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Statistics Homework Question

07/11/2008 10:09 AM

Yes! This is a homework question, but I don't want the numerical answer, I want the understanding of how to work the problem so that I can explain it to someone.

Here is the question:

A researcher conducts a T test for dependent means in which it is predicted that there will be a decrease in unemployment from before to after a particular job-skills training program. The cutoff "t" needed is -1.8333. The standard deviation of the distribution of means of change scores is 2.0 and the mean change score for the sample studied is an increase of 5.2.

What is the t score?

here is where I am leaning on this problem (so far).

First, let's look at the definition for T.


T = [ (Average of Sample) - (Presumed Average of larger Population)] / [((Standard Deviation of Sample) / (Square Root of the Sample Size))]

Let's break up the terms so that we can pick this apart.

I will start with the devisor in the equation.

My best guess is that ((Standard Deviation of Sample) / (Square Root of the Sample Size)) is the same thing as The standard deviation of the distribution of means of change scores = 2.0.

I am having a very hard time getting a definition of change scores, but when I do I may modify my thoughts here.

My best guess for the numerator above ((Average of Sample) - (Presumed Average of larger Population)) the divisor is the mean change score for the sample studied is an increase = 5.2.

If we plug these two terms into the equation we get:

T = 5.2/2.0 = 2.60

Now here is the disclaimer! My understanding of statistics is very shaky at best, so I want to ask you some questions in hope that you might know where to look to answer them.

First, the denominator. What does the ((Standard Deviation of Sample) / (Square Root of the Sample Size)) mean? My tendency was to assign that term to the standard deviation of the means of the change scores. I can't substantiate that yet, so I will keep looking.

Second, the numerator. The quiz question stated the the mean change score for the sample studied is an increase of 5.2. What did that increase from? That implies a "difference" in my mind, so I looked at the (Average of Sample) - (Presumed Average of larger Population) as being a difference of means and if change scores is defined as a difference of means, it seemed like a good fit. Again, I am guessing by 80-90% here because I don't have a good definition for change scores and the increase cited in the quiz.

What disturbs me is the cutoff T needed is cited as –1.8333. I don't see how this relates to the problem and it implies something opposite of where I am going. So what is the relationship between the cutoff T and the T score?

Can anyone help plug up the holes in my understanding? I know, they are big holes, but I have to start somewhere.

Thanks in advance!

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#1

Re: Statistics Homework Question

07/11/2008 12:47 PM

Sorry I can't help...but it would help if the person who wrote the question was literate.
The lack of punctuation doesn't help, and the question seems deliberately convoluted.
I hate this sort of thing, real world questions should be writen in a 'real world' way...I'd rather have coloquial English which is understandable than gobbledegook like this ..

Sorry rant over.

Del

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: Statistics Homework Question

07/11/2008 1:21 PM

"real world questions..."

Obviously, you don't read emails!

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#5
In reply to #1

Re: Statistics Homework Question

07/12/2008 6:40 AM

Hear, hear!

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#3

Re: Statistics Homework Question

07/11/2008 1:40 PM

Sorry from me as well... I like statistics, but like a lot of things different people change terminology so that I have to end up thinking what is a 'T' value?

It probably translates into something obvious but with out my usual terminology I'm a bit lost.

John.

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#4
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Re: Statistics Homework Question

07/11/2008 1:55 PM

Loosely, a T score lets you tell the significance of a sample taken from the overall population. An analogous function would be the Chi Square.


Where is Roger when you need him?

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#6

Re: Statistics Homework Question

07/12/2008 8:03 AM

The student t-distribution is used when you have sample data (sample Standard deviation) and are trying to estimate population properties. The fact that s rather than sigma ( sample std deviaition rather than population deviation) is in the denominator is first clue. The denominator using s rather than sigma divided by sqr root of n is a parameter called the standard error. Lets leave it at that for now.

The standard error is not distributed per Z, It is distributed per t- based on sample size. The different (small) sample sizes result in slightly different distributions,based on the resulting "degrees of freedom" which is a complicated way of saying sample sizes.

The t distribution approximates the normal for smaller sample sizes. At larger sample sizes, it essentially becomes the normal.

t distributions are slightly flatter and have slightly more probability in the tails than does the normal distribution.

for degrees of freedom greater than 30, the t distribution is practically identical to the normal gaussian distribution.

So back to your question, you're using t because you don't know the population std deviation (sigma) you know only sample std deviation s. so the denominator is the std error s/sqrroot of sample size) and the std error of the sample follows the distribution of t.

Hope that helps, I'm sure that noone explained that "why" business about the std error to you in lecture. I know I had to figure it out myself.

What the t value will tell you is if the difference between the mean that you have in the sample is statistically significantly different from the mean of the population. If you do not exceed the t "cutoff value"then the null hypothesis applies, and it is said that the sample does not differ sigificantly from the population.

milo "the real test is if Del can understand this"

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#7
In reply to #6

Re: Statistics Homework Question

07/12/2008 8:28 AM

ROFLMAO at the last line

I don't think cats are 'into' statistics, but he might understand the meaning of 'cut off' and vet LOL

John.

