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What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/16/2008 1:39 PM

I am a 61 year old, middle income retired business woman.

I have seen a home phone go from a "party line" where you actually shared a phone line with other people (not known to you). When you picked up a phone and heard someone talking you hung up and tried later. We had a TV when I was about 11 before that just a radio. TV had very limited programs and went off the air I believe about 1 am. A computer was a big room in a company, no one had a "personal" computer. Now look what we have.

Look at our advances in the medical field, home building products even just a refrigerator.....

Why haven't we had these "great" changes in the automobile? With all our technological advances why haven't they advanced in the auto industry. Any chance they are being blocked by "oil company" influences. After all, if you study history the reason our trains did not advance was because oil companies purchased land and did other underhanded things to stop the advance of railway systems.

I truly find it hard to believe we do not have a better system.

Engineers what is the reason for this lack of advance...is it truly that hard?

We have been "made" to be dependent on oil now they tell us it is "our fault" we use too much oil.

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#1

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/16/2008 2:12 PM

Well, conspiracy theories sound nice, but I have seen too many bad ones that I have been a long known skeptic on such theories.

However, I do have some observations. First, the Big Three drove the market until the mid 1970s. Changes were mostly cosmetic and people bought into it in a big way. Why change? Then the Japanese got their first toe in and changed that. So, innovation really didn't take off until 1980 and beyond. Up to that point we simply got what the auto manufactures told us we wanted.

Another issue is the time it takes to take a concept from cradle to production. That cycle can take up to 8 years back then. So the time it takes to produce breaking technologies is slow.

We also set up an infrastructure that favors the status quo. Service stations, fueling stations, and aftermarket parts are a big business. Changing that is no simple task. So, things move slow.

Another driver is now the customer. Right now that market is slowly changing and demanding changes in fuel economy and vehicle types such as larger SUVs and vans. Recent changes in fuel are driving another change and manufactures are scrambling to address those needs.

Big business moves slowly. Huge industries move even slower. We are seeing the huge industry respond, but it is slow and there are a lot of hurdles to clear to get there. The real engine in this is consumer demand.

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#2

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/16/2008 3:16 PM

lets see, power windows, air conditioning, elctronic ignition, fuel injection, variable valve timing, gone from 20% efficency to 40%, air bags, seat belts, stability control, satillite. Top speeds from 100 mph to 280 mph. Death rates lower..... What more do you want?

Meanwhile the phone has not improved in speed, it isn't any safer and with potential brain tumors and crashes while talking, even less safe. Do you even use 10% of the features an phone has?

I think you are just trying to blame someone for your choices....

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#3

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/16/2008 3:38 PM

There have been advances in automobile design. Just not so much in fuel economy. Safety, reliability, comfort and functionality have all been the "hot topics" of the last few decades and so were treated with priority. Gas has been (generally speaking) cheap and plentiful. Now economy is the new priority and I (somewhat optimistically) expect within a few years it will be well addressed. Gonna hurt until then though.

And not to veer too far off topic, but in the US I hear all too often the counter-argument that we should be drilling into the known reserves in Alaska, offshore, etc. "If we just did that, gas would be cheap again!" It's long been among the battle cries of one US policital party. I can't disagree more with such short-sighted foolishness. And no, not from an environmentalist standpoint but from other far more practical ones.

Sorry...I'm putting the soapbox away now.

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#4
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Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/16/2008 3:53 PM

My wife who owns horses that I am financially responsible for, gets my favorite tirade from time to time. I specifically list the thousands, upon thousands of beautiful modern advances, that we all enjoy and sometimes take completely for granted, that have come into existence purely for the reason that some really intelligent people have come up with, with the one driving force behind them---They were so utterly sick and tired of having to depend on horses for transportation!

Joyce--I do think I know what you are stating, though and I share that same emotion/frustration.

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#13
In reply to #4

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/17/2008 12:29 AM

AND there are LESS injuries per mile with CARS - Horses are dangerous.

Responsible for at least 4 of my concussions :) cows and sports took care of the rest.

rcb

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#5
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Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/16/2008 4:45 PM

Actually, you are making a very complex subject way too simple.

There is good reason to believe that gas prices will drop if we open up reserves to drilling today and that drop would actually come within weeks.

The reason for the drop would be due to a shift in the Futures market trading prices if such an announcement were made.

It is speculation as to what that drop would be, but chances are it would.

I am still in favor for developing new energy sources, but taking off the tourniquet on drilling in the mean time can at least allow some relief and makes sense to me.

Of course, instead we can go to the beach and watch the big Chinese mosquito sucking up the oil just off shore. Should be entertaining, eh?

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#6

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/16/2008 5:39 PM

There have been many advances in the automobile just not the one you are looking for. Because up until the last two to three years gas was cheap. There was no need to spend money on developing alternative fuels that would have cost more to produce than what we could pump out of the ground and refine.

"After all, if you study history the reason our trains did not advance was because oil companies purchased land and did other underhanded things to stop the advance of railway systems."

At the time of the trains hay day there was only one oil company. Standard Oil early crude was refined into kerosene for lamps. People chose to use cars as a means of transportation as it gave them more freedom then trains. Standard Oil just found another use for their oil as the electric light had started to replace the kerosene lamp.

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#9
In reply to #6

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/16/2008 8:44 PM

So you do not think the oil and car companies have anything to do with the mess we have now? Think Again

Killed by General Motors

What Happened to the Streetcars?

By PATRICK IRELAN

By 1900, streetcars powered by electricity served the people in towns and cities throughout the United States. Unlike the buses that eventually replaced them, streetcars emitted no exhaust fumes to poison the air. They were also quieter than buses, provided a smoother ride, and were more durable.

But by 1955, most of the streetcars had vanished. What happened to them? The usual answer is that people preferred to purchase and drive their own cars. But if that's true, why do so many people go to work by subway, elevated, or commuter trains today? Do you really want to risk your life on Chicago's Eisenhower Expressway at 7:00 AM?

One of my great uncles worked as a motorman on the streetcars in Ottumwa, Iowa. When the streetcar company converted to buses in the late 1920's, Uncle Frank became a bus driver, and at least some of the people who had ridden on his streetcar then road on his bus. Did those people prefer a noisy, uncomfortable, foul-smelling bus to a quiet, comfortable, odor-free streetcar? Who would? Nonetheless, people continued to ride the buses because that was the only mass transit available.

This brings us to Bradford Snell's American Ground Transport: A Proposal for Restructuring the Automobile, Truck, Bus, and Rail Industries. (U.S. Government Printing Office, Washington, D.C.: 1974) Snell presented his study to the U.S. Senate's Subcommittee on Antitrust and Monopoly, the Committee on the Judiciary, on February 26, 1974. At that time, Snell served as assistant counsel to the subcommittee.

His report displays vast research and provides detailed evidence of his findings, including FBI and Justice Department documents, reports from other federal departments, confidential interviews with Justice Department officials, documents obtained from General Motors and other corporations, and much more. The text contains 76 pages, followed by 27 pages of endnotes containing 500 citations in all.

"This is a study of the social consequences of monopoly," the report begins. "It shows that excessive economic concentration can restructure society for corporate ends."

"This is not a study of malevolent or rapacious executives," Snell continues. The pages that follow then describe, in detail, the actions of malevolent and rapacious executives. The study reveals how monopoly has adversely affected every major form of ground transportation in the United States. But in this article, I will limit the subject only to streetcars and interurban trains.

By the mid-1920's, Snell says, General Motors and other auto companies had run out of new buyers for their cars, but GM found many ways to solve this problem. One of these solutions focused on electric-powered streetcars and interurban railcars.

In 1932, GM began buying streetcar systems. It then replaced the streetcars with buses built by GM itself. Finally, it sold the bus companies to private or public transit systems, employing contractual agreements that required the new owners to buy only GM buses when the old ones wore out.

The streetcars in Kalamazoo and Saginaw, Michigan, and in Springfield, Ohio, disappeared first. But criticism from the American Transit Association caused GM to look for other means to achieve the same ends.

"In 1936," Snell writes, "it [GM] combined with the Omnibus Corp. in engineering the tremendous conversion of New York City's electric streetcar system to GM buses." This enormous project took only eighteen months. Prior to this event, New York's trolleys had, in combination, formed ". . . the world's largest streetcar network . . ."

But these exploits only served as practice sessions for General Motors. In 1936, GM and Greyhound executives created National City Lines, Inc. (NCL), a holding company that acted merely as a front for GM's grandest scheme of all. "During the following 14 years General Motors, together with Standard Oil of California, Firestone Tire, and two other suppliers of bus-related products, contributed more than $9 million to this holding company for the purpose of converting electric transit systems in 16 states to GM bus operations."

Once these systems had been converted, NCL continued to operate them or sold them in the traditional manner. In either case, these systems had to buy buses, tires, lubricants, and fuel from only the companies that funded and controlled NCL.

National City Lines and its allies went on to create two subsidiaries to help NCL complete its ambitious projects: Pacific City Lines (PCL) and American City Lines (ACL). Together, NCL, PCL, and ACL destroyed the Pacific Electric Railway, the electric-powered interurban system for metropolitan Los Angeles. They also destroyed the Los Angeles Railway, the city's streetcar system. Over 3000 railcars and hundreds of miles of track went into the scrap heap.

"By 1949, General Motors had been involved in the replacement of more than 100 electric transit systems with GM buses in 45 cities . . ." And, according to Snell, General Motors didn't really care whether these bus systems succeeded or failed, for it ultimately hoped to replace all transit systems with automobiles.

Inevitably, all this buying and selling attracted the attention of the United States Department of Justice. On April 9, 1947, Attorney General Tom C. Clark presented indictments to nine companies and seven corporate executives for violating the Sherman Anti-Trust Act of 1890.

The corporations included National City Lines, American City Lines, Pacific City Lines, Standard Oil Company of California, Federal Engineering Corporation, Phillips Petroleum Company, General Motors Corporation, Firestone Tire and Rubber Company, and Mack Manufacturing Corporation. (The charges against American City Lines were dropped during the trial because it was indistinguishable from National City Lines.)

The seven executives were E. Roy Fitzgerald of NCL, Foster G. Beamsley of NCL, H. C. Grossman of General Motors, Henry C. Judd of Standard Oil and Federal Engineering Corporation, L. R. Jackson of Firestone, B. F. Stradley of Phillips Petroleum, and A. M. Hughes of Phillips Petroleum. (Federal Rules Decisions, Volume 7, page 393)

Although it may be greedy and immoral, it's not against the law to buy a trolley system, convert it to buses, and then sell or operate it. But it is against the law for a group of companies to buy and sell transit systems, employing sales contracts that force the new owners to purchase buses, tires, lubricants, and fuel from only certain specified companies. Such a practice amounts to a conspiracy in restraint of trade, which violates the Sherman Anti-Trust Act. The word "conspiracy" is often used in connection with Snell's report. For my purposes, I am using that word only as it applies to the conspiracy in restraint of trade as mentioned above.

