Messed up household electrical

I am assuming that your power feed from the utility is 240/120V service.

This sounds like you have loose or bad connection on your "neutral" wire. This problem could be at the utility transformer, the service, distribution panel inside of your house, or any where between. Most commonly I have seen this problem at the service; either on the utility side or customers side of the service.

This is a very serious problem and does cause fires any thing electronic is usually the first to go (burn up). If you are not a qualified to diagnose the problem I would suggest you find an electrician that can.

The problem with "losing" the neutral in either single phase or even three phase system. Is that all the non linear loads (aka 120V) will still want to find a complete circuit. The circuit can be made in a series circuit through various 120V loads that are plugged in in various locations in your home.

It is lot easier to understand with a circuit drawing but I not sure how to paste graphics here.

Sorry this is not going to address your question, but I have to ask, what kind of clocks are you talking about? I was quite sure that modern clocks designed to run off of the "line", are using the 60Hz AC as the time-keeping reference (in the USA anyway), and the accuracy of the clock would not be dependant at all on the voltage. I suppose a wiring issue could be causing some strange looking waveforms, and that might confuse the 60Hz detector circuit?

Are these digital or motorized clocks? Again, sorry not to answer the question, but you've got me curious.

Tom

This is what I would do:

I would open the lighting panel and inspect and measure all circuits. No problems, then--

Unplug everything and measure again upstairs

If normal plug one thing in at a time and measure between each action and find the failed device.

If not normal find where the wiring has failed by:

Measure voltage to neutral and then to a GOOD ground reference--Then check neutral to a GOOD ground reference for voltage.---Bring and extension cord upstairs and use the ground and neutral.

Find the breaker for the circuit/circuits and turn off--Find ALL the rest of the outlets on the circuit that will be dead--Turn the circuit back on and measure them back towards the lighting panel until you have normal voltage. You should be able to find something.

electric digital clock is what we are using but they tend to gain about 15 minutes a day upstairs and i can take them downstairs and they stay right on. How do I measure Hz? I thought like you that it could not be varied locally although I was not aware that the frequency, not voltage affected the clock counting circuits.

You will certainly not see a local variation of the 60 Hz frequency, it must be that the sine wave is getting so distorted that it's affecting the counters in the clock. Here's a picture I found on the internet to show what I mean.

There will be a circuit in the clock that will try to square off the 60 Hz sine wave, to use as the reference for time-keeping. When the sine wave is very distorted, you can get multiple transitions for a single cycle of the AC, which would cause the clock to be fast.

Any chance you can get your hands on an Oscilloscope? Monitoring the AC upstairs while you start to disconnect things could help you isolate this problem pretty quickly. Since you seem to have some serious voltage issues going on too, you can troubleshoot with a good AC voltmeter too, but it would be interesting to see what that AC looks like, considering it must be REALLY distorted to cause a digital clock to run fast! Happy hunting! Be sure to keep us posted.

Tom

Sounds like a short or poor/improper connection in a 240v appliance that is feeding voltage back into the 110?

Just a guess. I'm probably out to lunch.

Are there any baseboard heaters, hot water heater etc that are not functioning properly?

Yes there are baseboard heaters that were removed by the previous owner in the pustairs. I do not know how he covered the wiring but i do know the breakers are still in the box with tape over them that he put saying "do not turn these on"

I think it's time I break down and call a real electrician

I think it may be possible that one or both of these breakers that are labeled "do not turn on" is/are faulty. To eliminate the possibility of these breakers causing the problem you should completely remove them from the panel box and tape up the wires that are hooked to them. Make sure you close up the open hole in the panel box (duct tape, metal plate) so that noone can poke a screw driver in there and electrocute themselves. Check your voltage upstairs again. If this did not fix the problem, call an electrician. Of course the first thing you should do before working on the panel box is to make sure your main power coming in is disconnected.

