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The Effect of Accelerating Toward a High-Gravity Body

05/18/2008 11:19 PM

Not long ago I watched a TV show which said that objects drawn into a black hole would first be ripped apart and stretched into a thin string a matter -- the idea being that the atoms comprising the portion of the body which is closest to the black hole are subject to greater gravitational pull than the atoms farther away from the black hole. This seems to comport with the fracturing of some objects as they are pulled toward large objects, such as the asteroid or comet which crashed into Saturn in 1994 but first broke into several large pieces. It intrigues me that there might be enough of a difference in gravity over such a short distance to do this, but at the same time I am puzzled and, frankly, a bit skeptical about it necessarily applying in all cases for the reasons I will give.

First, to whatever degree it influences the outcome, one must keep in mind that the more distant portions of the body are subject to not only the gravitational pull of the large celestial body, but are also accelerated by the tensile strength of the body with the portion closer to the pull of gravity helping to accelerate the rest of the body. I reckon that this matters a lot while the gravitational pull is not great enough to rip the body apart, but eventually becomes insignificant as the gravitational pull becomes massive. I initially speculated, regarding black holes, that this might be only in very close proximity to the black hole, but then when I consider Saturn and its relatively tiny gravity in comparison to a black hole, I realize that this process must begin much earlier, or at least when gravity is not nearly as intense as a black hole. That is something that I am trying to sort out and would appreciate any comments, such as ... what is the formula for calculating gravitational pull between two bodies, considering their masses and the distance between them (or their centers of gravity). I presume that there is one.

Another related issue in this puzzle is Einstein's theoretical maximum speed -- the speed of light -- and whether that velocity would be reached by the entire body BEFORE the point at which the body can be torn apart; if so, then there could be no further 'stretching', no matter HOW much the difference in gravitational pull, because the leading parts of the falling body can't move faster than the trailing parts to move away from them. And what is the effect of the increased mass of the falling body (my understanding being that with increased velocity the body attains increased mass, with mass approaching infinity as the speed of light is approached)? Does the increased mass of the falling body, especially in such close proximity, not begin to exert its own gravitational pull on its own parts which might be sufficent to counteract the 'stretching' effect of the acceleration toward the celestial body? Trying to understand such things freaks my mind a bit, so let me cut to the chase and start using a hypothetical case for us to discuss, with a few basic assumptions which I think are reasonable.

First, assume a human body is 'diving' toward a celestial body, with hands over the head and fingertips extended, for a total length of 8' from tip of fingers to toes.

Second, assume that the greatest stretching force is at the knuckles -- because they are closest to the celestial body and subject to more gravity -- which help to pull the rest of the body along behind it.

Third, assume a body weight of 150 pounds, and that the knuckles can pull 450 pounds of weight before being ripped from the hand; I have no idea how close to the maximum stress that might be, but with a world record clean and jerk of 586 pound, 450 is more than reasonable and we could possibly even go to 600 pounds (4x body weight).

Fourth, assume for the ease of calculations and discussion, that cross sections of the body are consistent from finger to toe.

That means that at the knuckles there are 3gs more due to acceleration than the average acceleration for the rest of the body, which I think would probably be represented at the mid-point -- about four feet away -- at least is the effect is linear (which it probably isn't). But my point is that if rate of acceleration increases at a rate of 3gs (NOT three 'times'*) for every four feet of travel, then in just a mile of travel the rate of acceleration would be 3,960 of what it was to start. But I guess a solution is really going to depend on finding a forumula for 'g', and possibly whether it is linear or not.

Now let's see what some folks think.

Bill Velek

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#1

Re: The Effect of Accelerating Toward a High-Gravity Body

05/19/2008 9:51 AM

I believe what you are describing at least in the first part of your post is called the Roche limit. Some of the formula's at this link may help you, although I am sure you can find lots more information on this.

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: The Effect of Accelerating Toward a High-Gravity Body

05/19/2008 10:15 AM

Thanks for the link; it looks very interesting, so I'll study it more closely when I have some time, and it may shed some light. However, from a very cursory view, it does not seem to deal with a few of the issues that are mentioned later in my post, including that the primary counter force to the gravitational pull of the celestial body is inertia, as opposed, for example, to centrifugal force for an orbiting body.