In April of 1949, with Judge William J. Campbell presiding, a federal jury in Chicago returned a verdict of guilty in the case of United States v. National City Lines, Inc., et al. Subsequently, Snell relates, the court fined General Motors $5000. It also fined H. C. Grossman, the treasurer of GM, the sum of $1. I don't know why the fines were so small, although I could make a number of guesses, none of which would flatter Judge Campbell.

"Despite its criminal conviction," Snell writes, "General Motors continued to acquire and dieselize electric transit properties through September of 1955. By then, approximately 88 percent of the nation's electric streetcar network had been eliminated." GM fended off any attempts to make it comply with the stipulations of the 1949 court decision.

A number of people eventually challenged Snell's report. A typical example is "The Conspiracy Revisited" by Van Wilkins, which appeared in the summer 1995 issue of The New Electric Railway Journal.

In his article, Wilkins reminds the reader that in United States v. National City Lines, Inc., et al., the conspirators were not found guilty of attempting to destroy the nation's streetcar systems. "Rather, punishment was handed down for violating anti-trust laws by conspiring to monopolize the sale of buses, tires, and gasoline."

Wilkins then proceeds to refute Snell's 1974 report by insisting that GM, et al., merely took advantage of already-existing economic weaknesses in streetcar systems. The conspirators also capitalized, he argues, on the preference of American commuters for the automobile.

In the autumn 1995 issue of The New Electric Railway Journal, Snell delivered a scorching response. A few samples:

"The electric streetcar, contrary to Van Wilkins' incredibly naive whitewash, did not die a natural death: General Motors killed it. . . ."

". . . In 1922, according to GM's own files, Sloan [Alfred P. Sloan, Jr., president of GM] established a special unit within the corporation which was charged, among other things, with the task of replacing America's electric railways with cars, trucks, and buses."

". . . According to U.S. Department of Justice documents, officials of GM visited banks used by railways in Philadelphia, Dallas, Kansas City and other locations, and, by offering them millions in additional deposits, persuaded their rail clients to convert to motor vehicles. . . ."

"And where rail systems were publicly owned and could not be bought, . . . GM bought their officials instead, according to FBI files, providing complimentary Cadillacs to those who converted to buses."

Other critics of Snell's report have argued that, for various reasons, buses would have replaced streetcars even if GM had not done the work itself. This may be true, but we'll never know, will we? It's definitely true that GM didn't want to wait for the streetcars to vanish by themselves. The company aggressively went about the business of buying and destroying streetcar systems from New York to Los Angeles.

In 1936, over 40,000 streetcars were in service throughout the United States. By 1955, that number had dropped to 5000.

Some cities refused to contribute to the devastation. San Francisco, for example, held on to its streetcar system, and that system still serves the city today. Old streetcars operate on Market Street for the tourists. Local residents ride new cars on old routes.

Elsewhere, cities clogged with automobile traffic are still trying to repair the damage created long ago. Dallas, for example, is building a light-rail system to partially replace its lost streetcars.

Sometime in the present century, the world will run out of extractable petroleum. If someone finds a way to keep automobiles on the road, they will continue to harvest 50,000 deaths per year. Simultaneously, it will become increasingly expensive to maintain the expressways that now require continual repair. Is that really what we want?

Get ready for a trolley ride. It could be a rough trip.

Patrick Irelan is a retired high-school teacher. He is the author of A Firefly in the Night (Ice Cube Press) and Central Standard: A Time, a Place, a Family (University of Iowa Press). You can contact him at pwirelan43@yahoo.com.

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#10
In reply to #9

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/16/2008 9:15 PM

Great post! Here are a couple of thoughts:

"why do so many people go to work by subway, elevated, or commuter trains today?" Mainly due to economy. Operating, parking and maintaining a car in large cities is very, very, very expensive. For me, in a small urban setting, I set my own schedule and the cost is cheap (I have my own garage and we have a free parking lot everywhere I go).

"Simultaneously, it will become increasingly expensive to maintain the expressways that now require continual repair." 95%+ of wear and tear on a road is due to heavy commercial truck traffic. Passenger car wear on the roads is almost negligible. I would love to see more trains pick up the load. However, to be competitive in business requires a lot of overnight deliveries. Trains are at a disadvantage there, but for basic long distance ground transport, their cost can't be beat when time is not an element.

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#15
In reply to #9

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/17/2008 1:36 AM

The best part was when GM went begging to the State of California for money to pass CARB requirements. The state said sure right after you pay to replace our public transit system.

Henry Ford started our auto issues when he was arguing with the government over (I think) taxes. He basically told the government if they keep it up he will give the cars away and make his money off the parts. It costs less to make parts that don't fail on time. There is nothing benign in our car companies, business is war and what they say and what they do are not the same. For years you could steal a GM car with a screwdriver. Why fix an issue when you get $800 for a replacement pot metal part made in the millions and possibly a whole new car paid for by everyone that had insurance.

Brad

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#17
In reply to #9

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/17/2008 8:02 AM

I will tell you what killed the street car. It is no big secret, it is not a conspiracy. The damn things were dirty, smelly overcrowded and inconvienent. Yes inconvienent, just try carrying home a weeks worth of groceries on a freaking streetcar. The world is not out to get you, the CIA did not kill Kennedy, The world is not flat and yes dear hearts We did send men to the moon. Grow up and try to spend your time looking for solutions to problems instead of listening to the multitude of whack jobs out there that have a PC.

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#19
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Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/17/2008 8:50 AM

Have you visited Boston? Everyone uses the "T" system. They pay 300 and up to park their cars which they do not use very often. These are people who make very high incomes. I rented apartments in Boston about 10 years ago and the rents ranged from $1000 - $5000 per month some even more and these people used the "T"

Have you taken a Bus lately or been to a bus terminal yet people use these systems.

Have a nice day.

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#25
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Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/17/2008 10:13 AM

Not to throw a too wet a blanket on your "T" point - The reason they use it in Boston is its an old antique congested city with 6 way flashing yellows among other traffic nasties.

I'd move or ride the "T" Also.

In fact I did move

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#18
In reply to #9

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/17/2008 8:34 AM

HI JOYCE, Very interesting and educative article by you. First of all let me introduce to you I am from Mumbai India retired Mechanical Engineer. We in Mumbai had Street Cars which are known here Trams installed by Britisher long time back.It was considered as poor man's mode of transport as minimum fare was only Rs.0.06/- (today 1 $=Rs.40/-). It was slow mode of transport but most economical. I remember for going to School we used to jump in moving Tram and jump out near to School.But today Tram has been withdrawn some 40 years back with lot of fun fare. Arguments against Tram were that it is slow, occupies space in small streets, blocks faster traffic of cars and buses. To-day we all realise here it was big mistake as minimum fare in bus is Rs.3/- poor people avoid buses. Only one city in India still runs Trams that is Kolkatta. In between city transport imported for trial run some Trolley Buses which were running on Electric Power but unfortunately they were declared as uneconomical and were discontinued.May be there were local GM s here too. Suresh Sharma.

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#59
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Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/18/2008 12:06 PM

"Unlike the buses that eventually replaced them, streetcars emitted no exhaust fumes to poison the air."

How come every one assumes because it runs on electric there is no pollution. The electricity has to be produced and coal or oil burning power plants pollute.

The trolley was tied to track, buses gave the the transportation company the ability to pick routes that were more productive for them. Did not involve a stone walling bureaucracy to get approval for new tracks to be laid in the streets.

It has always been the practice of business men to manipulate the markets for their best interest they got caught chance you take if your manipulation is illegal. Standard Oil paid for it in having it monopoly broken up.

Passenger trains have ran from Miami to New York all the time. Government has in the pass bailed them out of financial difficulties. People choose other means of transportation. Oil companies and car manufactures my have made the choice easier but we choose.

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#7

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/16/2008 7:40 PM

In places all over this world the problem has been dealt with using public transportation... but somehow not the US....

Some how, and I am not really sure why or how, we Americans have decided that big cars and cheap oil are some kind of right.

In Europe where fuel has been expensive for years, many cars use diesel engines which get twice the mileage (or more) of an American made car with a gas engine, but we Americans did not like diesel and regular gas was cheap so why bother with it.

In the rest of the world cars are much smaller. But in Texas everyone drives a pickup or a Suburban. Didn't matter that those big vehicles were not necessary for most. Gas was cheap so why not.

There was no conspiracy by the oil or the car companies. They gave the American people exactly what they wanted. You want to find the source of the conspiracy, look at yourself, and your neighbors. You were never "made" to be dependant, you chose to be and your choices drove the market.

Advances have occurred in the auto business, advances that made cars even more powerful, rather than more fuel efficient. Because that is what America wanted...

Oh, and just for full disclosure, I work for one of those evil oil companies, and I am really tired of people accusing me and my colleagues of being greedy and evil. The people I work with work their butts off trying to keep your needs met.

We miss dance recitals, and our wives birthdays, ball games, and school plays, to go to countries that end in "stan", or places where people are shooting, or out in the middle of the gulf of Nigeria, just to meet your energy needs....

Oh, and just to be even more pointed, if we Americans did not spend every dime we make, (mostly on stuff made in China) and actually saved a bit of money, and actually bothered to be prepared for the occasional unexpected expense, none of this would be the crisis it has become...

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#11
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Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/16/2008 11:52 PM

We agree about one thing - the actions DO NOT rise to the LEGAL level of conspiracy.

It has been self serving and destructive to our Nation -

For a political / Ethical / discussion we should have a different forum.

I know some oil patch folks, have made some money there myself. The guy on the ground is not responsible for the actions of the EXECUTIVE branch.

Just like us Nam vets were not making policy that killed the wrong folks, you are not responsible for what the front office does.

There is a GROUP of problems - Let us solve the engineering ones here.

Be Well

rcb

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#20
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Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/17/2008 9:03 AM

Hi my reason for starting this was because this is, from what I understand a forum of engineers. My question is Why haven't our engineers been able to design a much better engine is the technology for this really not available? When it comes to what runs our cars. I cannot believe we have not evolved beyond "oil." Or at the very least a much more efficient running engine. My husband drives a big rig (tractor trailer) they get 6 - 8 miles per gallon and these are 2007 trucks. Can this be possible that the technology cannot do better? I have read that there were cars that ran on steam etc.. not saying this is the way to go but isn't there .. something ... Have a nice day Joyce

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#22
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Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/17/2008 9:27 AM

Hello Joyce1947,

The efficiency has went up(a little), so has the bells and whistles. Net gain 0.

We know 50-75% of the energy goes out as heat, other than a turbo to increase performance not efficiency I have seen nothing done to use it. (the VW bug heater doesn't count water heaters are equivalent)

Gas has changed considerably and not always for the better.

