Greater efficiency; conductive liquid/ materials?

Hello Cash,

That's an ambitious project. Good luck.

Silver is only a little more conductive than copper (maybe 8~9%), so it wouldn't be justified for most applications. Likewise, you can often make a motor or alternator more efficient by running it in a vacuum, but the extra costs of putting the seals on the shaft, running coolant through the motor, running a vacuum make-up, and so on usually only are justified for very large units. I would definitely not put a conductive liquid in there.

thank you, well ive developed makeshift plans for a magnetic motor/generator. ya know how gas is... ive made a small one, gets the light bulb to glow, all that jazz, now just working on making it bigger and efficient so the output is more then the input. workn on that before i post anything online talking about how im going to destableize the oil industry, dont want any hit men after me workn for big oil or ford and GM haha. anything else you can throw my way would be appreciated

"Output is more than the input"??? You're going to have the thermodynamics police after you. They're even more dangerous than big oil and big auto together.

Ive read the laws of physics, I don't see how it breaks any of those laws... You push a large object down a hill, the hill uses gravity to speed it up, thus gaining momentum greater than the original force...

1 magnet with an inert force of repelling 1 lb per square inch, is pushed by 3 more equal sized magnets, just their presence repels that one magnet with 3 times its own force. attach to a pendulum, you have an outside force in a complete circle, on the inside of that circle you add a RING magnet, constantly pulling in wards, like earths gravity, you then have magnets "Orbiting" a larger magnet while attached to an axle. just like a pulley system allows you to achieve greater force then your capable of.

No laws are broken there, unless I'm mistaken... with magnets angled in a specific direction drag is extremely low, added with a low rpm alternator, and windings around all the movable parts. condense it into a sealed disc with stainless steel to amplify any escaping magnetism. i haven't gotten that far, thats after i find more ways of efficiency.

To use your example, when you push the object uphill, it gaines potential energy. When it moes downhill, it trades that potential energy for kinetic energy. At the bottom off the hill, the kinetic energy of the object will be equal to the potential energy at the top-the friction losses on the way down.

Momentum=mass x velocity Energy=mass x velocity squared. Momentum can be gained, energy cannot.

Upon reading other comments in this thread, I suspect that you may of stated a goal incorrectly. You said that you wanted output greater than input. This is impossible for a system. If the battery is not part of the system, it becomes very possible. Or, if you want to amplify current at the expense of voltage (or vice versa), this is possible. What is not possible to increase total power out compared to power in. This would be a perpetual motion machine, and that's what I was referring to.

Concur - you can increase efficiency, but you cannot surpass (or even reach, for that matter) a 1:1 [input:output] ratio. That's what is called, I believe, an "over unity" device, and the best ones are powered by snake oil, not magnets...

Hello cashman,

The only reason I can think to use conductive fluids/gas is to focus lines of magnetic force to increase the field effect. The problem comes with the denser more viscus the fluid/gas conductor the more drag it will create.

For efficiency look into poly phase induction motors (another project)

Brad

thank you brad, kind sir. yes that would indeed help, three phase wiring i believe is your meaning if im not mistaken? that is my intent with my motor. using electro magnets for propulsion against nib magnets, if a gas or liquid was used (drag aside) would the opposing force between the two types of magnets decrease?

limitless amount of info abailable on the net, i am yet unable to find an answer to several questions, i know things of this nature have been tested, but by who?

cashman68bam,

If I may be nebby, what sort of project are you up to? Are you building motors?

Hello cashman,

I've been out of town and just got back.

Polyphase means more than one, usually 3 or more (poly = many).

If you are rectifying your AC polyphase to DC then the more phases the smoother the output.

As for reducing the opposing force of the magnets, that is the induced current and voltage of your output. As the wires cut the magnetic lines of force from the permanent magnets your electrical power is pushed through your windings.

