Previous in Forum: Making Mud Bricks for domestic dwelling.   Next in Forum: BIO DIESEL
Close
Close
Close
14 comments
Rate Comments: Nested
Member
Safety - Hazmat - New Member

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Trinidad & Tobago
Posts: 6

Magma Energy – Feasible since 1982 !?

08/12/2008 10:28 PM

MAGMA ENERGY

This is a report that was published in 1982, representing research from the late 1970's – i.e. during the previous "energy crisis" when the elevated oil prices had created much interest in the field of alternative / renewable energy (like in the present). This is one of the many initiatives that seems to have been forgotten when the oil prices crashed in the mid-80's, but it is very interesting to read from the perspective of our present circumstances…

John L. Colp. 1982. Final Report – Magma Energy Research Project. Sandia National Laboratories, U.S. Department of Energy; 42 pp.

Link to report: Information Bridge: DOE Scientific and Technical Information - Sponsored by OSTI

ABSTRACT

Quote:

  • The DOE-funded, 7-yr research project conducted by Sandia National Laboratories to assess the scientific feasibility of extracting energy directly from buried magma sources in the upper 10 km of the earth's crust have been completed successfully.
  • Scientific feasibility (the demonstration, by means of theoretical calculations and supporting laboratory and field measurements, that there are no known insurmountable theoretical or physical barriers which invalidate a concept or process) was demonstrated for the concept of magma energy extraction.
  • The US magma resource is estimated at 50,000 to 500,000 quads of energy – a 700- to 7,000 year supply at the current US total energy use rate of 75 quads per year.
  • Existing geophysical exploration systems are believed to be capable of locating and defining magma bodies and were demonstrated over a known shallow buried molten-rock body. Drilling rigs that can drill to the depths required to tap magma are currently available and experimental boreholes were drilled into buried molten rock at temperatures up to 1100 °C.
  • Engineering materials compatible with the buried magma environment are available and their performances were demonstrated in analog laboratory experiments
  • Studies show that energy can be extracted at attractive rates from magma resources in all petrologic compositions and physical configurations.
  • Downhole heat extraction equipment was designed, built and demonstrated successfully in buried molten rock and in the very hot margins surrounding it.
  • Two methods of generating gaseous fuels in the high-temperature magmatic environment – generation of hydrogen by the interaction of water with ferrous iron, and hydrogen, methane and carbon monoxide generation by the conversion of water-biomass mixtures – have been investigated and show promise.
Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: California
Posts: 2363
Good Answers: 63
#1

Re: Magma Energy – Feasible since 1982 !?

08/13/2008 2:14 PM

So what is the effect of cooling that magma to the point where use is no longer viable in 700 years (or sooner if the projections were a little off). What does the heated fluid magma do for the general environment of the planet. Currently tht heat must be doing something as part of our environment, since it exists uncerneath us and must pass through our environment to escape the planet. Also how does the earth magnetic field strength correspond to the fluidity, temperature, and convective flow of the magma? Since our magnetic field is necessary to stop solar winds and radiation from stripping away our atmosphere and frying everyone, it might be something to consider. How would this effect the rotation and tilt of our planet? how does the rotation, tilt, magnetic field, and thermal energy escaping from the earths core effect our weather? How would this effect seismicity?

Also how is this a renewable source? How do you regenerate the heat in the magma that you previously extracted?

Register to Reply
Power-User
United States - Member - Member

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: La Grande, Oregon U.S.A.
Posts: 468
Good Answers: 23
#3
In reply to #1

Re: Magma Energy – Feasible since 1982 !?

08/14/2008 6:01 PM

Good question - if we thought patching the ozone and sequestering CO2 was tough..........

__________________
Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft! - Theodore Roosevelt
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: California
Posts: 2363
Good Answers: 63
#4
In reply to #3

Re: Magma Energy – Feasible since 1982 !?

08/14/2008 6:14 PM

Well on a small scale it is probably trivial. However, the effects on a large scale to provide a substantial portion of our energy needs should be considered, especially over a long timeline, such as 700+ years, with the growing population and per capita demand for energy. We are effectively talking about accelerating the heat transfer from the core to space. However, in the short term this is a good patch for some portion of our energy needs to allow time to transition to a better source of energy.

Register to Reply
2
Guru
Engineering Fields - Instrumentation Engineering - EE from the the Wilds of Pa.

Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: middle of nowhere, Pennsylvania
Posts: 2603
Good Answers: 63
#2

Re: Magma Energy – Feasible since 1982 !?

08/14/2008 8:24 AM

On a similar note, I personally "logged" a 6500 foot test well in Crisfield Md. in 1979 drilled by the US DOE in search of hot dry rocks for thermal energy. (logged means I ran numerous electronic tools, normally used for gas and oil wells into the hole to give them data on rock type, rock density, rock porosity, rock water content, existing fracture zones, and of course temperature) Unfortunately, they missed the point they were looking for by about 15 miles. The optimum location appeared to be somewhere under the Chesapeake Bay. We already had wells in WVa that would have matched this one in temperature at an equivalent depth. If we can't figure where to drill any better than that, the magma solution could be a problem.

__________________
Remember when reading my post: (-1)^½ m (2)^½
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Guru
United States - US - Statue of Liberty - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Gone to Alabama with my banjo on my knee...
Posts: 5595
Good Answers: 20
#5

Re: Magma Energy – Feasible since 1982 !?

08/15/2008 7:13 AM

The DOE found this out rather recently (by comparison); that magma has been down there for quite some while, I believe. With diligence, within 700 years, we ought to have figured a solution to the energy problem. Larry Niven's "Ringworld" perhaps? Or maybe just cultural annihilation so we can resume our paleolithic ways. However, this might be the solution we need to keep the great Yellowstone volcano from destroying the North American continent...

