Draining and Grading Plan - What is required?

Our farm was on the water shed program 30 years ago, and the county extension office was doing an analysis for drainage and runoff. They would send out a "pencil neck" engineer and turn a $5,000.00 project into a $200,000.00 project and say this is how you do it. To get any kind of subsidy from the government.

The ones that did it that way, the designs failed with in 5 years. the farmers that took it upon themselves their drainage is still successful.

The new "pencil neck" from the county extension office said they were learning at the time.

Does anybody remember the character "Hank Kimball" on the TV sitcom "Green Acres".

Good morning, cgpedersen, thx for the excellent post! That's just the kind of advice I was looking for.

A grading and drainage plan is simple. They are drawn for pretty much an new development, facility, etc.. It is quite simply a topographic plan showing the intended final grades of the property that includes drainage facilities, show some of the flow vectors for drainage and drainage collectors/conveyance. In areas where you do not intend to modify the existing drainage of the site you must connect the proposed new construction grading to the existing topographic map and show where the water will drain. You should have a existing survey of the site showing site topography around the facility. Also, in densely wooded areas many surveying instruments will not work, as they need a clear line of site to either the surveyor or to the satellite, and desne tree cover tends to obstruct this. All they want to know is what is you proposed final grades and where will runoff drain. You will need to meet the minimum requirement s for drainage under the local building codes, this you should research with your local building department.

Thx RCE for your wise input. I will endeavor to follow your advice to a T. The owner, or client, has a builder's level and pole which we will use to generate an effective topographic map of the site. The County said to show existing contour lines in dashed, and intended contours in solid, both on the Site Plan.

Draining and grading plans are public record so you could find one filed for a similar property.

Good morning bwire, thx for a great post. I will look into it.

good answer

Hello phoenix911:

I thank you sir! I live partly in the UK and in Europe, and it seems wherever an Agency can 'interfere' they will. It usually ends up costing more time and money than you can afford. With a little tractor or a couple of shovels, and a friend to hold one end of the water level and some thought, like a roughed out plan as to where you want the building so you can make all land leading to it slope, if only slightly away.

Or, you can make a 'moat' round the entire building with drainage in it leading out to the lower slopes. Line the drainage moat round the house fill with good strong concrete to withing say 20cm of the top then fill the last bit with aggregate, shingle, pea shingle, whatever as long as the foundation/floor to the house is high enough to stop water washing in after a flood. The water will flow through the shingle and around the building.

good luck to the original poster.

stay safe

babybear

Good morning, babybear. Great suggestion! I'm thinking, if the lot size is about 100 feet wide, we could get a ~120 foot length of 1/4" clear plastic tube and mark it say 1 foot from each end; fill it to those marks with H2O, then as my client walks from position to position, I could sketch each contour line for a topographical map.

Hello flyinghigh:

Sounds good. Doing it this way there is no 'estimating' needed at all.

You may find it easier to knock posts in to allow you to hold the water level so the mark is at the top of the post? Put the posts in straight lines. Dig out by hand or tractor (this is why I surgest the straight lines), leaving the posts which you can then be removed by hand. You may need to dig small holes for the posts to find the right slopes. But this is only a surgestion OK.

It is really easy using a water level. I would say mark one end as you say and, the other in increments of sau 1cm/or 1 inch down from the first mark, away from the end of the pipe. You can the work out and arrange the levels with no other measure to test the reached level.

Hope this is clear.

You may find the reply I sent to pheonix911 (I think) useful for the over all design of the run off water flows.

Hope this makes sense.........

stay safe

babybear

The County isn't trying to design this grading plan, they are just trying to determine in he has a plan and if it makes sense.

Hello cgpedersen:

I accept that. Designs have to seen to be safe.