Higher efficiency can be had at the exchange for higher NOXs.

Material science has done wonders but I haven't seen the gain except performance in cars. (hybrids are the exception).

I've repeatedly seen things like ultra capacitors, and hydrogen reformers that should be a major change not fade away but turn into a vacuum. The odd thing is I've seen nothing in the peer reviews of it being a failure, published that someone else didn't get the same results, it just seems to vaporize.

You have stirred my curiosity so I'm now going to do some more digging.

Brad

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#24
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Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/17/2008 9:54 AM

Thank you for looking into this. Joyce

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#47
In reply to #22

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/17/2008 3:01 PM

Here is one part of the problem -

Engineers HAVE solved these problems REPEATEDLY -

START with these links - Ovshinsky is Engineer - problem was GM



Read / Watch Both videos for Electric car issues.
The inventor is on the first one.

Video Link this text comment is from
Ovshinsky Battery story

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eq2D_Ts5B5g&NR=1

Nimh battery inventor - control sold to GM who sold it to Texaco who sued Toyota to keep them from using it.

Video Link this text comment is from -
GM EV1 story

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FB1iKYgKSqo&feature=related

After GM goons confiscated Bob's beloved EV1 oil-free plug-in car, Bob decided to build an even better one, using the AC-150, the successor drivetrain to the EV1's pioneering inductive 3-phase brushless motor-controller.

The original Thundersky LiCo batteries had a failure rate of 20%; the other 80% are working properly, but Thundersky refuses to honor any warranty and has not replaced the bad cells.

Forced to find other cells, Bob contacted Peak Lithium, which has LiFeP chemistry (3.2v), a step on the way to LiFePTi (2.3v).

NOTE THIS ++++++++++++++++++++++ BELOW
How much better to have access to Nickel Metal Hydride non-toxic batteries; but Chevron refuses to release them to individual converters or to small manufacturers, claiming that no order is "large enough". But prior to Chevron's 2002 lawsuit, Toyota had a functioning NiMH production line, churning out quantities of inexpensive, long-lasting NiMH batteries still working in the Toyota RAV4-EV pictured in the driveway. (less) Added: October 26, 2007

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#48
In reply to #47

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/17/2008 3:42 PM

Thank you for this information but doesn't this sort of prove that the technology is out there and has actually been invented BUT buried by the "corporate" world who are afraid of loosing profits?

Joyce

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#52
In reply to #48

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/17/2008 4:36 PM

Yes - that is why Panacea is a NON-PROFIT in Australia -

They are working with a University there to do testing so some of the folks here will recognize there are other answers and tell the Boss to use them - or design them into current projects and products in ways that SAVE MONEY for the company - who will continue to use it - and spread the word.

When the management ASKS the ENGINEER "will this really work" and is told "Snake Oil " - management will not try -

That is why these discussions are useful on boards like this - the Engineer has to KNOW that they can use "non standard" solutions that do WORK -

I have an obsession - and will build it -

but along the way realized we can REDUCE our NATIONAL fuel consumption about 25% in less than 12 Months - for about $300 per car -

Hydroxy and additives ( which have to change as the gas changes ) DO WORK

I report real current experience - every time I pull up to the pump - I verify it is working in my vehicles.

Some folks here get upset when they are told they are wrong - but still will NOT try TESTING themselves - and when they tell others it DOES NOT work - they are part of the problem.

I can not help them - but only point out to those who are quiet - THEY can test -

and see results ( good or bad ) at the pump.

Several of us are talking to the Political side - some progress may occur - One Senator is waiting for a demonstration on vehicles they control - and may be willing to speak out if it is dramatic enough.

Back to Work-

Be Well

rcb

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#100
In reply to #48

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

07/03/2008 2:40 AM

Joyce I agree with you I have always felt that way too I am 50 and have seen alot. Its All About the money.

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#50
In reply to #47

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/17/2008 4:13 PM

That is history. Batteries are no longer the problem to acquire. Chevron's grip on that market has been nullified. Vectrix has no problems getting batteries of NiMH or Lithium for their vehicles.

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#62
In reply to #20

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/18/2008 3:43 PM

The engineers did what they were asked they designed for preformance not for fuel economy. If the American public had wanted fuel savings they would have not demanded all those big SUVs. Now that the cost of fuel has started to increase I am sure you will see better fuel milage on future cars. Don't expect to see them at the dealers tomorrow though.

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#63
In reply to #62

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/18/2008 4:38 PM

Google for Vincent Carman and hydraulic transmission - 80's tech ready now

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#27
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Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/17/2008 10:38 AM

We miss dance recitals, and our wives birthdays, ball games, and school plays, to go to countries that end in "stan", or places where people are shooting, or out in the middle of the gulf of Nigeria, just to meet your energy needs....

Just a casual observation from another globe trotter for the establishment in the good ole USA. I don't recall anyone volunteering you to go overseas ex pat.

So while I agree about the whine- don't.

I gave away my birthdays many years ago. I am/was compensated for that career choice. I assume you are too.

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#28
In reply to #27

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/17/2008 10:45 AM

Sorry, didn't mean to whine.. I do love doing what I do, although it does wear me out at times. My apologies.

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#32
In reply to #28

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/17/2008 11:25 AM

no worries as you will tell from my subsequent posts I'm a whiner too LOL ;-)

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#29
In reply to #27

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/17/2008 11:14 AM

Just to let you know. My 18 year old son was "volunteered" to go to Afghanistan and he went.. no questions asked and was not given the "big" money compensations that corporations are given to go to meet "my" energy needs by going over seas.

When he asked for "soap, deodorant, tooth paste and tooth brush along with many other.. everyday needs.. I did not whine to the government I sent the items not only for him but other men in his army group.

You seem to be missing the point. Why don't we have other choices is there truly no other way. Is it impossible for our engineer's to develop an engine that is efficient enough to at least get 100 miles per gallon, are there alternatives for our factories to run on other than "oil"...

You seem to think I am complaining whining. I am "asking". Also I worked two jobs for 6 years that is 80 hours a week to bring up 4 children without whining... just something I had to do to keep the home we lived in.

I wore sandals even in winter so my children had shoes and boots.. not a big deal just did what I had to do. I believe "we" can do better just not sure why we have not ..

I never ran to the government. I just think the technology is out there but for some reason it is just.......left in limbo........

Have a nice day

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#33
In reply to #29

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/17/2008 11:25 AM

Thank you and your son for his service to our country!!!

I don't mean that for personal gain (i.e., oil), I mean that from my heart.

To answer your question:

The engineer builds what the customer demands. It is that simple. When enough people raise their voices, corporations get in gear and engineers get busy.

Wait. With gas prices as they are that chorus is beginning to sound and the wheels are starting to turn.

It may seem slow, but 500 years ago things were orders of magnitude slower in gestation. Well, babies still take 9 months, give or take.

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#35
In reply to #29

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/17/2008 11:34 AM

Did your son volunteer for his service?

if so he agreed to the contract as i did and then have again as a civilian. While I pray he is safe I have no issue in him serving his country as a volunteer person. His choice.

every choice has consequences - thats why most kids have parents - to teach them that rather than blaming everyone else for their issue and circumstance.

I'm not accusing you of that in any way ( just to be clear )

Secondly - many technology advances have occurred and I have no issue with questions. In addition most of my responses aren't even directed at your question but rather some of the stuff it has generated. certainly No disrespect intended-

I have also recently spent some time inco Afghanistan and Pakistan with our men and women in service and have the utmost respect for them and their service.

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#51
In reply to #35

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/17/2008 4:21 PM

Yes he volunteer but didn't you "volunteer to

"We miss dance recitals, and our wives birthdays, ball games, and school plays, to go to countries that end in "stan", or places where people are shooting, or out in the middle of the gulf of Nigeria, just to meet your energy needs...."

and get paid to do it???

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#56
In reply to #51

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/18/2008 10:44 AM

I suggest you re-readmy post

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#36
In reply to #29

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/17/2008 11:38 AM

Ma'am with all due respect your question has been answered several times as it was written. Perhaps you have another question that I am not getting?

Technology has indeed advanced in the area of automotive technology. Just as any other technology. The fact is that until now the economics were not sufficient to drive technologies that were extremely gas efficient, or alternative to gasoline, at least in the US.

There are plenty of other ways, there are cars out there that approach 100 mpg. My Volkswagen diesel car gets 40 to 50 mpg as a matter of course, nothing new about that, I bought it years ago. Americans decided long ago that they didn't like diesel. Factories don't run on oil they run on electricity. Electricity runs on oil because in the 70's we Americans made a conscious decision to stop nuclear power.

I am not accusing you particularly of whining. I am accusing Americans in general of whining when the decisions we made as consumers and as voters has caused consequences that we don't like. I am also suggesting that the answer to every crisis is not to attribute the problem to some kind of government conspiracy. Which is exactly what your posts have implied, at least to me.

Money drives technology, engineers solve problem, but only those problems people pay them to solve, now that there is money to be had in energy efficiency that technology will be driven hard.

Finally, from me and my family, please pass on our thanks to your son for his service.

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#43
In reply to #29

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/17/2008 1:29 PM

It is possible to build a vehicle that can give you 100 miles to the gallon, or even more. The question is, how quickly do you want to travel that 100 miles, and what are you taking with you? If you have 25 hours, more or less, you can go 100 miles for free, walking (assuming you are not bearing a significant burden). If you want to move a week's worth of groceries at 100 miles per hour, it is going to take a whole lot more fuel. There is this concept called "energy density"- how much energy in a given quantity of a particular fuel- that can explain quite clearly why gasoline is the fuel of choice for most of our transportation needs...

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#8

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/16/2008 8:20 PM

I have been reading all your comments, thank you for your input, BUT some of you seem to think this is a New and unforseen gas problem. We have been aware of this since the 70's when gas prices went up and we were told there was a shortage. I waited in line for gas. Granted I also remember gas at 26 cents and heating oil at 18 cents. BUT this has been coming for a long time..

We should already have the technology in place and I find it hard to believe that we do not have "anyone" who has been working in this.

Why do you think we have been "scared" into thinking neclear power is soon very bad. Do you realize that our submarines have a neclear reactor on board..

We have a crew of men sitting just yards away.

I remember people protesting neclear reactor plants while my son was sitting in a submarine..

Just my thoughts.. have a nice day

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#14
In reply to #8

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/17/2008 12:37 AM

Lack of Political Will to enforce laws and regulations in face of Economic resistance.

Most politicians are responding to LOBBYISTS not to VOTERS.

Hmm - I may have put this in my other post but YOU will find much information

at http://www.PanaceaUniversity.org and the Links from there.

