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Another wind power question

09/01/2008 10:08 AM

I understand that if you add a forth blade to a three bladed wind generator propeller, you gain only about 5 percent more power. If you added a complete second three bladed propeller to the same shaft, only 20 t0 40 feet away, would you gain50+ percent more power? Is this easy to test or simulate? If there was that much power gain, would it make economic sense?

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#1

Re: Another wind power question

09/01/2008 12:48 PM

There were plenty of engineers working on these--Especially the MOD-2s. They didn't go with three or four foils then and I wanted to know why we do now. I have tried to research why this question and the only thing I found published on the subject was that they 1. turn slower--for bird strike problems and 2. three blades are more ascetically pleasing to the eye when they turn. Both hurt efficiency.


Figure 13. The 200kW MOD-0A wind turbine at Clayton, New Mexico was a qualified success for NASA and DOE

Figure 14. In the words of one exasperated federal program manager, the 2-megawatt General Electric MOD-1 machine was built "hell-for-stout." Unpredicted low frequency sound emissions resonating in the many homes scattered through hills and valleys close to the installation killed the project.

"Hell-for-Stout"

Beginning with the 100kW MOD-0 installed at NASA's Plum Brook Ohio facility in 1975, the U.S. program rapidly moved through several generations, including the MOD-1 and the 100-meter diameter MOD-2 wind turbines (see below.)

Unfortunately, the program was burdened by an early error that took four years to overcome. In 1974, perhaps expecting to reproduce the success of U.S. rocketry development by copying advanced German designs, NASA engineers turned to Ulrich Hutter's blueprints for answers. While borrowing Hutter's two-bladed, downwind rotor configuration for their early designs, they failed to note the importance of the fact that Hutter's machines featured teetering hubs--now known to be essential for reducing dynamic loads created by tower shadow in two-bladed machines.

NASA engineers were astounded by the huge dynamic loads the first (MOD-0) machine developed whenever a blade entered the "dead" space behind the tower (which was also much beefier and blocked more wind than Hutter's). And it took several years of engineering studies, responding to outraged Congressional inquiries (from none other than Barry Goldwater), and other diversions to figure out what was going on and switch to an upwind, teetered hub configuration.

The rigid hub NASA turbines (with a probable useful machine life measured in months) none-the-less served as useful stand-ins for demonstration projects until "real" machines arrived in the early 1980's.

The program's biggest early success was the operation of four MOD-OA 200 kW machines by U.S. utility companies (Figure 13.)

The moniker "real machine" did not apply to the MOD-1 (Figure 14, at left), the program's first attempt at a megawatt-scale system. Because it was designed before the problems with the MOD-0 were understood, the design was a lame duck even before acoustic resonance problems (themselves aggravated by the lack of a teetering hub) scuttled the first and only installation at Boone, North Carolina.


Figure 14. The 3-megawatt, 100-meter diameter MOD-2 operated by PG&E in Solano, California was the most successful private operation of a multi-megawatt wind turbine until the MOD-5B in Oahu, Hawaii.

A "Real" Machine?

The first "real" NASA wind turbine was the 100-meter diameter MOD-2. Three of these machines operated for several years at a site overlooking the Columbia River in the 1980's, providing valuable engineering data and helping to pinpoint design weaknesses. Others operated at Solano, California (left) and near Medicine Bow, Wyoming. The MOD-2 was an inevitably flawed experimental machine because of the huge technological leap it represented from the MOD-1. This provided detractors with an easy target for criticism.

By 1981, the detractors of the Federal program had succeeded in getting most of the development activity scuttled, just when things were poised to get better.

Lessons learned on the MOD-2's were incorporated in the 3.2-megawatt MOD-5B, a 100+ meter behemoth that was still operating (not without problems) on the Island of Oahu, Hawaii in 1997.


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#2
In reply to #1

Re: Another wind power question

09/02/2008 12:31 AM

The three bladed configuration you see in most turbines is called the "Danish Concept." The large wind turbine industry opted for this profile because it addresses the problems of load (a concern with multiple blades) and stability (a problem inherent in two-bladed profile). It also takes economics into consideration.

Though it may seem intuitive that more blades mean more energy captured from the wind, there are a few issues to consider. First, there is load. Obviously, more blades mean more area susceptible to load. Though more blades are helpful in harnessing energy in slower wind speeds, they also become a liability in higher wind speeds. Even in relatively low wind areas such as where I live, we occasionally have very windy days where gusts top out at 40 mph (18 m/s). A turbine with multiple blades in such winds would need to be shut down (yawed perpendicular to the flow) to avoid structural damage. This would be a tremendous waste of good energy. Second, more blades means more mass with which to contend. Third, there is the economics of more blades. Each blade on a megawatt class machine costs several hundred thousand U.S. dollars to manufacture. Since the wind industry needs to remain competitive in the energy market, the less blades, the better.

The above begs the question: why not two blades instead of three? There are three problems with the two bladed design. First is the teetering effect caused by the simultaneous exposure of the top blade to the highest winds (highest pressure zone) and the lower blade to the shade effect created by the tower (lowest pressure zone). This teetering effect creates wear and tear not only on the rotor but on all of the components connected to the rotor, including the generator. Some older manufacturers had attempted to compensate for the teetering effect by developing a complex dampening system. However, these manufacturers eventually moved over to the Danish Concept after it became apparent that the cost of such a system did not outweigh the benefits. In addition to the teetering effect, the two bladed configuration also requires a higher rotational speed to yield the same energy output as that of the three bladed design. This can cause visual and noise intrusion.

In summary, the three blade design solves the problem of stability and load, and is the more economical approach. For more information, please use the following URL:

http://www.windpower.org/en/tour/design/concepts.htm

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#3

Re: Another wind power question

09/02/2008 12:37 AM

I'm taking a chance in getting foot in mouth disease. Sometime back I was discussing propeller design for aircraft with a friend knowledgeable in that field. The discussion was brought about by his change in propellers on his Bonanza I can't remember whether he was going from a two to three blade or vice versa. The end result of the discussion was barring other factors such as ground clearance a longer 2 blade propeller was a better choice.

The reasoning was due to the air disturbance caused by the propeller blades , the efficiency of the propeller dropped as the distance between the blades decreased therefore there was a diminishing return. I certainly can see this with the propeller turning at 2300 rpm, I'm not sure whether this would have any effect on the relatively low rpm wind turbines. So I guess my answer is also question, do wind turbine propellers rotate fast enough to get into turbulent air caused their own blades. If the "dirty air" is what's reducing the return in adding extra blades then certainly moving an additional propeller into clean-air would seem to make sense. I suppose the only consideration would be the structural requirements to compensate for moving the propellers away from the center structure.

PS: I see a guest posted who seems to be knowledgeable in the field, At the same time I was preparing my post, I see we're in agreement on the structural requirements becoming a factor, perhaps he can comment if the turbulence caused by their own blades becomes a factor in wind turbines.

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#4
In reply to #3

Re: Another wind power question

09/02/2008 1:36 AM

Why not contra-rotating propellers?

Do not some large helicopters have contra-rotating blades and also some marine propulsion systems have contra-rotating axial in-line propellers for higher power output with smaller diameter propellers.

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#5
In reply to #4

Re: Another wind power question

09/02/2008 5:05 AM

Wind turbines are standing still and being powered by the wind. With planes and boats it is the opposite, at times they powering with or against the wind or water currents this creates a lot more turbulance and dead areas, contra rotating blades help combat this but cost becomes an issue. Encased turbines would be another way to go but costs would also increase so it becomes a case of effectiveness against costs.

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