could not provide any form of real answer, the team leaders knew they were on to something big.

So far the good news. There are some patents involved with parties threatening with huge legal claims, so this needs to be resolved first before the concept car can be introduced to a motor show. So all HHO-ers should take a closer look and refocus their attention to cavitation. That is as far as I can go, in order not to disclose things that are not yet out in the open and for quite some time.

if you can break 1 law of thermo, the others must fall theory. All the things you listed require exteral energy. The pilot thermo accustic plant is in Denver waiting to get its efficency up for a sorry 10% to at least 30% to compete.

Good try, but go back to school.

You probably meant some plant for cooling, fridges.Praxair is based in Connecticut but they may have plants elsewhere too. http://www.lanl.gov/mst/engine/

the one in this picture is in Denver, CO http://wwwofe.er.doe.gov/Accomplishments_Awards/Decades_Discovery/25.html

Dr Swift is now on his own trying to sell it.

To Vincini, In reply to your comment that hydrogen costs more to create than it is worth. I have a question. Does it burden your engine if you draw 15-30 more amps from your alternator as you are driving down the road? It seems to me that it would not. Maybe an engineer could correct me if I am wrong here. Why not use the excess energy that is available on demand from your alternator to get a little boost. Someone on this forum stated that some of the new alternators can put out 100 amps! I personally applaud those experimenters willing to put out the cash and time required to build, install and set-up these devices to try out. From what I have gathered, there can be a boost in miles per gallon, somewhat cleaner exhaust emissions and it is said the hotter burning mix even burns off some of the carbon build-up in your motor. As far as safety is concerned there has been many ideas that make the process safer and I'm sure more ideas will come. And there will always be those willing to try something they already know is dangerous. You can't stop ignorace. So where is the downside to trying? We have to start somewhere to try to improve our oil soaked, filthy toxic exhaust condition unless of course you are happy with where we are. Don

I find it kind of funny that people actually think that they can produce 10 - 20 amps without loading the engine. I also think it is a fantastic idea to produce a product that is so easy to make and so difficult to understand why it doesn't work. The reason it doesn't work is you connected it wrong... No better way to make money. All I see on this board are empty arguments based on invalid or just plain inept statements. Don't listen to the voices of reason because it is obvious the the neurotic rants of WAY2MUCHFUN is a much better source of information.

This post is directed (mostly) to the engineers who have responded. A patent application submitted by Linnard Griffin from Texas is available by going to http://appft1.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/srchnum.html and entering the application no. 20060180464

The various electrolytes described are most interesting and the application also describes numerous experiments in detail. The final result is stunning.

Whether you draw more from your battery or not to produce the HHO a basic jar unit can start saving you 19%+ on your fuel economy. Because this can run your vehicle so lean, one must use caution running this on the highway for fear of burning up pistons and valves (mainly valves). MIT did a study and if you can supplement the oxygen in the combustion chamber with 25% Hydrogen a 30% efficiency gain can be realized. Baking soda is not a good catalyst because it is not an acid. Vinegar is the safest acid to use, others have side effects like chlorine production which you don't want. BTW: Mixing baking soda and vinegar produces CO2. I verified this with a Doctor of Chemistry at my school. Make up your mind and go for it, otherwise stop telling us it doesn't work and go away.

Its nice to see another positive response about the hho add-on for cars. If I am not mistaken Stan Meyers was using something like the plasmatron to break down the water right at the injection point into the cylinder. His vehicle was a small displacement motor on a lightweight dunebuggy type vehicle. This makes it sound more credible. He claimed he was using no gasoline at all. We'll never know if it was for real because he was poisoned while he ate out at a restaurant. No one was ever able to replicate his design. Many of us will always wonder if he had pulled it off. Lots of inventors have been threatened or killed after they came up with an idea that would cut into big oil profits. Although no arrests or connections to big oil have ever been made that I have heard of. Hundreds of patents have been classified by our government so that no one can see these patents. You have to ask yourself what is that all about? A few inventors are afraid to come foward. Some were actually surpressed by our own government. Engineers and scientists with big educations come out of the wood work right away to tell everyone what a bad idea they have. And basically kill some ideas before they have a chance to get off the ground. We, our government that is, should be protecting these inventors and even funding them if their ideas are good. The big oil situation is hurting everyone. Most of us are very concerned. Why isn't our government or big auto companies very concerned? They seem to give only token attention to the problem to keep everyone off there backs. It doesn't take a genius to figure out why. Of course there are many more bad ideas than good ideas. But we need a leader in the whitehouse that will prioritize this oil dependency problem. Dependence on fossil fuels must be drastically reduced if we are to survive! Just my two cents. Don

tell us who the big bad government supressed. You can't even explain Stan Myers unsubstantiated claims. People have replicated his inventions, those people are magicians that use all the tricks of the trade.