Reduction of stray currents called eddy currents will increase efficiency and so will focusing your lines of magnetic force into higher gauss densities. High 90% efficiency generators are available off the shelf so unless your application needs something unique a few percent just don't justify the work (unless it is to learn).

Conductive gas or liquids would need to support higher gauss densities than iron to be practical and other than some hot plasmas I don't know of any(of course the only plasmas I'm knowledgeable of are used in LASERs).

I'm starting working on a poly phase generator with my electrical engineer, but we are going 12 phase(for other reasons).

Brad

liquid mercury by chance? its a poor metal, but is it conductive? or heavy water? does it have to be hot? if my large scale motor had the same rpm as a normal gas motor and created the same amount of heat, the mercury would become a gas. but i don't think the voltage in copper would reach anywhere near 600 F. I just figured a liquid or gas around the outside of the copper would help as a coolant, and if it were conductive some of the excess heat and electricity could be contained. just a thought.

Gas motors today are nothing like the originals, improvements in efficiency have been made for multiple decades. if i can gather all the parts necessary to make it more efficient then that said 90% generator, if it were even 95%... would it not be justified? I honestly believe my motor "Bends" those laws everyone keeps telling me. magnets have a power source of their own, and magnets are free energy after the 2 dollars i bought them with. my small device lights a bulb with a few rotations, the way it is set up, it keeps up perpetual motion for about 30 seconds after the initial "boost" from an electro magnet, keeping the bulb lit for about 15 seconds. then gravity and a few other outside factors kick in and slow it down. the armatures weigh 5 lbs with the magnets on them. the magnets surrounding them have a combined strength to lift 10 lbs. apx. not including the electro magnets. so the work required to keep the magnets in motion is nearly zip. with a good deal coming out. I don't care if people believe me, but id still appreciate any help in efficiency as possible.

also, I'm having trouble with timing of the electromagnets... once the permanent magnets spin fast enough the electromagnets begin to miss and its wasting energy firing at dead air. How could i wire them to ONLY fire when a permanent magnet is directly in front of it during rotation? or for the matter after a certain speed, right before the magnet is in front of the EM. thanks

Outside a dog a book is mans best friend, inside a dog is too dark to read-Groucho Marx

As for a electrical conductive coolant, not a good idea. The possibility of short circuits as stated by others.

Mercury is even worse, (great conductor as a plasma) it amalgamates with other metals.

As for thermally conductive materials, unless you are going below ambient temperature, air is hard to beat.

Upper 90% is 97-98% (my miscommunication)

The timing issue is complex because any active system uses energy at the cost of efficiency. Also the electromagnets field is not instantly at maximum so at high RPMs you may have to advance the timing just a bit to get peek efficiency. You could look into automotive magnetic ignition triggers for some ideas.

I think you will find that your motor is getting close to unity not over unity. I do believe over unity is possible just not probable.

Brad.

Indeed, i have read many of your discussions on the same topic, and all the other threads about the false profits of todays alternative energy sources. my motor as i call it is a bit different then most of the so called free energy devices out there. its not really free, but a hell of a lot cheaper and more efficient then gas motors. as for details, i can sum it up...

18 NIB magnets around the circumference of a circle, with 6 electromagnets amongst them. in the center of the circle i have placed 3 large ring earth magnets, one slightly smaller then the other with a 1 inch gap between, in that gap i placed several more NIB magnets attached to swing arms/ fly wheel. i use 3 different ways of harnessing magnetic energy. the electro magnets give propulsion in a clockwise direction how i have it set up, the other magnets help decrease the resistance. on the center shaft i place an alternator to turn.

B.A.M. Battery, alternator, motor, uses electro magnets as a spark plug, swing arms as magnetic pistons, no combustion, or exhaust. when i make a large scale version and put 3 phase copper wiring around the main rotating discs, the input should then be justified. as they would be spinning 3 times faster then the alternator itself. small scale works, I'm just looking for more efficiency before i waste my time with a bigger one to put in a car.