Stanley Meyers hydrogen cell he used to run a VW dune buggy from 94 to 98 HAS been replicated - See the link above for that and more -

Politics is the largest problem - Tyranny of Money is a REAL problem -

Best

rcb

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#23
In reply to #8

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/17/2008 9:33 AM

Unfortunatly the nature of Americans is that no one bothers to solve a problem until it becomes a crisis. If you read around this site you will find that I am a great advocate of nuclear power. The current crisis will give pause to reconsider nuclear.

But if you have read the comments, I would expect that you would have picked up that the engineering technology solutions to these issues are out there, but until recently the economic incentive has not been there to develop them... The technology exists and people have been working on this, but there was no economic incentive until now.

Perhaps the best thing that could happen is to have such a crisis, because it will bring these solutions to market finally.

But do you remember what happened after the gas crisis of the 70's? Oil dropped to $10 a barrel and we started the era of the SUV in the US. I am concerned that $150 a barrel will bring in so much new production from so many places that were not economically feasible to produce before, that the price with nose dive again, and all the advances will be for nought and Americans will be back driving Escalades...

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#12

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/17/2008 12:26 AM

Hi Joyce,

Glad you are here -

Hmm - Electricity came in 1947, paid for by the dairy cows - had to have it to get Grade A certs.

Electric water pump Same year and Reason -

Phone ( party line ) in 1951, along with the first TV - wow -

The 52 chevy got about 21 MPG

The 58 Olds 98 got 22 on the Highway - I drove it to college some years later.

The 55 T-Bird got 28 with overdrive on

The 62 Falcon Ranchero got 24 hauling the new bull home from the Experiment Station. ( clutch went out - had to hot shift the last 170 miles )

Dodge 440 in the 70's got about 15 avg 18 on freeway

Saab 99 in 69 - 27 mpg

Drove them for about 15 years

Volvo 85 - 26 mpg

Subaru 93 26

Nissan 93 maxima 29

Toyota Prius 43

Hmm first real change was a hybrid.

YOU might like http://www.panaceauniversity.org - They have a paper somewhere by a Shell engineer from the 70's listing about 200 devices that gave MORE than 100 MPG - published by SAE - ( I should look up the number )

Yes - there are business practices that are DAMAGING our society.

We can change some of the engineering - if we keep control from the BIG corporations.

My testing is in progress - posted in some other links around here.

About 30 % boost from Hydrogen generator ($60 )

about 30 % boost from chemical additves ( about $ 5 / tank )

Will be testing both together - expect about 50% with both - Some folks report more.

If you want an interesting story - try the 92 Saturn at www.hydrogen-boost.com

Honda is advertising a Hydrogen car -

A japanese company is demonstrating a fuel cell feeding batteries running a SMALL electric car -

Yes we can do better -

I am back to college this fall to build my engine - variable volume variable compression - expect 100 mpg BEFORE fuel additives and hydrogen.

January if things go well.

Glad you are here -

rcb

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#21
In reply to #12

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/17/2008 9:15 AM

I have read about the Stanley Meyers hydrogen cell but I was not going to bring it up because so much conspiracy around it BUT his pattens are now open it has been 20 years why haven't some engineers taken a good look. Look at the miles per gallon you posted...... and we have gotten better? no we have not and I truly believe there is a reason for this.... Thanks for the comments.

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#71
In reply to #21

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/18/2008 9:58 PM

Dear Joyce, You are absolutely right there is a reason for this: MONEY. If a large number of vehicles are converted to run on hydrogen made from water, then where will the windfall profits that the OPEC nations enjoy to date come from? Where will the profits that the stock market speculators are making on our difficulties come from? And many engineers who could and would make these improvements in technology are on the payroll of the very same OPEC nations.(I am not faulting the engineers, they too must eat and provide for their families.)

And to comment on another post: when driving, I have taken to counting how many SUV's are on the road with me, the number is far less than everyone and those usually have several occupants, usually families, and this is in the suburban Midwest.

Regards Dragon

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#72
In reply to #71

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/18/2008 10:23 PM

Dragonsfarm,

You are right and I truly believe this is the reason for the lack of fuel efficient cars being developed and offered to us... and I am not just looking at the "run on water" car, I mean our normal engines which I am sure could be adjusted to give us 50 to 100 mpg. if they chose to give this to us.

I believe the technology is available NOW. Our tractor trailers and I mean tens of thousands on the road are only getting about 6 miles to a gallon.. Think of that, these trucks now have air ride bags and many high tech design and are actually comfortable compared to 40 years ago BUT they do not get any better mpg.. do you think the companies who own these trucks have been asking for a better deal do you think that they were demanding better. But it fell on deaf ears. Do you realize that if a company has a "government" contract they purchase their gas at a discounted rate? This rate is not available to the private truck owner.

There has been a demand long before this. We have been told the technology is not available and we are being given the "best out there" or because of our safety features .. this is always a good answer to us.. our government is protecting us again.

Money runs the country and if there is a chance the small percentage of people who are "in charge" have a chance of loosing this money we are actually the people who loose..

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#83
In reply to #72

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/19/2008 4:29 PM

"...I mean our normal engines which I am sure could be adjusted to give us 50 to 100 mpg..."

I am sure you are right about this. When I was a kid, my Dad's '52 Chevy 6-cyl got probably 25+mpg (I didn't pay much attention back then). Later, I had friends who drove older cars ('50's vintage) such as Studebakers (30+mpg), Ramblers (35+mpg), and some models of both marques got upwards of 50 mpg. But please note that these are products of companies that are no longer in business and have not been for 40+ years. They didn't build cars that were competitive with the T-birds, Corvettes, and Mustangs. Nor with the Continentals, DeVilles, and Grand Marquis. Coincidence? I think not. Muscle car performance, luxury car amenities, and later on, SUV bulk were all regarded as being more desirable than 50mpg+ conservativism. We are hoist in large part by our own petard, and most of us never even knew we had a petard.

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#97
In reply to #83

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/20/2008 8:16 PM

You are mistaken about the mileage of those old cars. In 1966 the Rambler lost the top miles per gallon to the Corvair and the Corvair had a whopping 25 MPH! Check out some of the old Pure Oil Trials from 1966.

It seemed that we got better mileage since we only paid 25 cents a gallon - and sometimes during a gas war only 18 or 20 cents.

The only reason I quote the 1966 Trials is it the only copy I have.

The cars were lighter, far less safe, and less comfortable.

New cars are just a heck of a lot better.

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#26
In reply to #12

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/17/2008 10:14 AM

I followed the link to www.hydrogen-boost.com very interesting and if this works why isn't our goverment getting on the band wagon. This should be available to the public and at a cost much less than $1000. The average american will have a hard time with this price.

You do realize that if a car came out tomorrow that solved this problem the "average" american could not afford it and it will take another 10 years for it to trickle down to them as a used car.

Thank you for your comments. I truly believe the technology is out there for a much more efficient engine, at the very least. But I also believe the Big Corporations who would loose revenue are against them being made. I see ideas and no one truly looking into them. I believe we should be getting at the least 100 miles per gallon at this point and our Big Rigs more than 6 miles to a gallon.

The governement gets into "everything" and helps big businesses with special programs they should give the average american at least ONE special program and make this available for all our cars... Joyce

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#38
In reply to #26

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/17/2008 11:39 AM

The so called hydrogen boost is based on some real science but sold by snake oil salesmen. If I've offended real snake oil salesmen or hydrogen people, sorry I can't see you for the forest of junk.

The real science is if you add hydrogen to your fuel mix it will burn so much faster that your timing has to change. like adding flash powder to your smokeless gun powder. The maximum pressure can be attained at the best leverage for the crankshaft. Down side the car is not designed for this spike of pressure. Hydrogen still mixed with oxygen is damn volatile. The energy to make the hydrogen is hard on the charging system not developed for it.

Could it be developed for better performance and mileage? I think so the problem is how the companies producing their systems are retailing them. With titles like Grand Master Pooba Mechanic, and more HP than all energy input combined with no loss can account for. They may just be trying to hide their proprietary information but they come off as snake oil salesmen peddling over unity engine parts.

We have had this discussion several times, just look for the old hydrogen threads.

Brad

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#40
In reply to #26

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/17/2008 11:42 AM

Sorry Joyce, but this one is a scam. Search the rest of the site for more info on brown gas, or HHO scams...

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#16

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/17/2008 6:23 AM

Welcome Joyce,

Somebody on here has a signature quote from Walt Kelly that "We has met the enemy and he is us". That's a very appropriate quote for our energy woes.

The GM bus plan was no conspiracy. It was widely published and well-known to anybody that paid any attention to transportation issues. Nobody bothered.

Long ago (I love those memories of yours), we used less energy. Since I couldn't afford much gas, it never occurred to me to drive 15 miles to work when I could take the bus. When I was first married we couldn't afford a phone so we wrote letters; now we have two cell phones, a landline, and DSL. When I first started working as an engineer, we carpooled - even managers. Now everybody drives a big honking SUV with one person in it.

As much as I disliked Jimmy Carter as a president, I have moved to grudging acknowledgement that he was right about energy. We had time to fix this and we went on a binge instead.

And, we do have to decouple energy and food from the commodities market speculations. There is (IMHO) a legitimate place for price controls and floors in a complex industrialized society and those seem like a good target.

And, we need to look at domestic energy supplies, particularly off-shore drilling. In industry, there is a painful process of properly dividing up costs of various enterprises so that you see exactly what some activity costs you. The result is sometimes to close a plant or eliminate a line. We need to see the true cost of energy instead of hiding it in Saudia Arabia.

My grandfather built a new house the year you were born - 1947. He put three electrical outlets in it. He had a clock, a radio, and a lamp. He couldn't imagine what else he would ever need. I have more outlets than that on the outside of my house!

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#31
In reply to #16

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/17/2008 11:24 AM

I guess I'm guilt free. I hear everyone running around griping about an SUV and gas usage and big houses and god forbid cell phones.

Please, After living in many places ( other than the USA ) I find this all a little hollow. It is really quite ridiculous how we beat ourselves like religious zealot sect about the head and shoulders for being consumers in a successful capitalistic society.

There are no homeless in my neighborhood they live with us when they come.

Do you have an extra room in your home - solve the homeless issue in your own home first them worry about my SUV.

What follows is basically a rant so don't read further if it troubles you.

Fuel shortage - Gripe at the regulatory bunch that have not approved a refinery in at least a decade- one new exception.

Gripe at the bunch that allow Chinese and Cubans to drill for oil off our coasts whilst we gripe about them SUV drivers.

Gripe at the tree hugging snail loving environmentalists that have managed to make a mole hill more important that human places to live.

note: I am an avid outdoors and cherish our environment and always tread lightly and take out more than I bring in. the people I am referring to above are the ones who live in their house with the ac cranked up gripping at me about oil prices and snails. I don't begrudge air conditioning just don't be too much of a hypocrite.