Bill Velek

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#3

Re: The Effect of Accelerating Toward a High-Gravity Body

05/19/2008 11:14 AM

Where is 'Jorrie' when needed?

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#4

Re: The Effect of Accelerating Toward a High-Gravity Body

05/19/2008 3:59 PM

You asked what we think, well I think:

That the meteorites falling towards Jupiter (or Saturn or any other large body) are falling apart due to friction and the consequent heat that follows. They literally explode due to the heat. Going close to a black hole you would not encounter an atmosphere so no friction from those type of gasses. You would mingle with all that other space dust that circles them but all that would travel with you at roughly the same speed so logically thinking no friction again.

I also think that comparing the gravity in or near a black hole, that is where normal physics start to alter and fail, our normal laws and calculations will not suffice to explain. We are after all talking about something that has the mass of 1000's of our sun and only occupy the space of a tennis ball. Even before you get close enough to see any of the promised events, you would be squashed to near nothing and only after that you may be stretched and strung out like a ribbon.

I think you went wrong in a very early stage of your conclusion namely where you sought to explain it all with concepts used to explain our normal world and science. The reason why us mere mortals loose the plot in these things is because it is not just normal science, it is astro physics which is like rocket science to most. (me included)

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#18
In reply to #4

Re: The Effect of Accelerating Toward a High-Gravity Body

05/20/2008 8:24 AM

Agreed. It is not possible to compare the gravitational effects of a normal planetary body, no matter how large, to a black hole and its surrounding event horizon. Also, if a person were being drawn by gravity towards a black hole, the chances of being incinerated by the ultra-hot disc of rotating gas and dust around the event horizon are infinitely more than being dismembered by gravity. That disc of rapidly rotating matter gets hot enough to emit X-rays. I believe that most of these concepts of "being stretched like a strand of cooked spaghetti" and so on are just poor illustrations of things we don't understand. Physicists develop equations and formulas to explain these things, whereas ordinary concepts totally fail. It's like trying to explain why Quarks can't exit the inside of subatomic particles, or where any "extra dimensions" are hiding by using common analogies.

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#5

Re: The Effect of Accelerating Toward a High-Gravity Body

05/19/2008 10:31 PM

I think this is a subject that most people can only speculate about, and you have raised some good points to stretch the ordinary mind, or should one say falling object. They say that gravity is a distortion of time and space, there is also another situation to consider, if gravity acts to attract masses together with the larger mass being the winner, and if matter distorts space then so should the falling body distort a area around itself? And that field should, you would think, hold it together. BUT does time play some part? Like you stated, you would think that inertia of increasing velocity would be conveyed to the rest of the mass being held together by its own area of gravity? But if time is distorted does the message get through? Will the leading edge start to accelerate and with time being distorted cause a delay in the rest following? Or does the local gravitational area of the object get distorted by the stronger field, and stretched? I suspect the latter.

Regards JD,

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#6

Re: The Effect of Accelerating Toward a High-Gravity Body

05/19/2008 10:56 PM

There was a recent TV program dealing with the "ripped apart" phenomenon that you describe at the start of your post.

The program went on to explain that what you described is what we would see from our frame of reference. They summised that from the frame of reference of the object moving into the black hole, the observation would be different and that the object would still be intact at the "event horizon".

As was said earlier, it's beyond rocket science and at this point of time we mere mortals can but theorise about what happens.

Imagine though when we have achieved an understanding of the effects in play. Just like the progressive discoveries that led to harnessing that natural phenomenon of electricity and its interaction with magnetism, our collective knowledge will (eventually) provide us with means to harness the energies and speeds encountered in those black holes and their interactions with gravity.

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#7

Re: The Effect of Accelerating Toward a High-Gravity Body

05/19/2008 11:10 PM
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#8
In reply to #7

Re: The Effect of Accelerating Toward a High-Gravity Body

05/19/2008 11:14 PM

Sorry frankd20, unknowingly I posted same link.

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#9

Re: The Effect of Accelerating Toward a High-Gravity Body

05/20/2008 2:44 AM

Interesting topic

Just to clarify... I'm thinking you were referring to the Shoemaker-Levey comet that crashed into Jupiter?

HC

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#10
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Re: The Effect of Accelerating Toward a High-Gravity Body

05/20/2008 3:06 AM

Yes, you are right.

