Previous in Forum: overcurrent relay grading   Next in Forum: Cable Gland and Low Voltage Control Cable 0.6/1 kV
Close
Close
Close
14 comments
Rate Comments: Nested
Participant

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 4

Electron Movement Speed Contradiction?

10/06/2008 10:45 AM

Hi, I hope someone can clear up this basic theory question for me.

Regarding the speed of electron movement. I had been taught many years ago that it is only the energy of the electrons that move at approx. the speed of light and that Electrons themselves move at an approximate fast walk.(Much like those 5 clacker balls on a stand. You lift one and drop it. As it makes contact, the next 3 balls barely move however the last one swings up in the air due to transfered energy.)If this is true then I am not understanding the description for the Ampere.Is it not defined as 1 couloumb (6.25 x 10^18 electrons) past one point in one second? This seems like the ole electron is moving quite quickly. Is this a contradiction? Thanks in advance for any light you can shed on this.

__________________
Function can't coffee without morning in the.
Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 4448
Good Answers: 143
#1

Re: Electron movement speed contradiction?

10/06/2008 1:29 PM

Not even that fast. Think of a moderate stroll for a caterpillar and that's about the drift velocity for electrons.

When you talk about a Coulomb, that is the charge on 6.24 x 1018 electrons. Basically you have a whole lotta of slow moving electrons, so you get that much charge moving past a given point. A gram of copper wire will have about 1022 free electrons. So, let's say you have a copper wire with a cross-sectional area of 0.01 cm2. The electrons would only need to move about 10-3 cm per second to give you an ampere. And electrons actually move about 10 times faster than that.

__________________
"Well, I've wrestled with reality for 35 years, Doctor, and I'm happy to state I finally won out over it." Elwood P. Dowd
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 3)
Participant

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 4
#7
In reply to #1

Re: Electron movement speed contradiction?

10/07/2008 9:55 AM

Thanks TVP, you have cleared up one of those lingering grey areas.

__________________
Function can't coffee without morning in the.
Register to Reply
2
Guru

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Placerville, CA (38° 45N, 120° 47'W)
Posts: 6215
Good Answers: 248
#2

Re: Electron Movement Speed Contradiction?

10/06/2008 11:49 PM

TVP45 is correct, and you were taught correctly! When you add an electron at one end of a wire, it repels its neighbors, so they move over and repel their neighbors etc... That effect travels down the wire at a significant fraction of the speed of light (very similar to the clacker balls), whereas the average position of any single electron moves extremely slowly along the wire.

In fact if it is AC, any given electron's average position just wiggles back and forth a fraction of a mm. If you average it over a cycle or longer, it just sits there!

__________________
Teaching is a great experience, but there is no better teacher than experience.
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Power-User

Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: South Florida
Posts: 394
Good Answers: 8
#3

Re: Electron Movement Speed Contradiction?

10/07/2008 2:00 AM

Thanks, guy's. You confirmed what I suspected when I ran up against it in Stan Gibilsco's "Teach yourself Electricity and Electronics". In addition to electrons, current and the ampere. Giblisco sort of wanders into the difference between the electrons and the movement of 'holes'. This is defined as a shortage of an electron. I'm a bit curious regarding how this Holy situation came up?

Thanks,

/Ari (Orpheuse)

See page 14 of Giblisco's book.

__________________
Orpheuse
Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Old New Member

Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: South east U.K.
Posts: 3695
Good Answers: 93
#4

Re: Electron Movement Speed Contradiction?

10/07/2008 5:05 AM

And another thing, whilst we are on the electron theme. I always thought that electrons in hard vacuum moved at the speed of light yet electron optic devices use electrodes to 'accelerate' the electrons. Is this just a misnomer or are the electrons really accelerated?

__________________
I didn't have a really important life, but at least it's been funny (Lemmy Kilminster 1945-2015)
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 4448
Good Answers: 143
#5
In reply to #4

Re: Electron Movement Speed Contradiction?