If you don't think that HHO gas can increase MPG, period, ignore this message (and you should really find something better to do with your short time here on earth then hang around this thread. Oh, unless you're really concerned about my safety should I tinker with one of these generators, which I plan on doing in the next few days once I finish assembling the unit. Then thanks for your heartfelt concern!).

Has anyone thought about adding a small deep-cycle marine battery used for nothing but HHO gase generation,to bypass the alternator issue (space allowing, unfortunately I have a 91 Honda Civic!)? Charge it at home for very little money when it needs charging (I realize that if you spend more on electricity charging the battery than you would be spending on the gasoline you're saving, it won't be worth it. At some point, and I'd say we're there, the price of gasoline versus electricity comes in to play). Granted, you couldn't drive across the US without charging, but for short commutes it may work well.

Here's a link to some Penn State folks thinking outside the box:

http://www.nsf.gov/news/news_summ.jsp?cntn_id=110648

Here's some encouraging news. In Japan they have made a small car for demo puirposes that runs on water (hydrogen and oxygen really) There aren't many details as to how they are doing it but I think they use a chemical reaction to break down the water. It is a pretty expensive process but mass production and competition would bring the cost down. Take a look! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgU21JVt7Qg Centervilledon

Look at the writting on the car, its english. If this was a serious project, they wouldn't have to resort to advertising to the west. Its as stupid as the air car.

So what? I personally can't wait to get more details. I think its great that someone has been able to power a car on hydrogen and oxygen. More power to them. It's an emission free car. Isn't that what we need? It would be a great car for commuting but somehow I doubt that it will make to this country. Anyway, right now it is just a prototype. If it did make it the US, I wonder if it would be allowed on our roads for safety reasons even though you can ride a bicycle on our roads. Time will tell.

it is not emmisions free where did the H2 come from? in Japan, mostly Nuke, and some believe nukes are more of polluters in the long run.

You believe in Fairy dust too.

I see Mr. Negative has chimed in again. Its people like you who change nothing nor do you accomplish anything. H2, HHO, or Browns gas, whatever you want to call it comes from water being broken down. A second You-Tube clip that shows the guts of their machine looks like a hydrolysis unit but I can't tell for sure by the pictures. Over here many people are using electricity to break down the water to use as a combustion enhancement using the alternators excess capacity. They seem to have created enough H2, or HHO or whatever to run their car. Where does the Nukes come in? The You have a good imagination. I still say congratulations to them! I hope they make it. And you better be careful or I'll sprinkle some Fairy Dust on you and turn you into a toad if you're not already one. This Forum has degenerated into to petty useless spats. I think go somewhere that the people are more positive.

i like that, "they seem to have created" what, are they Dr Frankenstien, created?

You most likely believe that 4 cell phones can pop popcorn too!

The car has batteries that make the H2. The batteries are charged from the grin in Japan. Japan has a lot more nuke plants so thier grid is higher in nuke generate power. So, on the average, the H2 comes mostly from nukes in Japan.

Now, tell me the story about excess electricity from an alternator being what? Being FREE like in perpetual motion free?

If they are burning pure hydrogen and oxygen in their vehicle, the only emission would be water. How do you know if they have multiple batteries? Over here the batteries are charged by the alternator as you go down the road. They probably use something similar. Therefore they probably don't charge them from the grid. I really don't know if they use multible batteries because they haven't yet said. Why do you think that hundreds of people over here are trying the electrolysis add-ons? What ever losses created by loading 10 to 20 amps more onto the alternator is more that made up as evidenced by the overall mileage gain. Plus the burn is better and the emissions are lessened. I still don't see a downside to it. By the way, sarcasm isn't your strong suit.

where did the H2 and O2 come from, does it just appear out of thin air? Tell us how the energy gets into the vehicle!!

You are not an scientist or engineer unless you can perform a energy and material balance around that car in your head.