If you have a design you know will work, it is often hard to dissuade Other Agencies taking over saying they know best or it is the law. I know because I have been there. Not in the States but in the UK. You have to believe in what you are doing and have fathomed the reasons for particular shapes and forms and make sure you get your thoughts over to the Agents on site. After all, it is your personal money in the project, not theirs.

stay safe

babybear

There is more CRAP flying around this thread than I have seen in a long time. Clearly, not a single one of these patrons has a clue as to what the SITE AND DRAINAGE PLAN IS SUPPOSE TO ACCOMPLISH!

The property owner is responsible for the rain water that falls upon his property. The Building Dept doesn't care if you flood your own cellar. They only care if you contribute to flooding of public property or your neighbors property. The thread poster doesn't know what the local requirements are. Therefore; he is well advised to consult with a local residential site developer to find what his responsibilities will be. Likely this party can refer the owner to someone who can provide these plans. Surveyers often can refer an owner in the right direction and can provide an acceptable topo and survey that will ultimately be less expensive than the do it your self property owner screwing up first and then having to hire professionals to correct his mistakes.

Where ever you go! There you are!

TMF

Hello Toomuchfun:

let me say firstly I am not getting at you and this is not meant as an insult OK?

I know something of the UK planning rules. I also know that in the UK you have to get plans to build a house or any other building of a certain type and size but, this would include residential places.

Right, so you either draw a properly proportioned plan with ground levels, water levels, and drain inverts depth and drain 'fall'

If you get the plan passed as safe by what is usually the local Council or authority you can get someone in to do the work or do part or all the work yourself.

If as I advised you use a water level, if only to work out the 'fall' before any work starts it can save a lot of time and, you do not need line-of-site, as you would with a Theodolite. In fact the two people holding the ends of the water level pipe do not need to see each other at all to work out any levels. I say this thinking there may be forest or heavy brush on the site.

As I understand it in the UK a Council official comes and checks and measures after certain points of work are complete. Now I do not know about all States in the USA. But in the UK u get a check after the ground work has been completed, and I am not sure what the others are, but, they could be after the drains are dug, then after the drain are fitted with concrete drain rings and cast iron gulley's, then after the first footings are done, then after the first 'lift' to the first floor level etc.

So you can see the Local Authorities are involved all along and you cannot go on to the next step until you get the 'nod' from them.

There is nothing to say you cannot do the work but you will probably be asked for a plan of site visits and what is expected at each point. There is nothing that can be done if something is done wrongly. It has to be knocked down or taken apart and done again if it does not match exactly to the plan.

So if as in this case the original poster wants to 'level' or clear the site then work out the levels which will already be on the plans, he can go ahead, or not. It really depends on his finances. And, of course on any visits the local Authority plans to make. If, as I imagine someone from the local Authority visits regularly then I can't see how anything can get that screwed up. But that is only my opinion, OK.

As I said this is meant in a kind advisory way not as a dig at you Toomuchfun.

I know something of the UK, I know nothing about how the US go about the same thing, IE building houses.

stay safe

babybear

And babybear, I certainly do not wish to insult you. However I should advise you that I am a retired Licensed commercial and residential building contractor. I have constructed both houses and commercial buildings, parking areas , underground drainage, bridges ,railroads, and some roadway construction. I have constructed homes in the most regulated area of this country, that is the Greater Lake Tahoe Basin. I can assure you that the Uk as well as all of Europe are heavily regulated, however no place that I know of is as strictly regulated as the LTB. In fact I have constructed buildings on the west coast, the east coast the north east and the south east areas of these United States. I have had to deal with three uniquely different building codes regarding the various parts of this nation. Some of these areas were pancake flat, while others were on the sides of mountains., Some on sand others mostly rocky, and some on muck. When I say that a novice should consult a professional, I am making a very qualified statement. Depending where this proposed construction is to take place , will have everything to do with the local requirements. If the thread proposer is planning construction in the greater desert area of Southern Arizona he likely will find the site planning requirements much different than in the mountainous area around Flagstaff. I believe that when it comes to providing advice to a do it your self party in this nation I am a little more qualified to do so. No offense intended.

Where ever you go! There you are!

Toomuchfun

Hello Toomuchfun:

You sound just like my uncle talking about what done. Though he never had anywhere near as much experience as you. I think you sound really interesting.