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#10
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Re: Statistics Homework Question

07/12/2008 10:52 AM

Thanks! This helps put more pieces of the puzzle together.

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#12
In reply to #6

Re: Statistics Homework Question

07/12/2008 4:39 PM

Yup I geddit...it's one of those stupid things where the pillock getting the data shouldn't have been so lazy...if they'd just got a few more data they could have had meaningfull results instead of a crock of shite.

I always go for the 30 data...keeps the stats simple and beleivable...
The problem with stats is they are meaningless when applied to bad data from non-normal distributions...something that plenty of people conveniently forget.

A sample of 100 people (who happen to shop at a specific place at a certain time on a particular day....not a representative sample.... Or 9 out of 10 Cats ...who don't subscribe to CR4)

Pencil me in for enless moaning about statistics...
75% of my rants would have ended by now...

Del

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#13
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Re: Statistics Homework Question

07/12/2008 5:37 PM

Yes you do!

"The problem with stats is they are meaningless when applied to bad data from non-normal distributions...something that plenty of people conveniently forget."

milo

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#8

Re: Statistics Homework Question

07/12/2008 10:22 AM

Trying to do your homework at CR4?.... Hmmmmm.

My knowledge of statistics isn't too good and the statistic English terminology even poorer, but Milo answer sounds well.

P.D: It's really your homework? or rather your children/grand children homework?

Kind regards

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#9
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Re: Statistics Homework Question

07/12/2008 10:52 AM

My girlfriend is taking a statistics course as part of her undergraduate studies. Since she is doing this on-line she doesn't get a lecture. So I was trying to help fill that gap, but unfortunately, found myself confused. One of the issues was the definition of "Change Score", which is alien to me as an engineer. I was never able to find a useful definition.

It seems that vocabulary is 50% of the problem when it comes to understanding. Many times I come to realize that I already know the subject matter, but for some reason, someone decided to change the names of things so they can force people to relearn it.

My goal is to understand the subject matter so I can help teach it to my girlfriend and defend her 4.0 GPA. Right now this has got her pretty rattled and she is out at the bookstore looking for Statistics for Dummies books. I could use the refresh for my own benefit, too.

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#11
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Re: Statistics Homework Question

07/12/2008 11:24 AM

The "change scores" is what is being measured by the agency.It might mean grades of people after taking the training, or it might mean the change in the number of people becoming subsequently unemployed. We don't know from the wording, but suffice it to say, the change score is the thing being measured.

in the population the mean(average) of the change scores is 2.0.

In the sample, the mean (average of the change scores is 5.2

While that looks different,5.2> 2.0! what the t test will tell us is what is the probability that a sample of n (degrees of freedom) taken from the population with a mean of 2.0, will have a sample mean of 5.2.

I agree on the need for understanding the vocab, but in statistics and economics, its knowing what the tools are supposed to do, not just what they are called, that gives you confidence to use them.

I'm certain that if she has a 4.0 and she's frantic, everyone else is pathological.

The trick isn't just to do the calculation, its to know what the calculation is designed to do.

The t test is designed to tell you if the difference between two means is significant.

with small samples.

milo

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#14
In reply to #9

Re: Statistics Homework Question

07/12/2008 11:00 PM

Seems a make work worker has over simplified the section and caused it to seem complicated. Pull the weeds and compute.

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#15
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Re: Statistics Homework Question

07/13/2008 3:57 AM

Some of these remote learneing courses are crap...guy at work did an electronics one...it was a complete joke...full of misprints, questions with missing information and gobbledegook. And like you say confusing vocabulary...obviously written by someone who hadn't done electronics in the last 50 years! It was also being marked by a drunken illiterate. He got a D on one paper which was perfectly ok (I'd checked it)...they sent it to another tutor for moderation...it came back as an A !

Del

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#16
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Re: Statistics Homework Question

07/13/2008 8:46 PM

"He got a D on one paper which was perfectly ok (I'd checked it)...they sent it to another tutor for moderation...it came back as an A !"

Its really difficult to "read" the professor in those online courses, hence the big disparity between an A and a D when you yourself can vouch for the content.

It takesour emoticons, lots of photos inserted, and a heck of a sense of humor and presumption of goodwill to keep things normal here, let alone for a grade...

milo

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#17

Update

07/13/2008 9:05 PM

She got an A on her test!

Just made it with 90%. So far the class average is 42% All scores will be in by Tuesday.

Thanks to all for helping to light the path.

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#18
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Re: Update

07/13/2008 9:10 PM

TA Da!

Good job. milo

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#19
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Re: Update

07/14/2008 2:14 AM

Great...maybe she can explain it to us .

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