Obviously you haven't paid much attention to anything at all. Go back and read my post. I don't want to have to say it all over again. Look at it like this. If you can increase your mileage and clean up the emissions from your car for a few relatively inexpensive pieces of hardware, and not harm anything in your car--Why not do it! I don't have to understand how a TV works to know that it is working. I see the picture. I don't care how a scientist views the project. You can spend all day walloring in a bunch of useless information. If done right, it works and that is all that matters! Your out of pocket up front money will be paid back many times over after a certain period of use. I'm not designing a vehicle. That has already been done. I just want to improve a little on what I have. Other than the time it takes to build it and install it, I don't see any real downside to it. I say if you want to go for it--go for it.

so, go out buy all those weight loss pils or the ones that say they will increase thar certain part of the male body, they all have testimonials that they work, if you just keep buying them.......

Add a second battery, charge with a solar panel on the roof and that'll run your hho system. You'll want a big battery or a way to supplement it from the car's charging cuz you'll run it down. My neighbor has done this in a suburban. Mike in Bellingham

Serious experiments have been attempted as shown here, on youtube.

Some remarks have been made, on possible explanations for the low efficiency measured. The main issue raised is that if the hose takes in the HHO from the bottom of the bubbler, first O2 is being drawn in the cilinder before H2 will come into play.

Ideally the hose should have been connected to the top of the bubbler bottle, if the idea is correct that due to less gravity-attraction H2 will gather in the top half of the bottle and the O2 in the lower half, then what has been blasting and measured is the merely lots of O2 and hardly any H2.

Requests for new attempts with modifications have been made, and there are good chances a new experiment will soon be undertaken.

So here is a link and see for yourself, what is good and what might be reason for modification in this experiment:

http://www.youtube.com/user/AllgoodAutomation

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JkQZIm1wN0

can we use this gravity thingy to separate O2 from N2 and He from CH4? If we can, I'll move to sea level and the air will pure O2. And all those He storage wells in Amarillo will not require a $3,000,000,000 plant to separate He from CH4.

An empty bottle filled in a bubbler, is very close to a closed system, compared to the open air and will unlike gases in air, hardly be bothered by the various types of available interactions from existing molecular pressures and radiation that influence behavior and distribution of gases in the open air/atmosphere. So little to no ionization due to radiation or pressure from existing gasious molecules will occur, in such bottle. It is to be compared with a Zepelin, unless there takes place some sort of attraction between nuclei (protons) of H2 and O2, that introduces an unknown type of force, stronger than gravity. Maybe this Amarillo plant you mention is specialized in de-radiating of gas-mixes caught up in open air, or apply a bubbler mechanism on a large scale, turning large tanks in larger tanks. One will have to take a closer look at the behavior of CH4 bubbling through a liquid and precautions to be taken into account for eliminating any form of ionization effect, in the used materials, that might require therefor large tanks made from teflon or specially developed alloys. If not, they could indeed be wasting money from the tax payer and there lies a huge opportunity to fill your pockets with this method. Given such type of system, if would require special ways of pumping out the lower part and the higher part, and a system that determines up to which level the tank be sunk or pulled down from pumping out, before the level is reached, that the pureness of either gas pumped out stops. I can imagine such a system may not come cheap at all, and this 3 billion might even be a bargain.

The only other reason for the found low efficiency in the existing, unmodified, experiment, compared to the voltage/volume output ratio efficiency, could lie in the heat absorption by the metal cilinder, and/or the compressing of air if there would develop any spacing between the bottom of the lifted cilinder and the table. Ideally there would not occur any gaps in the cilinder system during the lifting.

Same Guest as +63/+68:

Read a little about Helium Amarillo Plant. Might indeed be less difficult and expensive to shift CH4 and He, apart from what is left after a rough shift. What remains after the rough shift, would however require still liquidification, to extract, so it might have been more practical to do it all at once in the same way, requiring thus much less space than the cheaper way, and those less spacy logistics economically balance the savings otherwise. So overall it could be more cost effective, to do it in the current fashion than in combnation with a cheaper rough shift.

If the hose is connected to the top of the bubbler wouldn't it just flow right out to the motor without going through the water? Isn't a bubbler supposed to take out "junk" in the HHO? How could it work if the hho from your electroysis set up goes into the top of the bubbler? Don

WOW, I cant believe the crap cat fight i just read threw. Guest, please register as a user. AND PLEASE if you want to be taken the least bit serious, STOP referencing youtube. Especially in the same sentence as scientific experiments. Most of the people posting on youtube know about as much of what they are talking about as my 11 month old son. BTW the alternator is being spun by the engine in a car which is being powered by petrol. If you spin the alternator with the engine and the engine is running only on hho produced by the batteries that are being charged by the alternator and running your radio and head lights and making gas to continue to run the engine and spin the alternator..... well just read it again and you will see the problem.