10/07/2008 6:25 AM

No, electrons don't move through space at the speed of light. They have a rest mass and cannot be accelerated to that speed. You see acceleration of electrons whenever you sit in front of a CRT (old TVs, monitors, etc).

__________________
"Well, I've wrestled with reality for 35 years, Doctor, and I'm happy to state I finally won out over it." Elwood P. Dowd
Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Old New Member

Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: South east U.K.
Posts: 3695
Good Answers: 93
#6
In reply to #5

Re: Electron Movement Speed Contradiction?

10/07/2008 6:53 AM

That makes more sense that the impression I had before. In terms of the devices I work with, the electrons must be emitted from a photocathode surface into vacuum at a particular speed then get accelerated by the electrodes towards their destination. I can picture that happening.

__________________
I didn't have a really important life, but at least it's been funny (Lemmy Kilminster 1945-2015)
Register to Reply
3
Associate

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: TN, India.
Posts: 35
Good Answers: 2
#8

Re: Electron Movement Speed Contradiction?

10/07/2008 6:22 PM

In reality, even when no current flows through a piece of copper, the free electrons are moving rapidly about. Their speed is about 106 m s-1; that's 3000 times the speed of sound in air! However, since they are moving at random, there is no net flow of electrons in any particular direction and so there is no current.

When a voltage is applied, the electrons gain an additional velocity, so that there is a net flow along the wire. This extra velocity is called their drift velocity.

In examble for Cu,

Copper is a good conductor because, like other metals, it contains free electrons. Free electrons are also known as conduction electrons. Each copper atom provides a single free electron, so there are as many free electrons as atoms.

Free electron concentration in copper n = 8.5 × 1028 per m3

As atoms are closely packed, Even with a small amount of external force ( Voltage ) their movements got a guided orientation, and with their ranadom velocity they got extra drift velocity. As for as the guiding force is avilable then coherant flow of electrons are assured that means existence of Current in that metal.

__________________
?????????? ????????? ????????,.........??????? ???????????? ???????? ????. ????????????
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 3)
Power-User
Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - I am here to help!!

Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 192
Good Answers: 2
#9
In reply to #8

Re: Electron Movement Speed Contradiction?

10/07/2008 11:48 PM

There are few questions which always bugged me as far the flow of electrons is concerned in metal.

1) When you say that there are free electrons per atom, then where do they come from? and why do they exist?

2) When electrons move for the current to flow then, isn't it possible that there will be no free electrons at the start point one day?

3) Is conductivity dependent upon the the number of free electrons available?

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 4448
Good Answers: 143
#10
In reply to #9

Re: Electron Movement Speed Contradiction?

10/08/2008 6:33 AM

Here's a link that might help

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/ohmmic.html

The free electrons come from the copper. We really mean that these electrons are loosely attracted to the individual nuclei and sort of "float about"

In an ordinary wire circuit, you'll never run out since the battery supplies new electrons to replace the old ones and it gets back tired electrons at the other side of the circuit and so on.

#3 is somewhat. That is a big factor, but only one. The actual binding energy is a factor as are lattice defects, as seen from cold working.

__________________
"Well, I've wrestled with reality for 35 years, Doctor, and I'm happy to state I finally won out over it." Elwood P. Dowd
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 3)
Guru

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Placerville, CA (38° 45N, 120° 47'W)
Posts: 6215
Good Answers: 248
#11
In reply to #10

Re: Electron Movement Speed Contradiction?

10/08/2008 7:29 AM

I might add that all three of the best conductors (Ag,Cu,Au, in that order) have a single electron in the outermost shell. It is that outer electron that is only weakly attached to the atom, and can easily be removed and replaced, thus allowing electrical current. I think it is also significant that all three of these metals are very ductile and malleable, indicating that the electrons are not strongly bound in forming a crystal lattice.