In recent history we do not know any comet which crashed on the Saturn

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#15
In reply to #10

Re: The Effect of Accelerating Toward a High-Gravity Body

05/20/2008 5:09 AM

Around the early 50's there were some comet crashes!!!!!!!!!!

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#11
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Re: The Effect of Accelerating Toward a High-Gravity Body

05/20/2008 3:12 AM

Yes, Hellcat, but I couldn't remember if it was a comet or an asteroid; I should have checked. Also, I thought it broke up into pieces long before it entered the atmosphere to encounter friction as mentioned by another. Again, I should have checked.

I haven't had a chance to see if I can figure out the formulas in the link about the Roche limit. But I have found this site -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole -- and learned that the term for what I've described is "spaghettification".

Cheers.

Bill Velek

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#13
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Re: The Effect of Accelerating Toward a High-Gravity Body

05/20/2008 4:35 AM

It was a comet, which was discovered after it broke in to 21 pieces. The back calculations showed it was comet captured by Jupiter.

Scientist predicted exact timings of crash of each piece, which happened from 16th July 1994. The crashes took place on the invisible side of the Jupiter, but the traces of impact of each piece on Jupiter were observed after the locations faced the earth due to fast rotation of Jupiter.

The photographs CDROMs are available with NASA at http://www2.jpl.nasa.gov/sl9/news83.html

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#17
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Re: The Effect of Accelerating Toward a High-Gravity Body

05/20/2008 7:56 AM

I was a comet and it did disintigrate before interacting with the atmosphere. Tidal forces acting upon it over a relatively (not relativistic) short distance were sufficient to break it up. Of course, this was a fairly loosly bound object.

Read the old Larry Niven short story Neutron Star. It describes what you are aiming at I think.

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#12

Re: The Effect of Accelerating Toward a High-Gravity Body

05/20/2008 4:19 AM

NO! NO! I don't really want to go there Bill...........I'm quite happy where I am.

This evidently is a black hole in a feeding frenzy.

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#14

Re: The Effect of Accelerating Toward a High-Gravity Body

05/20/2008 4:37 AM

In the days of vaudeville in the UK there was a comedian, "Billy" Russell. He said in one of his jokes, talking about his wife......"it's really remarkable how far the human skin will stretch without bursting".............I'm not really keen in finding that out.

You could always test your stretching theories on this!!!!!!

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#16

Re: The Effect of Accelerating Toward a High-Gravity Body

05/20/2008 5:25 AM

The tidal force increases as the inverse cube of the distance from the gravitating body. It might not require a whole lot of force to pull apart a comet such as the one that crashed into Jupiter, especially if it consists of several pieces weakly stuck together by their mutual gravity.

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#19

Re: The Effect of Accelerating Toward a High-Gravity Body

05/20/2008 9:11 AM

Don't worry about it Billy...............if you haven't got your space suit and thermals on:-

POOF.........to the dust shall you return.

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#20

Re: The Effect of Accelerating Toward a High-Gravity Body

10/17/2008 8:18 PM

Lets think of another quirk since everything here is hypothetical anyway :

If the center of a black hole,the "singularity" is symmetrical,then the exact center of the black hole singularity would in effect, have a "zero gravity" region where the gravitational pull from all directions are equal. There could also be other dimensions trapped there,unaffected by the black hole,per se,but bounded by it's gravity.

We (our dimension, universe,etc) could also exist inside of a giant black hole, and we would not even know.

Thoughts on this?

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#21

Re: The Effect of Accelerating Toward a High-Gravity Body

10/17/2008 8:40 PM

Ok, let's assume a symmetrical black hole singularity with a center of zero g.A small object is sucked into the black hole,on one side or the other.That side now has more gravity, and the center will shift towards it.This unbalances the whole structure, and the unbalance builds as matter is pulled from the weak side.The imbalance continues to grow until the center of the whole singularity has shifted, and the echoes have settled,like waves on a still pond.If the black hole is rotating, it will soon balance out.

What if the center is hollow, like a basketball? Can space time even exist in the midst of such concentrated gravity,would it not be pulled from the center, against the "shell" The center would be free of space time,no?

But what if the singularity is like a ball of string, (since all entering objects are "stringy-fied" on the way in).Somewhere in the center may be the source of all strings that comprise our universe on the quantum level, and the vibrations may be the oscillations from an unstable black hole singularity.

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