Virgil, it sounds like Sparky has the most likely answer, but there are additional clues in your description. You say the voltage is consistently 110 or 120 at the panel. That means the neutral from the utility is probably good, and that the problem is downstream of the incoming service. There are 2 likely possibilities I would check:

1. The neutral bar (where all the white wires are terminated) has become disconnected from the utility neutral. Depending on the type of panel, you may have all the white and bare (or green) wires connected on the same bar, or two separate bars, one for the white wires (neutral) and another for the bare/green wires (ground). Regardless of the design, all bars must be bonded (bolted, bussed or cabled) to the utility neutral connection. In the panel, check for voltage between the neutral connector where the outside wire is connected and the bar or bars. If you get any voltage at all, there is a problem in the panel. (NOTE: The 2-bar type of panel is designed to be used as a sub-panel, where the neutral and ground bars must be kept separate. However, it is legal to use this type for service entrance as long as the neutral is bonded to ground. If you have 2 bars and see voltage, it's likely that the neutral bar is not grounded.)

2. You may have a broken neutral in older-style wiring. If your house is over 40 years old, it may have knob-and-tube wiring, where the neutral and hot wires are not together in a cable. Each device and fixture is simply tapped off of whatever hot or neutral is nearby. If your house has this type of wiring, it will be difficult to pinpoint the location of the neutral break, and your best bet is to call an electrician with experience troubleshooting knob and tube wiring.

Question 1: How old is this house?

Question 2: Is the main aluminium wire?

If the main is aluminium , then chk to see if there is alonox on the connection for the common.

It really appears as if you have a high resistance (impeadence load) at the common.

This is a dangerous situation and has been the cause of many house fires. Get an electrician in ASAP to run this down.

1. The neutral bar (where all the white wires are terminated) has become disconnected from the utility neutral--

This can't be true if part of the panel is "Normal" 120V to ground/neutral--Someone mentioned a 240 circuit gone awry, and I would subscribe to that. Otherwise there would have to be something that would cause the voltage to step up. It would be a lot more likely to see a voltage drop if it was a simple wiring failure or resistive connection.--I suspect a phase to phase anomaly. If it is a utility/transformer problem, you should catch it where the service enters the panel and it should be present on all the circuits common with the bad phase/phases, not just some of them.

2. You may have a broken neutral in older-style wiring.

What would cause the voltage to increase?

Good luck, but get help.

This can't be true if part of the panel is "Normal" 120V to ground/neutral--

From the original post: "I am getting anywhere from 148 volts to 157 volts in my entire second floor. Down stairs I am getting 109 to 117 volts. I have check everthing in the circuit breaker box and I appear to be sending a consistant 110 to 120 volts depending on the time of day our of eack breaker."

Voltages are normal in the panel. The abnormal voltages are on all 120V circuits outside the panel.

Someone mentioned a 240 circuit gone awry, and I would subscribe to that.

A faulty 240V circuit may cause higher voltage on one 120V circuit, but not multiple, separately cabled circuits. Further, how could a 240V circuit cause the low voltage problems described on the lower level?

Otherwise there would have to be something that would cause the voltage to step up.

There is no voltage step up. The only reason that a 120V circuit stays 120 is due to a hard connection from the receptacle or fixture all the way back to the transformer neutral. If that connection is broken at any point, the 120V loads on opposite hot legs are now in series across the 240V line, as shown in sparkybust's second drawing. The voltage drop across each load will depend on the total impedance in that half of the circuit, which will change every time a light or other device is turned on or turned off. The side with the higher impedance (upstairs in this case) will have a higher voltage, leaving the other side with a corresponding lower voltage. The symptoms described, based on the location of the normal and abnormal voltages, indicate a problem downstream of the "normal" test points, but still inside the panel. If it were outside the panel, only the damaged circuit would show voltage problems.

Good luck, but get help.

I'm always willing to listen to the ideas of others. The entire concept of the CR4 forums is to provide many different perspectives and points of view. However, this type of cooperation can only function in an environment of mutual respect. Your condescending attitude, combined with guesswork rather than analysis, are a discredit to yourself and the entire CR4 community.

As a journeyman electrician for 20 years, and now an electrical engineer for over a decade, I have seen this exact problem many times. Less than a month ago, the remnants of Hurricane Ike broke many service neutrals to customers in Ohio, Kentucky & Indiana, causing lopsided voltage in hundreds of homes, just as the poster described.