I refuse to post video because unlike Edison, i wish to make a profit. video however will be available after i consult with a local manufacturing company and begin production, ever hear of winnebago motor homes.

Outside a dog a book is mans best friend, Inside a dog is too dark to read-Groucho Marx

a thought on the "better wire" for windings. You might look at hex, square or rectangular cross section wire for a better fill on your windings. These are typically used in the audio world to cram in more wire by reducing the air pockets around the windings. Winding is more difficult since the wire must be kept in alignment to give you any gain.

Scooter

A conductive liquid would create a dead short. A vaccuum would only reduce drag upon the armature through the air. Your real focus should be upon the bearings: perhaps you are thinking, "I could center and spin the shaft ends in magnetic fields!", but remember the spinning armature creates strong dynamic magnetic fields of its own, so mag. fields seem to be a non-starter. Look at needle bearings or roller bearings to support the shaft...and then remember that the load upon the motor imparts rotating angular loads upon the shaft bearings. These waters have been fished pretty hard, but, hey, good luck.

Dear cashman68bam: Very Intersting. You mentioned silver coated with copper , Did you by chance mean Silver Coated Copper? I 've worked with Relays that had Copper Movable Contacts that were Coated with Silver. It had a great advantage over plain Copper Contacts in that when the contacts showed Pitting, putting AC current through them while Swithing on & off the Silver warmed up and flowed & filled the pitted spots, much better restoration method than Burnishing Any Type of Contact Material. These Relays were made by Allen Bradley, You could check with them, to see if they have tried any Silver coated Copper Windings or not. Enjoy the Progress you are Likely to Make. Mr.Retired Fixit/Diesel Electric Mechanic - Carl.

thank you all, square wire, peculiar concept... will look into it. with alternators current is the main key, to increase voltage id have to use larger magnets, or more of them. unless i make the permanent magnets also electro magnets and route some of the output back into the magnets and make them stronger increasing voltage without increasing current... I don't for-see that working well enough though.

As for regulation, I'm not sure i fully understand your meaning. to control the input and output? to control the excess heat from the windings? storage of energy? or the basic principle of achieving rotation with as little work involved with enough output to continually recharge the input?

The rotation is simple, 6 electro magnets using timing, 2 triangles. 1,2,3 and A,B,C. 2 C Batteries can power each electro magnet with 500 lbs of magnetism. right now my regulation of them is not perfect, I power them at 1/4 of their strength and they are wired to the controls of strobe lights, the faster they "blink" the faster the rotation.

Bearings have been suggested several times, and I completely am ignorant on that subject, i know i need good bearings, but for what purpose other then spinning are they useful for?

Also i have an idea of placing windings around the armature's, since they are spinning and several magnets are fixed around them, could i also capture electricity that way?

Outside a dog a book is mans best friend, Inside a dog is too dark to read-Groucho Marx

No! current is NOT necessarily the main key. POWER output is!

To get more voltage from the same strength magnetic field, you need to increase the number of turns of wire. You would not necessarily need larger magnets. Suggest you review your generator principles 101 once again. Also do a refresher of basic electricity 201 course might be in order.

Polar Power has been doing something along the lines of what you are suggesting as has eCycle. Both companies offer generators using permanent magnet motor / generators. For that matter have a look at Solomon Technologies.

I rejected all three companies for some recent designs for various technical reasons. One client considered the cost exorbitant. Another client did not like the lack of voltage regulation. So we went back to a modified version of conventional technology.

The practical use of power requires control and that in turn means you must have some means of regulating your output. If you are using two groups of 3 magnets then you are already configuring a 3 phase system.

Bearings are not just for spinning. Bearings are for reducing friction which is a loss of efficiency unless the friction is used for dynamic braking. Hate to say it, but you seem to be lacking a grounding in some of the basic theory needed to make your project effective.

Unless you can prove it is more efficient than existing designs already out there, it becomes nothing more than an interesting experiment. That doesn't means it don't work; only that it is not efficient enough.