As for Vicini, don't get so hurt over him. He has thousands maybe millions invested in his ability to crunch numbers. Oh well if he is close minded. These engineer guys are a tough lot but they help me keep my feet on the ground when my imagination starts to get the best of me. I do find its a bit funny that no one had the balls to debate post #54.

Back to caustics and what not. Lye is the way to go for me.

As for hho working. I sent a guy a simple cell that I built and he called me all excited saying that his hwy mileage went from 22 to 29. That was on a very short road test with an analog mpg gauge a few days ago. More testing will be done I guess. All my research has slowed down considerably but I will still tinker around in the garage. Pay attention to post 54. You do have to tune your car to run this stuff. I am working on a better cell design now. All in due time.

Please stay away from youtube and ebay. There are many places to learn about this stuff.

Dan

I am in the process of making a hydroxy generator Using water4fuel's directions. They advise using baking soda for an electrolyte. I believe white vinegar would be better. You seem to have hit on the same idea.You appear to have used it. However, your mixture instructions are not clear. I presume you mean a cup of vinegar to gallon of distilled water, rather than a cup of distilled water to agallon of white vinegar, is this correct?

Please respond to the address below, since I am not a member of this forum. Thanks,

Bob Fowler

rfowler204@nc.rr.com

Toomuchfun,

I went to college and learned a little about thermodynamics and entropy so I understand others skepticism, however there is plenty of wasted energy from a normal petrol engine that we can take advantage of. Also it is getting harder to argue when so many people are getting the results that they are. I have started working on my own H2O splitter to see for myself what I can do with it.

I have only one thing to say for the nay sayers.....if I can install an HHO generator that only costs me around $100 and with that I improve my fuel consumption by 20% then I would say that it would pay for itself within 2 months, and after that it will continue saving me money every month after that. It is worth it to try and fail then to not try at all and tell others it is not possible!

And maybe someday some scientist will come up with a caytalist that will lower the energy input required for electroylsis to occur.

BTW Purdue University is currently working on an Aluminum Alloy that is showing promise to do just that!

I will post my results here....good or bad.

Bill Conroy

Phoenix, AZ

Purdue University is also known in the field of sonofusion or cold fusion, or socalled acoustic inertial cavitation. There has been heavy rivalry with UCLA's Seth Puttermann, who had already patented the principles in 1994.

Find out more about those at New Energy Times.

Somewhere there might be a connection with HHO/Brown's gas and the burning of salt water method of John Kanzius.

90% of scientists and researchers are convinced there are happening things involving bubbles in liquids, that demand further thorough investigation to be supported, whereas this used to be 10% after the Fleischman/Pons misreading of the found spectrum. So it shows how things can change suddenly. It seems the Navy is one of the best informed regarding new discoveries in this field, as it concerns cavity and cavities caused by propellers worry them for discovery by enemy ships.

HHO combined with steam has proven advantages for increased efficiency of fossil fuel combustion. Little HHO/steam mix is required, and tapping from the alternator is sufficient for that. But it will just keep a lawn mower of 3 HP going in idle. More volume output is required for better performance. Lawn mowers will stall most of the time however, simply because they use a two stroke combustion cycle instead of 4 stroke compression. So what happens due to ignition timing prior to the Top Dead Center of the piston, the piston gets thrown back, rather than forward. Luckily for car owners, this problem of knocking and pingling, is prevented from by the knocking sensors, that signal to the ECU to delay the ignition timing just enough to get forward leverage to the piston instead of backward. But do not be mistaken by stalling lawn mowers on HHO. Only if timing is modified, such engines will not stall, immediately. Also watch out for back firing, when timing has been adjusted, due to leaks in the valves, not closing properly. It might cost you not taking precautions with a flame arrestor.

EFIE for 20 tot 25% fuel economy gains, is well in reach with average HHO-units. Producing more might rather become counterproductive, then requiring EFIE-emulation. More fuel will be thrown in from the lambda pulse signals telling the ECU to apply a richer mix. Addition of steam will help further increased expansion and thus thrust/leverage from the compression.

But do not expect magic at this stage, without a major break through in other fields, simply because the likes of Stanley Meyer, anticipated on technologies to be added, that had never been tested, before applying patents. They could only add those technologies, like laser, into the patents, borrowing from existing proven technology, without having to proof the added value at all, for their specific application, and thus not being demanded to proof efficiency for economic viability.