I certainly wasn't expecting that kind of response, but, hey better out than in ?

What I tried to get over, perhaps not very well, was the way things work in the UK and, if it was anything like that in the US there would be some sort of official body looking at what he was doing, or at what his ground worker, brickies etc were doing. There to help, as in the UK. So though it sounds like he is going to what he wants with a free hand he will not be allowed to do so. And the only advice I gave initially was for him to work out the levels with a water level. He may need to dig a hole or two to get the levels required in his plans. Actually it sounds like he has no plans at this moment. He never mentioned I do not think so anyway.

Look Toomuchfun: I said I was not getting at you in any way. please accept it. because it is the truth, OK. I come on here to relax not for an argument my friend. I am sincere so please be reasonable. I thank you for getting back to me, thanks.

If the original poster has passed plans ready to start work he may be on here some time and, as he or his builders work, he will need yet more advice. Which is where you can come in and explain and advise him, as you have the best qualifications.

As I recall he was asking about how to get the levels on his site and allow for water dispersal. I have experience in that field. Now my part I feel is over and the building start. so thats your part. If you want to that is.

Take care and I really do wish you all the best..............

babybear

It sounds like you have a wide range of experience.

Southern Arizona he likely will find the site planning requirements much different than in the mountainous area around Flagstaff.

That is very true, given a choice, would you rather have a book smart person with no experience doing it, or someone that knows the lay of the land and ground type.

In our case we our farm was located on the Niagara escarpment. And keeping the ground water clean was a high priority.

I apologize for the edge on my earlier post. I was just relaying the experience we had with these experts.

Also there are allot of government agency to satisfy, EPA, DNR, local zoning, ect...

And on the west coast I had designed equipment in CA, and these regulations between to different agencies can contradict themselves.

phoenix911

Hello phoenix911:

I remember on one of my Uncles sites, can't recall where, there was a 'fresh' surveyor from uni asking the ground workers for advice and it was his job to work out level and slopes etc, and tell the ground workers! It was ridiculous. Why do they allow a 19 year old to effectively run the site? It is a nonsense. No one should be out there on his or her own before say, 25 or so. By then they will of absorbed some common sense and have experience. And the only way he could would was with a scientific computer. What happens when he drops it in a trench?

stay safe

babybear

There are a lot of water shed areas in these united states, as a matter of fact they exist all over this nation. Many of the Governmental agencies, are staffed by over zelous engineers who's employment requires them to be creative regarding coming up with ideas for protecting the environment. Often they go too far with their creative ideas that lead to regulations that simply are not in the best interest of anyone but themselves, seeing that these same engineers are going to be the same persons who will be approving/disapproving the site and drainage plans and inspecting the work. No doubt there are environmentally sensitive areas through out this nation that need to be protected, but the cost of this protection should not be for the property owner alone to bear. I am aware of many areas of this nation in which the property owner is restricted from covering more than 10% of his property with impervious coverage, And the property next door is a paved parking lot. "Regarding this thread" Not enough information has been provided by it's creator to enable any of us to provide a intelligent answers for his problem. That is why I suggested he seek information from local site work contractors. "I said nothing about employing one of them ".

Toomuchfun

Many of the Governmental agencies, are staffed by over zelous engineers who's employment requires them to be creative regarding coming up with ideas for protecting the environment.

The problem that I have is that they are spending money foolishly, and are not held accountable. That is a problem. As well as apising the different governmental agencies requirements which is difficult to say the least.

Not enough information has been provided by it's creator to enable any of us to provide a intelligent answers for his problem.

No, but we're getting there, arn'nt we. To atleast giving direction

As far as information, no, there was not enough, and I posted what I have experienced, The engineers at county extension agency are more humble now than they were 10-30 years ago.

Hello Toomuchfun:

I hope you do not mind me poking my nose into your conversation.

There is still not enough info' but, it would be nice if he could say if he has passed plans or not. And, it may be that he wanted to just work out the levels before any work was done to get some idea what the plot will look like?