As for my SUV's PLURAL and my 3000Sq-ft house and my bevy of electronic gadgets that are festooned about my home and workplace- I worked for them - I don't care about your opinion of them any more than you offer me the concern that I might actually want to own them. You don't respect me and you expect me to get on some governmental cheese program and buy a Prius. Not because its a smart thing to do but rather the "in" thing to do - I might add a $40K vehicle who's technology is already out of date. Please, I never thought I would grow tired of the lemmings hollering at me - its official I am.

Live with in your means

let me live within mine

stop yer griping and deal with it

I started as a child on my own at 9 years old on the streets with no parents ( they protested the establishment and all the conspiracy in the establishment folks too - they had their moon bat hat and tin foil antennas on the skull cap. - meantime they threw this baby out with the bathwater.

I had nothing, I was a green as you can get and no one offered me squat. So I set a goal and decided I wouldn't ride anymore buses that I used to get thrown off of because I stunk and had no way to wash.

I decided I wasn't going to live in a cardboard box and would have a nice home for my children.

I decided that people are about the moment and I picked some goals and went about earning my degree with service in the USN and then working long hours overseas in places that end in "stan" and now traveling as required working seven jobs one I don't even get paid in money for; minister, engineer, Realtor, mortgage broker, yard service, moving contractor, carpenter. I want a SUV, so I earn it and will work more to support it.

So drive a Prius and earn the carbon credits and leave more fuel for me- thanks.

Prius- good for those who want one.

So that rant being said, ill put on my asbestos underwear and hop in my 4x4 SUV and hook up my boat trailer with the ATV in the back and go hang out with my firearms waiting for whomever would like to take issue with my living habits - I am an American - Not a socialist - I will not lose a minute of sleep as you roll past my house in your Prius. However if you pull a dumb move in traffic you can smile as you go under.

I don't mind your concern and heck I even share some of them. enjoy your Prius and riding the T and the bus. One thing though before you get all wound up about the gas stuff and consumer activism if you happen to have a empty room in your house invite a homeless child. Thanks we appreciate it.

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#34
In reply to #31

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/17/2008 11:30 AM

"just to let you know" I have given jobs to "homeless" on the street. I have housed people with no place to go until they got on their feet..........

What does this have to do with asking our engineers for a better, more efficient engine for our cars?

This is not a forum for "solving world problems" I want an engineer to "look into the

other alternatives, somthing that would help today not 10 years from now.

Have a nice life.

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#37
In reply to #34

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/17/2008 11:38 AM

Everything - its an indicator - if we wont require reach in our efforts to help one another we lack the vision to dream

That lack of vision make engineering jobs really boring

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#54
In reply to #31

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/18/2008 8:14 AM

Zap,

Thanks. I am a tree-hugger and, being an engineer, I believe in doing rather than talking. Twenty-five years ago, when I first realized we were screwing up the atmosphere with pollution (a lot of which I helped make), I calculated out my "carbon debt" and it comes to roughly 5 acres of trees. Since then my wife and I have made it a point to own and maintain at least 5 acres each in trees to cancel our "debt" (and yes, I know it's only temporary sequestering but it's all I got). So I sorta think I put my money where my mouth is.

Plus, the neighbors who also use our woods for hunting, walking their dogs, dumping their yard waste, etc. generally appreciate our efforts.

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#57
In reply to #54

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/18/2008 10:56 AM

LOL - As a tree hugger of sorts myself its all good friend

I stop calculating my footprint when I watched Middle Eastern, African and other dump billions of acres of carbon into the atmosphere.

Tread lightly - carry out more than in - install solar and wind in my home - compost - etc etc . . . the difference is I'm not some militant Zappa head that decides how you should live. Thats what I resent. I might add I resent it vehemently. In case you couldn't already tell that. ( I am not implying you are a Zappa head)

As far as my free room policy, I figure some stuff is more important such as a homeless child or family that is getting stuffed under the bus by folks who fly Lear jets and tell me to use one slice of tp but hey thats just me.

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#60
In reply to #54

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/18/2008 1:09 PM

Thank you for the comment. I too maintain 6 acres of land in Middlefield Ma the home of the New American Castle which is also green...

I am also an advocate for wind power.

Joyce

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#30

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/17/2008 11:15 AM

Engineers can design them as safe and fuel efficient as desired. Right now it is possible to purchase autos that travel in excess of 65 mpg. Actually, these autos have been available for 20+ yrs, but if you start adding requirements in the form of environmental regs, additional conveniences, etc. you end up driving costs up and efficiencies down.

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#39
In reply to #30

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/17/2008 11:40 AM

Finally a voice of reason. .

KUDOS!

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#41
In reply to #30

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/17/2008 11:43 AM

Yep,,,

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#42
In reply to #30

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/17/2008 12:45 PM

Prius plus hydrogen will go 60 + MPG all the features -

HYBRID is the key folks keep ignoring

Look at the Vincent Carman patent - 80's ready to run HYDRAULIC hybrid transmission system - ignored -

Now the DOE is spending research money to REPRODUCE what was DEMONSTRATED and TESTED nearly 30 years ago

The LARGEST problems are the POLITICAL and CORPORATE systems that

FAIL SOCIETY by allowing BUSINESS DEMANDS to control ENERGY systems.

rcb

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#44

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/17/2008 2:18 PM

There HAVE been many improvements in automotive technology! For example, look at the 500 hp engines that Dodge - Chrysler et al like to put out there. They are smaller than the old 12 hp engines of the early 1900s. Look at the Hybrids and electric cars. The problem has been that we could engineer all kinds of marvelous inventions, but we need to mass produce cars at a low cost. Wars and space exploration have created many of the modern improvements and inventions of today. The oil in my wife's Town & Country is black as sludge crude oil after 500 miles. My Toyota oil looks like it was changed yesterday after 6,000 miles.

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#45

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/17/2008 2:30 PM

ever heard of the vuaxhall motors corporation? thier 62.0. 70.7 and 93.6 engines properly tuned without the american and canadaian govermnent mandated g.u.l.p. emissions sytems would allow a driver to hit on average 49.9 m.p.g imperial measure.

strange how that system cannot be resurrected to meet todays e.p. standar4ds isn't it?

ever wonder if the e.p.a standards as set up by the AMERICAN Automotive Engineering Society just might have something to do with the milages which are not ommon today?

your item reads that you like an average of 90% of AMERICANS are more than ready to lay blame for more than one problem with YOUR and the WORLDS societies at the feet of the medical profession legal bandits or anyone else who lines i up in your sights when the major part of the issue is a neglect to consider that the g.o.y.a. system is required to correct whatever you think should be corrected by SOMEONE ELSE.

'da ber

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#46

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/17/2008 2:51 PM

Yeah yeap.. I dont arguing on this one with you, I agree there. Sounds interesting point of yours definetly. I do believe they getting there eventually but as you pointed out I believe this thing catched us off guard I assumed, I dont know what to tell ya'.. Kind of a conflicting stuff no doubth about it. Anything may going wrong at some point somewhere and telephones lines are not an exception, true.

Now, we'll going digital all over and just hopeful for the good, I hope! I'm wondering now if some of those old TV's sets have a little gold in it because at almost $1000 oz. is something, I don't know! if that the case it will be good deal to re-cycle them as well like the computers, who knows...

All good then nice to share few smart thougths once in a while this what is all about.

Good Day Now,

MC

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#49
In reply to #46

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/17/2008 4:08 PM

Thank you for your thoughts. The problem is I do not think it will be big business or our government who will get us out of this mess. I believe it has to be our engineers who will have to work without the help of big business. It will have to be the independent thinker who will ignore all the nay sayers and go ahead and find the answers. We have "the internet" and with this he can reach the world.

Joyce

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#53

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/18/2008 1:43 AM

Hi Joyce,

Welcome

Here's a Few of the recent Hydrogen threads:

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/21557?frmtrk=cr4sd#newcomments

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/22670

http://cr4.globalspec.com/comment/241061

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/5405#comment240212

Draw your own conclusions

Lots of ideas will be pulled off the shelves & put into service

$140/barrel oil makes ideas seem alot more clever than when oil was $10/bbl.

We have use our resources more efficiently.

People avoid public transportation, so they don't have to rub shoulders with strangers.

I drove a full sized pickup until gas went above $2/gal. The toyota I replaced it with gets about 3 times the mileage. & is comfortable for my 6foot+ body.

There are solutions, but the whole planet can't consume resources at the rate we in the US have grown acustomed to. As China & India increase their consumption energy will become more valuable.

We will all have to do more with less!

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#55

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/18/2008 10:01 AM

One thing I think has been overlooked on this thread; all car builders are not American. If the technology was available today to make 100 mpg cars that meet our pollution and safety standards, do you really think that our car/oil companies and the American government would be able to prevent the Japenese, Koreans, or Europeans from building one and selling it here? Or, could any American influence prevent the Indian or Chinese companies from building it for their own customers?

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#58
In reply to #55

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/18/2008 11:19 AM

You bring up an excellent point that I appreciate thanks.

Whats humorous is several years ago Japanese auto makers were fined when their engines exceeded a certain size. Thus the Japanese car company's building plants in the USA. This way they could build larger motors without paying the penalty in their home country.

In 1985 when I lived in Japan for three years I lived in a two story house with Tatami mats, futons and drove a Honda my neighbor an engine designer for Mitsubishi lived in a two story with ceramic Tile, water bed and a Ford in his driveway. we used to joke about that all the time.

In that period of three years irony replaced exasperation.

In fact the more I travel the less guilt I feel as an American citizen for my "consumption" - its a urban myth.

Any society that reaches our population in our specific geographical circumstance would be consuming a like quantity of resources minus a few of our frivolity. Frivolous stuff and resources which we have earned as a nation.

So I fail to feel guilty anymore about our good fortune or the way we live as a people. Visit beaches in non tourist countries and see the fields of trash , look to the emissions of motor vehicles in other countries, look at the waste of infrastructure. then look at home ( USA, Australia etc) suddenly you keep trying to improve but its a guilt free process in addition to understanding that mean ole Americans that drive SUVs love this earth too.

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#61

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/18/2008 2:36 PM

Hi Joyce1947,

Great topic!

My guess is, at least for the US, that there hasn't been enough potential return-on-profit, until recently, to attract venture-capital investors to develop new designs, or to commercialize existing designs sitting on the shelf, for new, non-gas fueled and high mpg car technologies.

I know the federal government, though "SBIR" and similar initiatives, has been funding research in this direction for a number of years. I suspect many of these projects are now seeking private-sector funding to commericialize, to take advantage of the current environment. Amazing what the price of a barrel of oil has done to the Canadian province of Alberta over the past couple of years!

Overseas, innovation has been going on: Tata's Nano (India), China's Cherry, and Germany's (Mercedes) Smart Car all look promising as fuel efficient options. I suspect these models will get tweaked in overseas markets for a few years (like the Smart car was), maybe first being offered to a market like the Middle East and then to North America when "ready for prime time". Interesting experiments with non-gas fuel cars (hydrogen) have been going on in Iceland and Germany as well.