That's where they trapped potential investors. But dont the likes developing PEM fuel cells, and Hot Fusion either, promising more than for what can be shown?

Ideally it is time, scientists and HHO-ers join together and look for hidden synergies, then there have been taking place phenomena concerning bubbles, that baffled scientists, leaving them without a clue of explanation.

So why not this particular bubbles, bombard with similar sound waves and maybe the sun will shine in those little jars. To be continued..

another fraud just what we need. If you look at the watt meter in the background it is bouncing up to 700 watts. The Stirling engine is rated at 500 watts max. the whole process is lossing energy. Jonh Kanzius won't replicate the experiment in a lab

NEXT!!!!!!

Is Sandia's claim of observed surplus measured energy compared to external power input in their Z-machine also a fraud? Seems Boyle Gay Lussac does not cover all there is confined as potential energy within a liquid-gass-solid state mix under high pressure. And for the same reason in physics handbooks, cavitation phenomena have been put aside decades ago, and the experts in the field of liquid state physics, still make exceptions for additional equations needed to be used for cavitations.

But I do not want to wake you up Vicini, simply because if you get the picture cleared up, you would be putting an end to the oil companies, and at this moment of the credit crunch in US investment banking, we would not want wiping out another sector, that is a genuine fraud.

Hi all, This idea of saving money on gas with a relatively cheap HHO (?) add-on has got a ton of people interested in the hardware that it takes. And many also are wondering if it is worth it. I personally don't know. I guess the jury is still out. Here is a some free plans and information I found while surfing around on the internet. Take a look! A lot of juicy information here. http://smacksboosters.110mb.com/Smack.pdf and Bob Boyce's ideas http://pesn.com/2007/09/29/9500450_BobBoyce_Electrolizer_Plans/d9.pdf You shouldn't have to buy plans if you want to try it. Fortunately I only drive about 5 miles to get to work so I don't worry about the price of gas too much, Otherwise I might build one and try it. The combustion is leaner after adding the HHO gas into the mix. So, here are some plans on You Tube to build an E F I E circuit board which fools your O2 sensor so that it don't up the gas input after you start burning the HHO mix. This is for vehiicles with fuel injection. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lw8MtfTx2cU&feature=related Some guys are pulsing the electricity going into unit with a small circuit board claiming that also helps with your mileage. I think there are plans for that board you can find on the internet if you do some searches. As I have stated, I'm not promoting these units. I have never actually seen one, but I see a lot of individuals are trying them. And I see a several small companiys have popped up selling the units and parts for them. I read here on this forum that some companys are using them on their semi's to save gas. Who knows maybe they will catch on. Don

the jury isn 't out. It back and they have spoken, its a fraud. Report new start ups to the FTC. If you attach a board toi the O@ curcuit you have done two things wrong. First, the O2 sensor is part of the emissions control loop and you could be subject to a $25,000 FINE FOR TAMPERING WITH IT. second, YOUR CARS WARRENTY IS NOW VOIDED.

Thanks and have a nice day.

Vicini,

You wrote:

FTC. If you attach a board toi the O@ curcuit you have done two things wrong. First, the O2 sensor is part of the emissions control loop and you could be subject to a $25,000 FINE FOR TAMPERING WITH IT. second, YOUR CARS WARRENTY IS NOW VOIDED.

There is one problem with this reply: anyone can buy an aftermarket Performance Chip to increase their HP potential that has a computerized automobile. However the second part of your statement is definitely true; you will void the manufacture's warrenty, but so will installing a legeal to buy Performance Chip!

Bill C.

some chips have been approved by the state of CA as acceptable, but only after lab tests. In the case of warrenty, again some things after lab tests will not void warrenties.

Vincini, I should have said as far as I am concerned, "the jury is still out" The vehicle that I was looking at installing it on is a fuel injected 6 cylinder "94 S-10. The warrantee has run out many years ago so that is not a problem. As far as the $25,000 fine goes, I doubt anyone would know what they were looking at even if they looked right at it. Anyway, I think that law was put in place because of pollution concerns so I doubt they would want to fine you after they realized the vehicle put out less emissions than when it was new! Plus the fact that as long as I have owned the truck over 12 years) no one has ever stopped me to inspect under the hood. Possibly if you owned a fairly new car that may be a concern but I personally would not worry about being fined. But hey, thanx for the "heads up" Don