I think from the sound of things he may not have planning permission so it kind of drags out doesn't it? It all takes time. And if he does not continue this thread I would imagine he will be back sometime. I know I would pop in and out to ask whatever questions crop up and certainly would not take the work of an 'official' over common sense.

stay safe

babybear

Good morning babybear, the property owner is apparantly very busy but he hopes to be able to give me more info this week. Today I plan on visiting the county planning office to look at an example of how they like to see a D&G Plan. I expect it'll have say 1 foot contours within 10 or 15 feet of the house, then 2 or 5 foot contours for the rest of the lot. I expect they require something like a 6" drop in the first 10 feet closest to the house.

If the owner has a builder's level & pole, he and I could do a good enough job gathering enough data for me to make a Plan. Or maybe he wants to rent the equipment; or maybe he'd want to hire a surveyor. Or maybe he'd like to use a long plastic tube & water. He is building the house in his spare time.

He has already carved out a flat area at the foot of the hill, measuring approximately 100' x 100'. I don't know exactly which lot is his, but I'm guessing its the 165' x 260' one. The 260' goes up the hill. It is very rocky terrain, with no large trees.

Hello flyinghigh:

just say thank for the little extra info about the site, yourself and the builder. Sounds a bit hit or miss with him building it in 'his spare time'. You better hope he has a lot of spare time or it could be years before you get in.

What about plans? Is this the first time you have been into the planning office. I suppose you will have to know for certain which plot you have before you can think of putting levels in! With the size it will take longer than you think to do levels and definitely worth investing in a length of plastic tube. If I were you I would try drawing a rough plan to see where the high points will be and how the ground runs, compared with where the house will be. You seem to be guessing and assuming rather a lot. Wait until you get to the planning office before you start making a 'minds eye view' of the site.

I don't know if you can or not but, it may be easier to place the building nearer to the boundary rather than right in the middle on the site. It may be a lot easier to work out and actually level the site. Just a thought.

good luck

babybear

babybear

Good morning babybear, this is his lot and house. I called the County permit office to arrange my looking at an example of a D&G Plan. She said most people put it on the Site Plan, with existing contours represented by dashed lines and proposed by solid lines; the slope away from the house shall drop 6" in the first 10 feet; the cut into the hill shall not be more than 1:2, i.e., if for example, he makes a vertical 10' cut, he has to provide a 20' level surface (which doesn't sound too stringent), or provide a retaining wall, which I've done plenty of.

She said IF I show a swale, it shall be made permanent, by some method such as fabric, concrete, riprap, etc. She also said she'd be glad to show me an example, but it may be easier for me to just look some up on the 'web.

So bottom line she didn't sound too concerned, but may have been implying that after they get the Plan, and look at the property, they may direct some changes to the Plan. She also said she wasn't in the "flood dept", which is probably where the land mine is! Maybe I'll call back and speak to someone in the flood dept.

http://www.allthingspolitical.org/special_districts/districts_flood_control.htm

Good morning, bwire, thx for the great tip! I was not aware of such info.

Well said

Actually, since i work as a city engineer, i can say with some expertise that you ar epartially correct , but also partially incorrect. The building authroity cares foremost about public health and safety, meaning the future owners of the house as well as the neighboring property owners. So it is important, since you could sell the home in the future, that adequate drainage away from your home be designed into the grading plans. Also, the property owner of the home may not significantly adversely impact neighboring properties with through modifications in the drainage off his property. Soin essence you can not design a home that would flood out any more than could flood out the neighbor. Also, there are water rights issues about maintaining natural drainage, and dam safety.

Good morning RCE. Thx for your post. Today he brought by a site plan, complete with contour lines; done by another engineer. So I was unnecessarily worrying/preparing for something I did not have to do.