__________________
Teaching is a great experience, but there is no better teacher than experience.
Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: TN, India.
Posts: 35
Good Answers: 2
#12
In reply to #9

Re: Electron Movement Speed Contradiction?

10/08/2008 6:03 PM

For Q1:

The free electrons ( as well as other electrons in inner orbit ) are available in nature as they are consitutents of an atom. And atoms are formed by Unknwon!

For Q2:

First of all in any case neither there is a producion of electrons nor their consumption.

For understanding consider you are having a round metal strip ( just equavalent to closed circuit as current flows in closed circuits only ) and mark two spots namely 'A' & 'B'. Consider point 'A' is a voltage source where free electrons are liberated from their atom and these electrons are moving towards to point 'B'.

These new electrons have the energy in the form of Drift Velocity. As these new electrons approaches the point 'B' they are bombarding the atoms in point 'B'. Because of this, a new set of electrons ( equal in number ) are liberated in point 'B' from their parent atom. Their positions are occupied by those old electrons from 'A'. And from point 'B' there is no other way around, the released electrons tends to flow towards to point 'A'.

By this, atoms in point 'A' getting their makeup are now ready to release a new set of electons towards to point 'B'. This forward rotation of electrons never stops until there is a voltage source of DC is available in point 'A'.

I hope you not getting confusion too much. If Yes, then it is worth to say that it is not the case in AC.

In AC,

  1. at time t=0: 'A' to 'B' & 'B' to 'A' (in clock wise) => Forward rotation
  2. at time t=1: 'A' to 'B' & 'B' to 'A' (in anti clock wise) => reverse rotation

and this cycle also continues with availability of AC voltage.

For Q3:

Absolutely. The avialability of free electrons in a metal is termed as resistivity of that particular metal.

for Cu, the resistivity is 1.68x10^-8 Ohm-meter.

__________________
?????????? ????????? ????????,.........??????? ???????????? ???????? ????. ????????????
Register to Reply
Power-User
Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - I am here to help!!

Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 192
Good Answers: 2
#13
In reply to #12

Re: Electron Movement Speed Contradiction?

10/10/2008 1:12 AM

Thanks a lot.

But, there are still some doubts.

- Are those free electrons live ouside the normal orbit of the atom? What force keeps them attracted towards the atom, even when atom has all the necessary electrons in orbit to keep it stable.

- When we say that the current is flowing then actually a charge is being transferred in some specific time. And electron itself is charged particle. So while drfting is it that the electrons are giving away their charge to neighbouring elecrons, then in such case what happens to those electrons (without charge)

Please answer.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Placerville, CA (38° 45N, 120° 47'W)
Posts: 6215
Good Answers: 248
#14
In reply to #13

Re: Electron Movement Speed Contradiction?

10/10/2008 9:17 AM

The electron (normally only one) that is easily removed from the atom is the one in the outermost orbit, and which because of that orbital distance has the weakest attraction to the nucleus. It IS a normal orbit, with the electron attracted by its opposite charge to the nucleus, more strongly than it is repelled by the other electrons of the same atom. Once that electron has been removed, the remaining group of particles is no longer an atom, but is an ion having a net positive charge, which will attract any nearby electrons.

In a wire carrying a current, there is an electric field pushing/pulling all the electrons in one direction, so an atom that loses an electron and becomes an ion will quickly acquire a replacement electron from a neighboring atom, and once again become an atom.

The electrons never lose their charge; it is their movement that constitutes the electric current.

In my experience, the term stable is normally applied to nuclei, not to atoms. An unstable nucleus is one that can lose a proton or neutron, thereby becoming a different element or isotope.

__________________
Teaching is a great experience, but there is no better teacher than experience.
Register to Reply
Register to Reply 14 comments

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

dkwarner (3); k.dhana (2); Nigh (2); Noma (1); Orpheuse (1); pc (2); TVP45 (3)

Previous in Forum: overcurrent relay grading   Next in Forum: Cable Gland and Low Voltage Control Cable 0.6/1 kV

Advertisement