There's been lots of innovation going on recently here in the US, too (Chevy Volt is an example). But sometimes it's just easier for a US engineer to partner with an overseas manufacturer than to start his/her own company, and so a few US mechanical engineers may choose to work Cherry or similar companies when they join the North American market in the near future. Not the end of the world if they choose to do that - all part of globalization and a more diverse auto market here in North America.

- April05

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#66
In reply to #61

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/18/2008 6:19 PM

Thank you for your very intelligent and thought out answer to me.

You have a great day.

I have gotten a lot of people telling me what can not work just because it is not logical or the laws of physics says it can not work. I believe unless you actually put things to the test yourself you can not give an intelligent answer only an opinion. Technology needs to be tried and if it fails ok lets try something else. Remember the Wright brothers, people thought their ideas would not work. Columbus set out to prove the world was round not flat again his ideas were thought to be incorrect.

I believe you should "think outside the box" and try........... Thanks again

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#64

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/18/2008 5:32 PM

I too remember when the Ice Man came to the door and delivered the amount of ice you wanted or could afford.

Car improvements have moved along fairly steady and continue to do so.

Do you remember the Pure Oil tests. They were ran every year and cars were graded on gas mileage, breaks, etc.

In 1966 the top mileage car was the Corvair with 25.003 miles to the gallon and beat the traditional winner the American Rambler. The worse mileage was the Mercury Monterey at only 13.740 miles to the gallon. The cars were ran at a steady 40 miles an hour with a weighted gallon of gas, until they ran out, the distance measured.

The stopping distance was won by a Buick with 168.2 feet from 65 miles per hour! The worse car for stopping took an 115.4 feet further! The Ford Falcon took that honor with 65.4 feet! Next came the Mercury Monterey with 250.2 feet just barely beating the Chevelle Super Sport 396 with a death defying 250 feet even.

The point is of coarse the cars has improved - you don't go down and have an undercoat sprayed on to prevent rust.

About 1950 I heard a man bragging that his new Chevy had gone 50,000 mile before it had to have an overhaul.

If the American or any other car manufactures could put out a car that would give 100 mile to the gallon, you can dam well believe, it would make them more money than the government has.

If the oil companies (which are owned by people such as your self, your neighbors, and many other ordinary folks, in our 401Ks and money market accounts) had the patent rights to all the fuel savers, will they would be in the fuel saving business!

There is a market for oil in many fields other that just supplying fuel.

Large companies are going to market the best money makers they can find. So while it makes a good story they are not setting on the patients that would make them far more money than just selling fuel to you.

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#65
In reply to #64

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/18/2008 5:40 PM

Hmm - fuel savers are worth 120 BILLION a year in profits !! I am not getting any :)

( that is ONLY US companies - PROFITS )

Check your assumptions - Mine have been thoroughly crushed - and are being recycled.

There is an SAE publication listing 200 + devices that get OVER 100 MPG -

I am still looking for an official copy -

Keep on Thinking

rcb

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#67
In reply to #65

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/18/2008 6:32 PM

To rcbondsr

Unfortunately I agree with you. I truly believe we have had the technology for a long time but the oil companies are afraid and use their immense pressure to stop anything that would cut into their profits. Our government still gives them perks etc. Last year they made the highest profits and they still cried poverty. They have no idea how hard it is for the "average" worker. I had employees making $8.00 per hour I had no idea how they could afford food, gas, car insurance, rent and this was almost two years ago I can not imagine what is happening to them today.

I actually had one employee who walked back and forth to work which was an hour walk each way, even in the winter. I gave her a ride anytime I could.

Most of these politicians and big business have no idea how hard it is for some people.

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#68
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Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/18/2008 7:31 PM

Joyce, I am a bit curious why you started this discussion. You have obviously already made up your mind that the price of gasoline is a great conspiracy by the government and the oil companies to screw the American people. The vast majority of the posters here have disagreed, but you are still going on about such a conspiracy. I don't get understand what you hope to accomplish here. Walking an hour, even in winter is not a hardship. Sorry, it is inconvienient, and maybe uncomfortable, but not a hardship. I was walking a hour to school in the winter time when I was a third grader... If a lot more people walked an hour to work the general health of Americans would improve, and the price of gasoline would drop. As it is high schools have to build bigger parking lots for all the kids driving their cars 5 minutes to school... that is something we should be ashamed of.

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#70
In reply to #68

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/18/2008 9:07 PM

Ok to answer you.

This is a site for engineers this is why I asked my original questions. Engineers design all these innovative things, correct? I have had people say. OH it was because we Americans were lazy and wanted convenience or style or because a company thought it was a better way and we did not protest when the streetcars were taken out etc….

Really? So what was wrong with a party phone line? Who decided this needed to be changed. I never heard of anyone complaining they needed a phone they could walk around with but here we are.

Who decided we needed a washing machine that we did not have to manually feed our clothing through to wring out the water.

Who decided we needed a stove with an electric start rather than just light it with a match?

Who decided we needed a refrigerator we did not have to put a huge block of ice in to get things cold?

Who decided on a frost free refrigerator?

I do not believe we were all complaining we needed these changes. They were actually given to us. Technology changed and we were offered the new items.

We now have the internet and who are we putting out of business? Newspapers for one but they are not big enough to have stopped this technology or even realized this would be the end result.

Retail stores are also being hit because so many of us are doing our shopping on the net. But they can not stop the technology.

VCR and 8 track players replaced by DVDs and IPod this put companies out of business. We did not demand these items they were invented and offered to us.

Why weren't engineers and big business designing more efficient cars and giving us options on what would run our cars? I truly think engineers did design these and do know how to give us an engine that can out perform whatever we now have BUT they have never been offered to the public because………well you decide..

I have found different sites stating other options are available but other people say..no waste of money "snake oil" sellers… so who do I believe?

One company K & N even puts out an air filter system that is so much better…. Just a simple item.

Why isn't this simple technology automatically on our cars, it is only about $300. Simple item yet…….. you decide// Who is making the decisions not to offer these changes to us? Do you really believe we do not have the technology available?

We are not getting any better gas mileage then we were when I drove a corvette. A corvette was getting 18 miles to a gallon when I was 18 years old. My daughter drives a VW Passot and can average 35 mpg and this is supposedly "great" really? This is the best that can be done in the last 43 years? I think not.

You asked me "what do I want?" I want us to wake up and DEMAND these things be actually looked into. I am hoping I hit a note with some engineer who really wants to change things..

If Stan Myers was Wrong why can't our government prove him wrong. It has been 20 years since he filed his patents. Our government spends money on nothing items like… do not plant peanuts and we will give you money… shouldn't we be able to receive documented proof these things do not work. It should not be a "radio station" conducting these test..

Again just my opinion..and thoughts..

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#73
In reply to #70

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/19/2008 1:53 AM

Hi Joyce,

It is good you are waking up Engineers to invent car which consumes renewable fuel and is reasonably priced. Alas Engineers throughout the world were all these years working hard but unfortunately have so far not found any reasonable alternative.So what is solution to the problem?.Hang on, wait for miracle to happen?.No we have to adjust our lifestyle to meet the challange which is faced by all the people of the world including poor and rich countries. Some people have already started making changes, few are listed below:-

1.Shifted their houses to places which are connected by buses or metro rail.

2.Avoided long intercity drives to save gas bills.

3.Pooled the cars.

4.Walked to neighbourhood malls for grocery purchases.

5.Changed to small fuel efficent cars.

6.Shut the car A/Cs when not required.

And many more.................

So dont expect miracles to happen from Engineers but adjust yourself. Sorry we could not meet your expectations.

Suresh Sharma.

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#76
In reply to #73

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/19/2008 9:47 AM

Hello Suresh,

Thanks for your input but you have taken the government's point of view. We consumers are the problem.. We consume too much energy… we purchased the big SUVs offered to us. We purchased the homes built away from the cities. We purchased air conditioners and frost free refrigerators.

What I saw was that We were not only offered these inventions but encouraged to purchase and use. We did not design nor ask for these energy consuming products.

I expect us to be offered truly thought out solutions. Instead of us "car pooling" selling our homes to move into the cities, Selling our cars to purchase new cars. Do you really think this is a logical answer?

Can an average American afford to this in the next couple of years? I think not the only people who would be able to do this are the "people with money" who do not have to sell their homes or purchase smaller cars.

This is my solution and I know if the technology can be "invented". It would change things in a matter of weeks or months at the most.

1) We need an engineer to concentrate on what can be added on our tractor trailers to substantially increase the mpg they currently get. By the way a new tractor trailer averages 6 yes six miles per gallon and it travels about 4000 - 6000 miles a WEEK Diesel is now $5.00 to $6.00 per gallon.. You do the math. Most small company owners are no longer driving and are already out of business.

2) Most tractor trailer companies are large and have the finances to purchase an item for each tractor trailer even at a cost of up to $5,000 each. The government in the last couple of years offered them a program giving them tax incentives if they purchased new tractor trailers and most did.

3) A tax incentive could be attached. These companies pull every truck in for service every 15000 miles remember they travel about 4000 - 6000 a week this item could easily be added at that time.

4) These companies would welcome such a device. AND our gas consumption would change over night and I am not exaggerating. We could change in just a few months……..

5) The next item would be our factories. Yes a big project BUT if they could convert from oil think of the savings. And again tax incentives would motivate them. The oil consumption of factors and hundreds of thousands of trucks verses how many car pools?

6) This is what I see for an answer.. Yes we can still work on the average American but this would take years…… not months.

7) Just these two changes would change our consumption VERY fast. Trucking companies and factories would jump at the chance.

8) Again putting the problem that was "offered" by engineers and the government on the backs of ordinary Americans will take too long to correct. An average American does not drive a new car and can not afford to change their car even if it was available today.

Thank you for reading my thoughts and ideas.

Just think of the money an engineer could make. He would only have to go to one large trucking company and equip one or two trucks and the item would then sell itself.

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#80
In reply to #76

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/19/2008 2:58 PM

When OVERWHELMING amounts of MONEY oppose you - it is very difficult to make progress. Many Venture capital folks are NOT willing to FIGHT the OIL MONEY-

Yes that is REAL EXPERIENCE talking -

<SoapBox>

FACT - Once we get 40 HP running on cheap or free fuel ( WATER ? )

Houses come with their own generator -

Houses sell excess power to the GRID - which only needs to be LOCAL

NO REBUILDING OF THE LONG LINE GRID SYSTEM

At that point the SIZE of generator does NOT matter - Electric cars are charged at home.

The cars can run happily from 40 HP - HYBRID technology

NEW PARIDIGM

NO FUEL INDUSTRY -- oil companies are LUBRICATION companies

NO ELECTRIC INDUSTRY -- except to build house and small business generators and LOCAL GRID systems.