As I understand your issue you are asking about a site and drainage plan for some where in Arizona. Not all states are the same when it comes to controlling the flow of rain water. There is always a certain amount of stupidity involved when Govt. of any sort gets involved. For instance here in Florida on the Lake Wales Ridge in the central part of the state you can find large deep dry holes that are often fenced and are never wet on the bottom unless it is actually raining, and when it stops the rain water vanishes instantly

. Yet within 3/4 of a mile away there is a multi thousand acre lake and the surface water is less than 5' below the top edge of the dry hole, and near by there are large storm water detention ponds that remain standing in several feet of water year around. This is the result of Govt. trying to make one set of regulations fit all situations. Residental lots locally must be able to retain the first one inch of rainfall, per hour. Thats all! Sand alone can do this, but swales are placed between the home and the road way with 1/2 if the swale on the owner's land and the other on County property. I have seen swales 3 ft deep in front of homes that were the first to be constructed on a street, in the middle of the block that drained to no where. Just a 3' deep ditch in front of the home holding breeding misquitos and impossible to mow the grass.

I suggest that you consult with a building contractor in your area regarding what is required in the State of Arizona. You do not get a lot of rain in most of the state but things are different in the mountains. And flash floods occur in the desert from mountain storm water run off.

TMF

Hello again flyinghigh:

This is the piece I sent to pheonix911:

With a little tractor or a couple of shovels, and a friend to hold one end of the water level and some thought, like a roughed out plan as to where you want the building so you can make all land leading to it slope, if only slightly away.

Or, you can make a 'moat' round the entire building with drainage in it leading out to the lower slopes. Line the drainage moat round the house fill with good strong concrete to withing say 20cm of the top then fill the last bit with aggregate, shingle, pea shingle, whatever as long as the foundation/floor to the house is high enough to stop water washing in after a flood. The water will flow through the shingle and around the building.

stay safe

babybear

Hello babybear;

your comment;

Or, you can make a 'moat' round the entire building with drainage in it leading out to the lower slopes. Line the drainage moat round the house fill with good strong concrete to withing say 20cm of the top then fill the last bit with aggregate, shingle, pea shingle, whatever as long as the foundation/floor to the house is high enough to stop water washing in after a flood. The water will flow through the shingle and around the building.

that was exactly what we did around our barn, I was still in high school, We had quotes from contractor com ine at $500.00 to $750.00, ASCS extension office caught wind what we wanted to do and offer a cost sharing program that the government would pay for 70% of it. Tnhe catch was we would have to do it thier way. Well their proposal our portion we would still have to pay $80,000.00, their justification was the government would paid. And it did offer anything more. They claimed our proposal for the system would fail.

When they found out we were going to do it our way. It was said unofficially they would make it hard on us.

Well our system lasted 20+ years before we upgraded it and expanded it.

They're designs, some began failing within (2) years.

I learned from a young age, when someone saids "they'rer from the government and they're here to help you" to be beware.

A case of The simplest idea is the best.

Hello phoenix911:

that Agency sounds like a load of B---------s.

You must give thought to the whole project though. And this includes any land around that is not yours but will drain over your land. Again another variation would be to dig a small trench all round the outer boundaries of the property and fill it with aggregate. You can then run vehicles over it and cut grass over it with perfect safety. And you cannot fall in!

stay safe

babybear

Your correct. We apply more common sense to it. did not work up the ground and let it turn into sod and pasture, As well we own the land around and there were no waterways.

The problem with the county extension office is that We built retaining walls using used railroad ties. They wanted us to used new pressure treated 6x6's which were made of douglas fir, they said it has a 20 year warranty on them, while the ties were 8 x 10 oak.

The Oak Retaining walls are still standing and performing.

(even though they were treated, there does not seem to be any remaining residue and the oak is somewhat deterating but slowly)

The extension office were'nt really bastard's just government employees, waiting for their pension.

Hello again phoenix911:

dare I say 'great minds think alike'?

stay safe

babybear

Hello flyinghigh:

I have just reread your question, where you say the 'swale' would have to be at least big enough to take the expected water, (paraphrased). But you can dig a ditch of any size as long as you back fill with aggregate you can make it three or four times as big as you think you need.