No--I wasn't looking to upset anyone--

Are we looking at a good ground reference? Is neutral common to it or is there potential difference between them? Simple.

He has 110-120V on each breaker in his panel--DONE--There is no way to increase the voltage.--If the neutral in the transformer is open--You say it will only affect the second floor after the panel but not in it?--Not a chance.

109-117 sounds perfectly normal for downstairs with the fluctuation from night to day. Probably a simple problem.

I would like to put a meter on it--

Basics--Good ground reference. Neutral, is it grounded everywhere you check, otherwise you have no idea what you are measuring. Lift the ground and let an inductive voltage build on it and measure--It will confuse anyone.

A faulty 240V circuit may cause higher voltage on one 120V circuit, but not multiple, separately cabled circuits.

I dunno but is likely all outlets upstairs are on the same circuit if and older home

The house was built in 1980, the guy i bought if from. He did alot of work him self and judging by the number of beer cans i removed from the garage when i moved in that may have contributed. I have an electrician coming on Monday to check it out. I will keep you posted.

Update from Electrician Visit. Had to replace the whole circuit box. When I added a porch on the back of the house two years ago someone drove a spike into the wall where the electrical box was inside and cracked the ground bar. I could not see it from just removing the cover. I also had a junction box in the attic that was being used to route what looked like the entire home through. That must have been a nice warm space so a mouse decide to call it home. The electrician said he did not see any arcing in the box but he seperated my upstairs into three new circuits, instead of one. I now have one for each bed room and one for the bath room and I have normal current flow upstairs. He said I was lucky that was all they hit with the power nail gun and did not cause a fire. (i do not know if he went too far with replacing the whole box but I am happy with knowing everything is right and safe, he charged $800 for the whole job)

Sounds good to me... peace of mind, and getting it done right for $800. Glad you found the problem!

When I added a porch on the back of the house two years ago someone drove a spike into the wall where the electrical box was inside and cracked the ground bar.

Look at post #15--I may be a complete ass, but read the result ,the good answer and my rant for ground reference(read all the post I gave---GROUND REFERENCE). I may not deserve any consideration and I will leave this thread--Bad good answer and all.

Voltage increase out of thin air?

pwr2thepeople:

I'm always willing to listen to the ideas of others. The entire concept of the CR4 forums is to provide many different perspectives and points of view. However, this type of cooperation can only function in an environment of mutual respect. Your condescending attitude, combined with guesswork rather than analysis, are a discredit to yourself and the entire CR4 community.

I disagree.

I appologize for being less than kind in my approach and I am sure you are right 99.999% of the time--

By the way I never said thanks to all of you for the discussion! I learned alot and feel safer at home now!

After reading through all the comments I was compelled to add a comment.

Series voltage division of 240 volts is the only way to find higher voltages.

Further detail if desired:

There are many causes for a lower voltage, many that would be troublesome and dangerous, but there is only one way to get a higher voltage. 120v circuits are derived between Line A and neutral or between Line B and neutral, and will be 120v or lower. Many circuits from Line A and Line B utilize the same neutral however, which in some circumstances will become the tie from Line A to Line B through normally 120v devices in series.

The only way to find a higher voltage on a 120v circuit is to lose the neutral connection integrity back to the panel ground, and also have a common neutral tie between line A and line B, such as in the drawing in reply #2. The devices sharing the resulting 240v circuit, load 3 and load 4 in the drawing, will "voltage divide"; each dropping voltage based on their respective resistances that in total add up to 240v.

Anyone ever have lights that seem to get very bright from time to time and not last very long? Pity the lights that are in series when the refrigerator cycles.

The most common way this occurs is that someone connects too many neutrals in the same connector or wire cap and one or more of the neutrals has an intermittent connection, or the most greivous use of a crimp connector that breaks wires inside the connector - same result. Of course driving a nail into the neutral buss and breaking it is certainly more sure-fire and difficult to find, but in all cases of higher than panel voltages on a 120 v circuit you will be able to locate a broken neutral.