NO NUCLEAR INDUSTRY except for powering Nuclear Ships

OOPPS - do not need them either They run on WATER

WARNING - ECONOMIC POLITICS AHEAD

My quick count is 380 BILLION dollars in PROFITS that will VANISH

Who is opposed to this change.

OIL

NUCLEAR

ELECTRIC

TAXES for the ROADS - we must revamp the tax system - some of MY local politicians are starting to discuss this - quietly -

Three systems are converging to make this change possible.

Politics and Money can DELAY it - for a few more years - while WE FUND the RADICAL RELIGIONS.

</SoapBox>

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#81
In reply to #80

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/19/2008 3:38 PM

Thanks.. rcbondsr,

You are a the voice of reality not the people who stick their heads in the ground and

are naive enough to think that big business does not stop technology that will cut

into their pockets.. They do not realize the influence these companies have.

I hope your reality is just around the corner.. not sure if I will be around to see it

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#84
In reply to #76

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/19/2008 5:06 PM

Hmmm... The two largest trucking companies in the world (Wal-Mart and JB Hunt) are headquartered around Bentonville, Arkansas. I lived near there (Rogers) up until just over a year ago, so I know this to be factual. They have the greatest incentive to lower their costs by improving their mileage. At least one (Wal-Mart) is indeed experimenting with a hybrid 18-wheeler that could cut their fuel expenditures enormously if it could be implemented instantaneously. It cannot. They had one (1) in the fleet a year ago for demonstration purposes. They estimated it would take a decade or so to replace the entire fleet with them. I presume Hunt is following a similar course, but cannot verify this. If the "bigs" are working on a fix that will take that long to process, what chance have the rest of us to do it faster?

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#85
In reply to #84

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/19/2008 6:23 PM

Correct - and the ONLY thing Quick is Hydrogen - Several companies selling to the truckers at $3,000 to $15,000 pet truck - and quoting paybacks in MONTHS --

One trucker reports a double smack unit gained him 1.5 mpg - for about 200 total investment - and has now done it to the other 7 or 8 trucks he owns.

HOW LONG would it take for every auto driver in the country to spend $200 and reduce their fuel consuption 20% - and some cars respond to additives like ESTERS with another 20 to 30 % gain - at about $2 / ounce at high retail - 3 ounces per tank saves about $10 to $15 -

WE could do this BY CHRISTMAS - if EVERYONE got on the SAME PAGE

The FIRST booster to add HYDROGEN to a car for MILEAGE was PATENTED in 1918

Old technology coming round again - Liars and Hucksters at every turn - BUT the TECHNOLOGY WORKS.

Keep Thinking -

rcb

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#86
In reply to #85

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/19/2008 7:02 PM

Hi rcbondsr,

Read this. why is this being sent out of the country?

Rotarians hear about biodiesel, alternative energy

06/19/08

By Kevin Myrick / RN-T staff writer

Greg Hopkins
Greg Hopkins, CEO of Rome-based U.S. Biofuels, spoke to the Rome Rotary Club at their luncheon today about the use of alternative fuels around the nation.

Hopkins, whose company makes nearly 1 million gallons a month of biodiesel from poultry fat, said that consumers in the United States should start getting used to the idea that alternative fuels like his will be the answer to a growing energy crisis.

"Energy consumption is set to increase 40 percent and 54 percent in the U.S. and world respectively," Hopkins said. "And with dwindling crude oil supplies around the world we need alternatives."

Hopkins was recently elected to the 15-member governing board of the National Biodiesel Board, which is a trade organization that promotes the use of biodiesel and contains members from producers, agricultural organizations and individuals who nationwide are interested in biodiesel.

Hopkins said that the use of biodiesel is up in areas where stricter emissions standards have become common practice, but that in the Southeast, particularly in Georgia, mandates should be put in place to create a local market. Without the local market, U.S. Biofuels exports all of their biodiesel to the foreign market.

"I would feel a lot better having a local market," Hopkins said. "But I don't mind bringing money back into the country."

Hopkins also said that his company has been investigating the production of other alternative fuel sources such as ethanol and biobutanol, but that U.S. Biofuels was putting more research into the company's biodiesel production.

"Right now, we're primarily interested in finding alternative feed stocks for biodiesel," Hopkins said.

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#87
In reply to #86

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/19/2008 10:04 PM

WHY - Money and POLITICS

See This article - from the current Rolling Stone

The Secret Campaign of Bush's Administration To Deny Global
Warming

This article is from the latest issue of Rolling Stone, on news

stands until June 29th

OUTRIGHT LIES - EDITING SCIENTIFIC REPORTS TO REVERSE THE FINDINGS

and it goes DOWNHILL from there

"They've got a political clientele that does not want to be
regulated," says Rick Piltz, a former Bush climate official who blew
the whistle on White House censorship of global-warming documents in
2005. "Any honest discussion of the science would stimulate public

pressure for a stronger policy. They're not stupid."


But those who were expecting a Nixon-to-China moment from Bush on
climate weren't counting on the influence of the vice president and
his industrial patrons. In March 2001, Whitman traveled to Italy for
climate talks with European allies. She affirmed Bush's commitment to
regulating greenhouse gases - a position she had vetted with
Condoleezza Rice and Chief of Staff Andy Card. But what Whitman
didn't grasp was that when it came to climate, the president was
largely irrelevant.

Whitman should have had her doubts. Prior to joining the Cabinet, she
sought personal assurance from Bush that the EPA would be able to
call its own shots without deferring to the CEQ - the Council on
Environmental Quality, a policy arm of the White House. As Whitman
recalls it, Bush made no effort to mask his bureaucratic
ignorance. "What's CEQ?" he asked blankly.

Cheney took full advantage of the president's cluelessness, bringing
the CEQ into his own portfolio. "The environment and energy issues
were really turned over to him from the beginning," Whitman says. The
CEQ became Cheney's shadow EPA, with industry calling the shots. To
head up the council, Cheney installed James Connaughton, a former
lobbyist for industrial polluters, who once worked to help General
Electric and ARCO skirt responsibility for their Superfund waste
sites.

Industry swiftly took advantage of its new friend in the White House.
In a fax sent to the CEQ on February 6th, 2001 - two weeks after Bush
took office - ExxonMobil's top lobbyist, Randy Randol, demanded a
housecleaning of the scientists in charge of studying global warming.
Exxon urged CEQ to dump Robert Watson, who chaired the IPCC, along
with Rosina Bierbaum and Mike MacCracken, who had coordinated the
National Assessment.
Page 3

Exxon's wish was the CEQ's command. According to an internal e-mail
obtained by Rolling Stone, Connaughton' s first order of business -
even before his nomination was made public - was to write his White
House colleagues-to- be from his law firm of Sidley & Austin. He
echoed Exxon's call that Bierbaum, the acting director of the Office
of Science and Technology Policy, be "dealt." In the end, each of the
scientists on Exxon's hit list was replaced. "It was clear there was
a strong lobby and activity against me by some in the energy
industry - especially ExxonMobil," says Watson.

A month after Exxon's fax, Whitman got her first sign that the EPA
was no longer in charge of climate policy. "When I made the statement
in Italy that something might happen on CO2," she says, "the utility
industry got really engaged, and all of that caused a rethink." In a
move Cheney is suspected of engineering, conservative senators Jesse
Helms, Chuck Hagel and Larry Craig wrote the White House on March 6th
seeking a "clarification" of the president's policy.

Two days later, the climate "rethink" was laid out in a memo by a
team of advisers loyal to Cheney - two of whom, Andrew Lundquist and
Karen Knutson, would go on to lead the vice president's energy task
force. The memo - provided to Rolling Stone by a former
administration official - concluded that Bush's campaign promise to
regulate CO2 "did not fully reflect the president's position" and
that "it would be premature at this time to propose any specific
policy or approach aimed at addressing global warming." The authors
dismissed both the IPCC and the National Assessment, writing
that "the current state of scientific knowledge about causes of and
solutions to global warming is inconclusive and . . . must await

further scientific inquiry."

----------------------------

for more - read the article ENTIRE

We will probably NOT get LEGAL redress - but a Democratic administration will start

to rebuild the SCIENCE BASED regulation of business -

rcb

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#90
In reply to #76

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/20/2008 3:55 AM

Hi Joyce,

Thanks for your comments.I would like to draw your attention to lead news in yesterday's "New York Times" (I read net edition) it is about four American oil companies entering into non bid contract with Iraq oil comapnies for increasing the oil production by 50 million barrels per day.

Also Saudis have agreed to increase the production to same scale.What I learn from this article is that oil prices were allowed to jump to $130 or more per barrel so that Iraq will benefit from the boost in price and money could be used for reconstruction of Iraq.

So this is price whole world is paying for the Iraq war. It is indirect Iraq War Tax.I feel after so much resistance to the sky rocketing of oil prices it will come down to reasonable level shortly.

Suresh Sharma.

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#91
In reply to #90

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/20/2008 4:21 AM

POLITICS - Payoff for Cheney's oil buddies - READ the TREATIES and look at

the RIP-OFF of IRAQ -

Read the Current Issue of Rolling Stone - THAT is TYPICAL of the WORKING of the BUSH_CHENEY White House

-rcb

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#74
In reply to #70

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/19/2008 9:15 AM

Ok I am repeating myself now..

Follow the money Joyce, all of those things were done because there was money to be made in doing them. Engineers developed a electric driven fridge, put it on the market, and people bought it.

Engineers in the seventy's designed and built fuel efficient small cars, remember the Gremlin, and as the crisis faded people bought SUV's. So engineers built better SUV's..

If it won't sell it won't get done. Americans got what they wanted. Sorry but that is reality. Engineers don't force anything on anyone.

But I am now convinced that there is no changing your mind, so I won't bother anymore... Thanks it was interesting...

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#77
In reply to #74

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/19/2008 9:50 AM

Hi Steve thanks for your thoughts and opinions I know I am a stubborn "old" lady...

What do you think about my tractor trailer ideas.. do not give up on me..

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#88
In reply to #74

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/19/2008 10:08 PM

Yes - FOLLOW the MONEY -

Our money used to PAY TERRORISTS - and block development of Alternative Energy

The GM / TEXACO charade of the Electric car -

etc etc etc -----

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#75
In reply to #68

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/19/2008 9:18 AM

Now to make it out on a drive by fast foods stops are going to be harder since is though to wait in line with that engine on until get out of there if all the order came out straigth, we never know. Anyhow the other day I was trying explained that to my kids but you know how it is they dont want to hear that, but they eventually will as is no much option anyhow for the moment. I dont know I'm quit I 'm telling ya'...

Now the other day I was hearing at the line by post station around that the next huge -MonoPoly- will be with the 'Water' may you imagine that? --Unbeliaveble Maquiavelics-- I don't Know! Better not to find out then. But who know's again...!