And your idea of building a wall 600mm high is a very sound one. Waterproofing as you say. If you do not mind steps you could make the whole concrete base pad (with reinforced steel) and build it up to sat 1200mm thick and then use steps or a slope down to outside finished ground level. This would give yet more 'insurance' if and when you got an unusual downpour.

stay safe

babybear

If this location is in Arizona you would do best to determine the natural or pre-construction condition of grade and keep as close to that grade as possible at project finish.

Arizona has a thing about leave things as they are when considering alteration of natural landscapes. Some areas you can not move rocks or trees etc..

Hello bwire,

as I understand it the UK has a law on trees not being moved. Not sure about the rocks but I would imagine you would have to build round them. You have to plant trees on new building sites in the UK I think that's right.

stay safe

babybear

Howdy flyinghigh,

You are over thinking this a bit and all the while over looking several pertinent points.

All sentiments aside the services of a Hydrologist and Surveyor may well be the intelligent course. Check with the insurance company and determine probability of litigation with/without an engineer signing off on the grading plan.

With the recent flooding the country has experienced possibly a 20 year weather cycle may not suffice; check with the insurance company foresight may get you a reputation.

Good morning bwire, all good points. Thanks.

Hello flyinghigh:

bwire makes some really sensible points the!

The site sounds pretty hilly. I never had in mind you may be moving so much soil to make a surface for the house. I figured the plot would go up and level out enough to place the house. It really sounds to me that ground consolidation could be important here. With some serious retaining walls if the house is to be cut into the hillside. It is a whole bigger scale to what I imagined, and you have for sure some hard work ahead of you.

I would seriously consider finding another person/company to do the groundwork and or the building itself, because a site on a hill can have all kinds of problems and there needs to be someone there working and building all the time. Any periods where the site comes to a hault work-wise can mean it making your plans null en void and just make a whole lot of work which must be done on a full time basis. Doing something like that 'part-time' is not something I would have planned for. As you move the ground it, and the level ground that may be made up of some loose soil also, has to be made safe, solid and made so any weather will not wash your house and the hill away. Sorry for stating the obvious

I wish you lots of luck, as I think you will need it. Especially as it seems you have never made a three-D plan before? The site has to be seen to work.

What is the overall landscape, other than the hill your plot is on? Is it flat or do you have a hill going further up which could wash water and silt/soil down to your site?

It will take several months just to draw the plot plan as is, and then as you intend it to be, allowing for some 'bargaining' on just about every detail. Building on that much of a slope really is not that straightforward, so be patient K?

I have only ever worked on 'flood plains' which of course are more or less flat. It can mean you are very close to the water table but, is a piece of cake compared to what you envisage.

Good luck and keep in touch. I think you will need lots of help and advice!

stay safe

babybear

babybear, at this point I have to wait until he is able to supply me with more and/or better info. That's why I'm doing a little guessing here and there.

He must already have plans for the house itself, as he has a lot of brick or cinder block already on site. It is a rocky sloped area, so I don't expect much erosion before he gets it finished. I expect the county will be satisfied with a 2-d plan.

The water table is deep and spotty. Several have drilled dry wells.

Hello flyinghigh:,

does it have medium to large rocks on sand or soil or, is it a real rock solid rock hill.

Is the house for you? As it seems he must have started some kind of planning if he already has building materials etc on site?

Are you paying for everything? Because it does sound like your part time builder is keeping important info' from you and, it could mean you may be treading on each others toes when it comes to the planning side.

It should be either him or you in charge of the planning. If it is him, as it seems, then he must keep you informed. Or are you just doing the labouring type work to get things moving? Does he own the site and is building a house to sell or rent to you, is that it?

stay safe

babybear

Good morning, babybear. The terrain is basically medium rocks in gravel/sandy soil. It is his house he's building on his lot. He's paying for everything, and thus wants to keep expenses low.

Hello flyinghigh:

your last sentence: "He's paying for everything, and thus wants to keep expenses low." has made things a whole lot clearer. Thanks.

babybear