A friend of mine first built a permanent magnet generator some 10 years ago. It has taken until now for this concept to gain acceptance and for several companies to build practical versions that can be built on a production basis and is used industrially. good luck!

thank you, yes my education is lacking in those principals, not for too long i hope. Ignorance is not bliss i know. This winter i will be continuing my education in Wind turbine technician/engineer major. I'm hoping that will increase my knowledge and further understanding. If nothing else i hope to at least either prove myself wrong, prove others wrong, or just learn how to build my own turbine and take myself off the grid. In the meantime my ignorance fools me into belief that this works. Like Edison's incandescent light bulb, after hundreds of different variations and filaments, 1 finally rose above all else and worked.

what do you know about heavy water?

for flat square or hex wire look at voice coil wire manufacturers.

As for bearings, feel free to contact me on the subject. I do a lot of work with fairly high RPM (25,000 to 450,000 rpm) and extremely low drag bearings. For your purpose you might need to go to a ceramic bearing to eliminate eddy current braking from the bearings.

ceramic bearing? could a ceramic magnet bearing be made then? lined with stainless steel to compensate for any current loss. or would that just be pointless. I figure if i can find any way to improve efficiency to make up for the heat loss and the input it would benefit in the long wrong. tinkering and dumb ideas have got me this far.

anything magnetic in the bearings sets up eddy currents that produce braking. Every time I've experienced unexpected power loss and can't blame on broken or worn parts, I've gotten it back by demagnetizing rotating parts including the bearings.

The reason I suggested the ceramic bearings is that they can be more impervious to the stray magnetic fields than steel bearings.

ok I understand now what you mean. when i first started i made the mistake of fastening down my magnets with regular bolts and screws. The iron in them kept interfering and slowing down the magnets, i since switched to aluminum and plastic clips.

now just for purposes that i like to be difficult, if i were to put a belt on my contraption and run it to 3 or 4 alternators, how much extra resistance does each alternator contain that i would have to increase torque and speed? as i am using less then 1/4 of my electro magnets potential it wouldn't be a problem.

If you hear of a man going to the hospital because a magnet flew threw his chest, you will know if i was successful ha-ha.

Good Lord, man - stand off to the side!

food for thought. You might want to consider stainless or non magnetically conductive materials for your main shaft and possibly even the mounts for your neo magnets so that their energy is not bled away to places you don't want.

As for torque on an alternator, they can produce a pretty high load and then your talking about multiples of that load with additional units.

If you need more torque, increase the lever (radius) on your rotating parts. You might have to work with a lower RPM but you can work out the balance of torque vs. RPM. You also have your gear(belt) ratios to play with for optimization.

Scooter

If you hear of a man going to the hospital because a magnet flew threw his chest, you will know if i was successful ha-ha.

REPLY

My friend also had that problem when he first started experimenting. the solution is to employ a restraining ring around the magnets. Since you probably want a non magnetic material consider using something like the ballistic protection materials used in vests and blast blankets. Drag racers place a blanket of this material around the bell housing to protect against exploding clutch plate assemblies. you might also consider using kevlar belts around the rim to restrain the magnets. the centrifugal forces at high RPM is considerable.

I was wondering why the substation next to my work has signs all over it saying "Caution 115,000 volts" I'd kept wondering why they went so high, now I do.

Kevlar shrouds are very good as are spectra. For a "home project" polycarbonate makes a good shield material. Its easily heat formed, it can be bonded or put together with fasteners. Polycarbonate is what's used for most safety glasses and a number of other "high impact" windows.

Cashman,

Go for it. Glad to see somebody tinkering and trying stuff. The only guidance I might offer is that there isn't any retrievable energy in magnets. You can use them to do work, sort of like you'd use a lever, but they won't do work themselves. Oh, and stay away from mercury - it's no good around electricity since it conducts really well. Try dry nitrogen if you want to put something in your motor; just remember you'll never get perfect seals, so you'll have to do some makeup. Good luck.