Alrigth now stay cool for the moment and hopeful everything get back together again eventually on it's own, I guess. No Problemmmoohh..

Good Pal's,

MC

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#69

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/18/2008 8:12 PM

And, Joyce, I have to chastise you for not being completely honest. You said that when you were on a party line, if you heard somebody talking you hung up and tried later. Ha! We all just stayed on the line and eavesdropped. Now, come on, you must have done that once or twice, right? We even had one lady up the road who would join in the conversation if she thought it was interesting or there was something she didn't understand.

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#78

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/19/2008 1:52 PM

I see your 61 years and raise you to 65. I have seen all you mentioned and then some. What I haven't seen is evidence of a great conspiracy to hold back technology that would improve auto fuel efficiency. It is my fault for not wanting fuel economy as much as reliability and comfort and I will take full responsibilty for the whole sorry state of affairs. I spent too many days of my misspent youth lying under a piece of junk fixing some problem or other.

The fact that mileage has not increased as much as some would hope for is a small price to pay for the fact that I can pretty much count on getting where ever I am headed without much thought given to taking along a tool box or extra motor oil. Plus I do it with my six speaker stereo and GPS and AWD.

This is the way of a free market economy. We make mistakes in our choices sometimes and get caught with the consequences like we are with high fuel prices.

As goofy as this system seems some times, it is a heck of a lot better than anything else out there. Would you prefer to live in a country where most of your life decisions are made for you by some group of mullahs who is much wiser than you by virtue of the power they hold? Mileage would be the least of our worries.

So, please Mr. Automotive Engineer, now that you have overcome my creature comfort needs, can I now have better economy or fuel cells or steam engine cars or whatever? In return I will promise not to vote for someone who thinks they have all of the answers and is willing to tell me how to live my sorry life.

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#79
In reply to #78

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/19/2008 2:50 PM

Hi beriberi

Why are you raising me to 65? I do not LIE... I am 61 and proud of it. I advanced myself in the business world when "women" were not allowed to take on high income jobs... I did this myself, with no ones help but my own. I do not look for other people to solve my problems I solve them myself. My success was my own doing..but back to the subject at hand.

My personal life has nothing to do with our lack of advancement in the auto industry.

I am not sure what point you are trying to make. I have been driving since I was 16 and can count on my 10 fingers how many times I broke down in all these years and usually it was a flat tire. The other point is I drove Used Cars nothing new at the time. I did however maintain my vehicles or my husband did with oil changes and tuning them up by changing points and plugs.

Our cars did not brake down any more then than now. The only difference is IF your car broke down today your trusty old tool box would be useless..

I am not sure why you think I am putting the problems on someone else I am asking the same people who advanced designs for other items to use this same knowledge and find answers to this problem. The big difference is i believe we already have the technology.. and it is not being used.

Did you know that ITT uses Hydrogen/Oxygen fuel cells to run generators?....hummmmmmm

Have a great day

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#82
In reply to #79

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/19/2008 4:16 PM

Joyce, Joyce, Joyce-you are too sensitive and defensive by half. My reply was not about you or your life. I am 65, not you, so I have seen a few more years.

All I am trying to say is that we have choices and pay consequences when we make poor ones.

But the operative word is choice! Better to be free and make bad choices than get to make no choices at all. I hear too many rants in these forums about solving the world's imagined problems by mandate, for example, global warming.

I believe that we can solve any problem we set our minds to as long as it isn't at the point of a gun. Now is the time to resolve the energy crisis, but the free market will sort it out a lot more smoothly and efficiently than all the politicans and bloviators.

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#92
In reply to #79

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/20/2008 7:53 AM

When I read the post, it was clear to me that Beriberi was indicating to this forum that he was 65 years old and that he understood Joyce to be 61 years old. He seems to indicate that a 65 year old has as much life experience as a 61 year old. I understand his point entirely. No need for further clarification on the Joyce age issue. We get it.

Furthermore, although cars brake, in this context, the correct grammer would have been "break".

Let's be clear and concise here.

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#95
In reply to #78

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/20/2008 3:48 PM

Big , long thread. Much could be said. First, Consider that we as consumers make CHOICES (with consequences...) but we make them essentially from "MENUS" of one sort of another. This is a very important "filter" on our free choice. Who really makes the choice, those that read the menu or those that write it?

Second, In general, engineers do their vast majority of work on problems they are paid to work on. At best they will be offered a MENU to choose from. (An entrepreneurial minority spends significant time working on problems they want to (they make up their own MENU) but most of these projects are resource limited when compared to the general engineers.) As a result, the projects with the best chance of success are those that are expected to benefit the engineer's employer.

Don't get me wrong, benefits to the engineer, the customer, suppliers, the local economy, the spotted owl, etc. are not ignored but the people who decide what goes on the engineer's menu are generally compensated according to performance (usually short term) of the company. The typical citizen fosters these decisions on the part of the leadership by investing in the companies (either directly or by mutual fund ownership) and wanting/expecting double digit returns.) Benefits to the company from the use of a product or process that is truly beneficial to the society at large often don't arrive at the company before the leadership has turned over (sometimes several times).

Third, It is much easier to develop a product or process that will improve MY mileage by significant amounts than it is to implement it on millions of drivers or cars. Take for example: 1) accelerate slowly / close throttle, coast to stop/ minimize braking or 2) keep speed low (55 or less) to reduce air resistance. These are things that ANYONE CAN DO RIGHT NOW but they are not universally adopted overnight. If similar savings were offered with the purchase of a device ANY PRICE CHARGED WOULD SLOW DOWN THE IMPLEMENTATION. The only system wide change that could occur "by Christmas" is what could occur if millions of individuals choose to do millions of little things.

Fourth, Do we really need better gas mileage for our cars? We only chose cars because they were fast and easy ways to transport ourselves and our stuff. Oh, wait a minute. Cheaply transport ourselves and our stuff. They are not cheap anymore. Like it or not, many subsequent choices were made based on the car/cheap gas paradigm. Suburbs are one of them. We have chosen, and built our residential /commercial/ industrial infrastructure based on being able to cheaply drive long distances to work, shopping, etc.

Working to preserve the holy car as a means of transportation may be the wrong thing to do. We may be better off realizing that the car and all of it's resultant consequences were based on the extraction (don't say production, it is not produced) of a wonderful, energy dense, but finite resource from the earth. The extraction is coming to an end (No, we won't hear "Yep, thats the last barrel. Lets all go home." but just imagine what the cost of extracting one of the last billion barrels will be.)

Fifth, While we still have enough oil to burn we should dedicate it to improving efficiencies anywhere and everywhere. Why do we tolerate the heat losses from residential water heaters or through poorly insulated homes? Why do we cut timber, mill lumber, transport it, and then tear down the buildings we have made with it after a lifespan of five or ten years? Our energy usage habits are abysmal but we have a much better chance to change them for the better if we change before we have to.

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#96
In reply to #95

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/20/2008 4:34 PM

I agree with most of what you said and applaud your saying it. Go on Oprah, Leno, the View and say it. We need serious leadership because at some point, maybe not today or next week, we will see peak oil reserves and the decline will begin. Countries will start to do strange things. Those with reserves will hoard them and ration them and get uppity. Those without will get panicky and act irrational.

There are better ways of conserving and powering up our lives, but few incentives for doing so. I hope we can have a voice of reason like yours to show us the way.

Unfortunately, the current voices are usually attached to someone with an agenda who preaches down to us mortal sinners and then departs in his Gulfstream. Or worse, a politician with a silver tongue and a big stick.

Necessity can be a cruel mother, but I think if we let the free market alone it will work out OK, with a little sage advice, that is.

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#89

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/20/2008 1:27 AM

Yes , We are too much dependent on Oil now. But we did not have it 150 years ago? TV we did not have 50 years back ? Automobile we are having 100 years plus .

Autombiles have been found best to run on oil compared to any other alternate energy yet. But huge research is going on every where and with prices galloping , they are likly to be more cost effective than oil.

Dont you think the oil price rise is very surprising ? Plot a graph and see what's happening. And who is making the money ? Aparet from oil companies all these hedege funds are making huge money. These funds move around on various commodities. Till recently they were on metals. Now they find oil is a good place.

Now what is happening to these extra money earned by oil companies or the countries ? Where and how they are going to spend this windfall money ? Armaments to terrorists or inflation.

Now let us consider the place where you are in. The country and its facility are built on cars. " Of the car, by the car and for the car". you have banks /food places from where you can buy from car. You have nice homes 50/60 miles away and drive by car everyday to place of work. You have goods available only in large supermarkets where you have to go for miles to pick up for 1 weeks provision.

You have cars having 3 litre engines and one/two occupant. You could have travelled the same distance in an 0.8 litre engine in same time and consuming less fuel.

You have all these and have been a great per capita consumer.

And you are dependent on oil heavily. So ....?

Now Consider staying in high rises in large flats in a small Land area with all facilities in walking distance. Like if you stay and work in Manhattan.

What ever travel you do within city is by Electric bikes or car. Intercity you move by public transport air/rail/bus/by car also.

Will not your oil consumptions come down drastically?

Now when you have this kind of city , how much area will be released for farming by bulldozing all the nice Bunglows/houses ? so that is added benefit?

Basically if you dont use oil , you have to use another energy and again that will have price rise. So why not use the legs/e bikes/or electric cars whichever fits the use based on environment. And have compact cities in 4 squaremiles , accomodating 50 squaremiles of population ? And Forget Oil.

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#93

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/20/2008 8:23 AM

Joyce,

Did you see this article in todays CR4?

http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2007/01/king_of_the_hypermilers.html

This is taking things to the extreme is get better mpg!

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#94
In reply to #93

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/20/2008 12:43 PM

THAT is Stupid, Dangerous, and several times NOT LEGAL -

for a REAL solution - fix the FUEL system

Look Here for a SAFE LEGAL way to fuel SAVINGS

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#98

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/23/2008 3:26 PM

W/hat ever became of the gas turbines that Ford installed in over the road tractors. I think it was the mid 80's. For that matter what about the Chrysler turbine car we saw at the 64-65 world's fair?

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Location: Hilltowns of MA
Posts: 24
Good Answers: 1
#99
In reply to #98

Re: What I have and have not seen in 61 years

06/23/2008 9:01 PM

Hi thank you for your interest. I agree anything that would have caused the oil companies to lose revenue seems to just... disappear never to be heard of again.

I managed hotels for a couple of years and during that time meet two different people. One was running a car on ""wood"" no idea how that would work and wouldn't it smoke? The other person was running on steam that I think was very old technology. These cars were build by private people. I wish I had taken their names and contact information.

As I have stated a number of times which seems to upset some naive people. I truly believe the technology is out there.. but not offered to us, Americans.

Have a nice day

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Joyce
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