__________________
Veni, vidi, video - I came, I saw, I got it on film.
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Model Rocketry - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: East of Seattle, Washington state Republic of the 50 states of America
Posts: 2045
Good Answers: 36
#6
In reply to #5

Re: Magma Energy – Feasible since 1982 !?

08/16/2008 12:37 AM

My thoughts exactly

Brad

__________________
(Larrabee's Law) Half of everything you hear in a classroom is crap. Education is figuring out which half is which.
Register to Reply
Guru
United States - US - Statue of Liberty - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Gone to Alabama with my banjo on my knee...
Posts: 5595
Good Answers: 20
#7
In reply to #6

Re: Magma Energy – Feasible since 1982 !?

08/16/2008 6:07 AM

Sorry, didn't mean to be a copycat...

__________________
Veni, vidi, video - I came, I saw, I got it on film.
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Hobbies - Model Rocketry - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: East of Seattle, Washington state Republic of the 50 states of America
Posts: 2045
Good Answers: 36
#8
In reply to #7

Re: Magma Energy – Feasible since 1982 !?

08/18/2008 10:56 AM

Hello EniroMan,

Only the " this might be the solution we need to keep the great Yellowstone volcano from destroying the North American continent... "

With our present world government(s) the rest is a given.

Brad

__________________
(Larrabee's Law) Half of everything you hear in a classroom is crap. Education is figuring out which half is which.
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: California
Posts: 2363
Good Answers: 63
#9
In reply to #5

Re: Magma Energy – Feasible since 1982 !?

08/27/2008 3:12 PM

Hmm, I am not sure that an eruption of yellowstone could actually destroy the whole continent. I am not even sure that it could make all of the contiguous US uninhabitable or kill all the people in the US during the eruption. I suspect it would cause severe ash falls in the least populated areas of the US, making those require immediate evacuation, probably cause some respiratory issue over a few years exposure to most of the midwest north of texas through florida and maybe even have some minor impacts as far as the eastern seaboard, and then maybe lead to a few years of cooling in the northern hemisphere due to the ash in the atmosphere. However ash makes for good agricultural soils, so Iowa would be back in business probably within a decade. However, I am pretty sure the continent would still exist and be habitable in many places even immediately during and following an eruption.

Register to Reply
Guru
United States - US - Statue of Liberty - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Gone to Alabama with my banjo on my knee...
Posts: 5595
Good Answers: 20
#10
In reply to #9

Re: Magma Energy – Feasible since 1982 !?

08/27/2008 5:06 PM

"...habitable in many places..."

Yeah, well, that's close enough for this ol' country boy!

__________________
Veni, vidi, video - I came, I saw, I got it on film.
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Cairns, Qld, Australia
Posts: 968
Good Answers: 65
#11

Re: Magma Energy – Feasible since 1982 !?

11/02/2008 7:04 AM

Correctly placed the cooling could not only provide large scale power but also slowly reduce the chance of various volcanoes erupting (eg Mt St Helens).

I can't think of any significant environmental problems.

The earth's magnetic field comes from rotation of a molten core far deeper than any drilling likely for this purpose.

Register to Reply
Anonymous Poster
#12
In reply to #11

Re: Magma Energy – Feasible since 1982 !?

11/03/2008 11:30 AM

Hmm, interesting, and this rotation and molten core you speak of how does it reverse our magnetic field every so often? As I understood my geology courses in college, the magnetic field derives from the convective activity in the outer core. So if enough people draw enough energy from the lower mantle, reducing the temperature of the mantle underlying various wealthy countries, how does this effect the convection in the outer core. Additionally, how much does this accelerate the cooling of the planet. Everything we do has some effect, it is just that some effects are insignificant until we do them at a large enough scale or long enough duration. As a rule those effects that go unnoticed for a very long duration or until we have a very large scale generally have large source/sinks and damping factors. At what point do we overwhelm the damping. 30 years ago no one believed we could have much of an effect on the worldwide climate. also, once you start down this type of road, and you keep building and growing as the effect is "insignificant" where do you tell them to stop, which country or company gets the last geothermal energy plant.

Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Cairns, Qld, Australia
Posts: 968
Good Answers: 65
#13
In reply to #12

Re: Magma Energy – Feasible since 1982 !?

11/03/2008 5:37 PM

My geology is pretty rusty so you are probably right that the magnetic field comes from convective activity in the outer core.

It still amounts to a huge amount of energy before it could have a significant effect.

By the time it does, we should have developed different sources of energy, eg fusion.

Register to Reply
Anonymous Poster
#14
In reply to #13

Re: Magma Energy – Feasible since 1982 !?

11/03/2008 6:31 PM

The question becomes, by the time it becomes significant and we conduct the studies to prove a significant adverse impact and the world governments come to a consensus to solve the problem, will be be so far along that we have exceeded the natural attenuating/dampening effects of the natural environment. How close can you get to a waterfall before you have gone to far to go back, and how much would it cost to go back. I think we are seeing this on a much smaller scale with the climate change issues. I am not sure it is prudent to jump up to screwing around with something on a much larger scale that could potentially have a much greater impact on life on the surface without a substantial factor of safety built in. I am sure 100 years ago they thought oil was so plentiful that it was a nearly inexhaustible supply of cheap energy, and 30 years ago they thought that if we could reduce the particulates and heavier smog producing components and/or exhaust them to the upper atmosphere we would improve life and the atmosphere would readily absorb our contributions like some endless sink.

Register to Reply
Register to Reply 14 comments

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

Anonymous Poster (2); EnviroMan (3); LG_Dave (1); Phys (1); RCE (3); sceptic (2); U V (2)

Previous in Forum: Making Mud Bricks for domestic dwelling.   Next in Forum: BIO DIESEL

Advertisement