are you saying that if i just add white vinnegar to distilled water you can get hho gas? what if i just use that mixture in the hho booster instead of using sodium hydroxide or potassium hydroxide with distilled water? do you think it would work? what if i use vinnegar with distilled water and KOH OR KaOH? will it produce more volume of hho gas? Do you think it is too dangerous to mix KOH, KaOH, vinnegar and distilled water together to produce hho gas and use it to aid combustion in my vehicle? I would like to try the mixture of vinnegar, distilled water and KaOH in my hho booster that i am making. I would like to use just about a quarter cup of distilled water, fill the rest with vinnegar, then add a table spoon of soduim hydroxide powder in my hho booster and see if it produces a larger amount of hho gas to increase my mpg and horse power.

If you are being serious let me just say that it would be a waste of time and vinegar and Lye. The Lye and the vinegar are doing the same job. The difference is, the Lye does a much better job as a catalyst. If you want to use vinegar don't use Lye. If you want to use Lye than don't use vinegar. You will see no greater outcome with vinegar+Lye than you would with adding more or less of either on there own. The more concentrated you mix of distilled water and catalyst, you get more current. As your current goes up, so does your gas production as well as the temperature which if not controlled will lead to failure. There are so many issues when it comes to making this stuff work. Lets not over complicate the simplest part...

urine is best, there is no such thing in the universe as HHO.

Agreed, It may not be the correct acronym. So if you have a simple short word or acronym to call the gas that is produced in these little "HHO generators" I will start using that.

However, there are many ridiculous terms jumping into the dictionary every day due to there overwhelming acceptance and use in society. It may just be a matter of time my friend.

What would be the correct acronym? Thanks

SMHO, stoicimetric mixture of Hydrogen and Oxygen

Outstanding, I love it. Thanks bud.

Phew! After reading all of this thread, I'm tempted to post anonymously...

At the risk of being chastised, I'll offer the following...

I have plans for a unit that's a bit more sophistocated in terms of electronic control than most of what you might see on youtube. I haven't built it yet, but supposedly, it consumes far less current and produces more HHO that the mason jar type boosters.

Some of the elements that come into play with the electrical theory involved here, specifically reasonable production at lower current draw are:

1. High voltage (several thousand volts) at high frequency 15KHz to 20KHz at the plates.

2. The vessel that contains the water (and plates) acts as the capacitor in an oscillator circuit. This is where the orthohydrogen and oxygen are generated.

3. There is also a torroid coil (generator coil) in the top of the vessel which acts as the inductor in the oscillator circuit.

4. The inductor voltage operates at a lower frequency - 16Hz to 25Hz. This is where the parahydrogen and oxygen are generated.

5. The separate electronic controls for both the capacitor and inductor allow for amplitude and pulse width adjustment in order to adjust the mix of parahydrogen and orthohydrogen to prevent precombustion (parahydrogen apparently burns slower than orthohydrogen)

The controls also include montoring of cylinder head temp in order to aid in determining proper gas mixture and preventing overheating.

As I said, I haven't built it yet, but the theory seems sound as far as the reduced current draw due to the oscillator design is concerned. That is to say, The documentation has given me reason enough to give it a try.

We'll see.

Okay there it is... Tear it up!

no need to tear it I just pass along to the FTC and let them tear you up. You are right, yous hould have posted as a guest.

Good luck.

vicini,

Slow down killer, "I have plans" means I have aquired plans, not "I'm selling plans"

Yes, I paid for and downloaded plans so that I could investigate for myself and reach my own conclusions. A few dollars is a small price to pay for the opportunity to research the electronics piece. I was intrigued by the oscillator concept. It is the only thing I've found that speaks to the energy in, energy out dilema that you keep spouting off about. Nobody is disputing the first law of thermodynamics. The challenge as concerns me, is to see if a more efficient means exists to perform the electrolosys. Since nobody that has actually used this particular approach is disputing that the efficiency is enhanced to the point that there is a net gain, then perhaps, if I wish to disprove these claims I should try it myself.

You'll forgive me if I don't take your word that it can't work... In the end I may end up taking a similar position to yours, but it will be based on my own findings.

It doesn't appear that you have any direct experience with this technology. If you really believe that there is no advancement to be made beyond conventional science and what you believe based on what you were taught in your extensive and I'm sure impressive education, then you might as well go flop whoppers, because there's nothing else to develop or discover. Science is complete, finite.

I'll try it for myself, thanks. Then, if I end up believing as you do, I will have my own experience to support my position.